Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: BTW, the 'John' in verse 1:6 shows us that this 'John' was John the Baptist.

Yes, of course. The disciple John wouldn't have spoken of himself that way, and besides, the context clearly shows the writer is talking about the Baptizer.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Read again John 14:26 and 17:20 The words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses is what counts.

Sure, the words that Jesus spoke and that his disciples wrote down are important. But I believe you are making it say something it doesn't say.

Does it say, "He will teach only you [the disciples] all things"? No, it doesn't.

If I tell someone that I am going teach them all I know about a particular topic, does that mean I will not teach anyone else besides him? Of course not.

The Holy Spirit is also our teacher, and He helps us to remember what Christ said.

Notice what the work of the Spirit would be: first, He would teach you all things; and second, He would bring to the disciples' remembrance all things He had said to them.

Those are two different things, (1)teaching all things and (2) helping them to remember everything Christ had said.

So the Holy Spirit obviously did not teach the disciples all things at that time. In fact, Christ Himself denied that He had taught them everything He had for them. See John 16: 12. Therefore it would require the Holy Spirit to teach both the disciples and other people after Christ returned to heaven, and this is exactly what occurred. Acts, a book you sadly reject, shows us that this is what happened. The Apocalypse is a perfect example of how Christ came and added to the truths that He had taught while on this earth. This is indisputable proof that Christ did not teach the disciples all things while He was on earth.

I think also that you are not taking into account the important fact that it was Christ who spoke through the prophets in the Hebrew Bible. The Holy Spirit is given to us in order to help us understand and remember those words also.

There's the same problem with John 17: 20 from your viewpoint, because it doesn't indicate that people should learn ONLY through the words found in the Gospels. We certainly do believe upon Christ through the words that they wrote about Christ and also the words that Christ Himself spoke, but you will notice that the verse doesn't limit our knowledge of Christ and of the truth to what we learn through the apostle John or the disciple Matthew Levi.

As a matter of fact, Christ's words in John show that Christ could not teach the disciples everything He wanted to teach them, simply because they weren't yet ready. The NT is clear that the disciples weren't ready to bear all of the truth God had for them until after Christ's ascension, and even then they continued to learn more and more as the years went by. John the Beloved was still learning 60 years after Christ had returned to the Father.

[Musicman1228]

Yes, John, they did continue to learn from the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit did not teach them anything that in any way disagreed with what Jesus had taught them while He was here on earth. That is because Jesus and the Holy Spirit and God the Father are of one mind with regarding what is true. That is why everything that we believe that the Holy Spirit has taught since the ascension of Jesus Christ must agree completely with what He taught while here on earth. If it does not then it is not from the true Holy Spirit. God cannot disagree with Himself. Do you not agree with this?

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: Yes, John, they did continue to learn from the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit did not teach them anything that in any way disagreed with what Jesus had taught them while He was here on earth. That is because Jesus and the Holy Spirit and God the Father are of one mind with regarding what is true. That is why everything that we believe that the Holy Spirit has taught since the ascension of Jesus Christ must agree completely with what He taught while here on earth. If it does not then it is not from the true Holy Spirit. God cannot disagree with Himself. Do you not agree with this?

Hey, Doc-- YES, we're in complete agreement here!!! :-)

[Musicman1228]

Right on.

[Musicman1228]

Since this thread is supposed to be talking about prophecy so how about this one:

If there is a true Holy Spirit (and we know there is, this is rhetorical) then is it not likely that Satan would provide a counterfeit spirit that would to all extents and purposes look exactly like what people suppose the Holy Spirit looks and behaves like? And if this proposition is true then how can one tell the difference?

This is important because most Christians believe that they have already experienced the working of the Holy Spirit in their lives when they became "born again". If they believe they have been born again then what are the chances that these Christians would even begin to consider that the spirit that is leading them might not be the one they expect is leading them?

This is a critical discussion be most of us here on the forum believe that we are being lead into prophetic truth by the real Holy Spirit. How do we know "for sure" that this is the case?

[jsm]

MM, consider the following:

Jesus said, “When He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into ALL truth.” JOhn 16:13.

And we also read: “The ENTIRETY of Your word is truth.” Psalms 119:160.

We must also BELIEVE and receive the LOVE of the truth to avoid being deceived. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12.

The danger is for those who choose NOT to accept THE ENTIRE WORD OF GOD.

[jsm]

In the prophecies shown to Daniel, each one describes progressively more information.

Is it possible the last one includes information about the second beast of Revelation 13?

My answer is indubitably, YES!

And it is sandwiched between the first and last rise of the papacy—as also described in Revelation.

Daniel 11:36 is clearly about the papacy:

“Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.”

Compare this with the papacy in Revelation 13:6

“Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.”

Now note characteristics in Daniel 11:38-39 of the United States [u.S.] as it rose to power:

“But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain.”

The U.S. has certainly been blesses above all nations “with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things.”

And while the papacy rose as a religious power, the U.S. rose as a military power: “a god of fortresses.”

It was thus that the U.S. acted against England, then very much “the strongest of fortresses.”

And the U.S. did so with the help of atheistic France—”a foreign god.”

The U.S. became a democracy—not ruled by a pope or king, but by the people—causing “THEM [the people] to rule over” the country.

And only in the U.S. did the government “divide the land for gain” through such things as the Homestead Act, which helped secure Western territories as a “gain” for the entire country.

Then we come to verses 40-41, which apply to FUTURE events, which may begin SOON:

“At [or ‘IN’] the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown.”

The U.S. is the “king of the North” and the “king of the South” will be the strongest non-Christian nation militarily. The countries conquered should be recognized as symbolic.

Also, the word “countries” is supplied by translators, and not in the original. So the meaning is:

“He [the U.S. king of the North] shall also enter the Glorious Land [a symbol of God’s people], and many [people] shall be overthrown.” Compare with Revelation 13:15, where many will be killed.

Then in verses 44-45 we have the transition back to the revived papacy again in charge, and this time more directly controlled by Satan.—as symbolized in Revelation 17 by the scarlet beast:

“But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.”

News from the east represents the military rise of European nations [east of the U.S.]. They will rise to power with the papacy in the closing days of probationary time, destroy the harlot Babylon, and continue until the coming of Christ. Revelation 17:12-16; 19:19.

The city of God is “on the sides of the NORTH.” Psalms 48:1-2. So news from the north represents signs of Christ’s imminent return.

The papacy under the direct control of Satan is symbolized in verse 45. “He shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.”

“Seas” is a symbol for peoples. Revelation 17:15. And “the glorious holy mountain” is the place of God’s throne.

Of Satan’s goals and coming destruction, it was said:

“For you have said in your heart:

      ‘I will ascend into heaven,

      I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;

      I will also sit on the mount of the congregation

      On the farthest sides of the north;

      I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,

      I will be like the Most High.’

      Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,

      To the lowest depths of the Pit.” Isaiah 14:13-15.

Then there is this related prophecy about the papacy “according to the working of Satan” and whom the Lord will consume and destroy at His coming:

“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.” 2 Thessalonians 2:7-9.

“The world is stirred with the spirit of war. The prophecy of the ELEVENTH chapter of DANIEL has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Soon the scenes of trouble spoken of in the prophecies will take place.” 9T 14.

“Soon grievous troubles will arise among the nations,—trouble that will not cease until Jesus comes….The judgments of God are in the land. The wars and rumors of wars, the destruction by fire and flood, say clearly that the time of trouble, which is to increase until the end, is very near at hand. We have no time to lose. The world is stirred with the spirit of war. The prophecies of the ELEVENTH of DANIEL have almost reached their final fulfillment.” EGW in RH 11/24/1904.

[Musicman1228]

MM, consider the following:

Jesus said, “When He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into ALL truth.” JOhn 16:13.

And we also read: “The ENTIRETY of Your word is truth.” Psalms 119:160.

We must also BELIEVE and receive the LOVE of the truth to avoid being deceived. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12.

The danger is for those who choose NOT to accept THE ENTIRE WORD OF GOD.

How can you construe the 'entirety' of Scripture as being THE ENTIRE WORD OF GOD when there was no New Testament when this was written?

[Dr. Rich]

You are looking at a false target. The real target is the Jews. That is where Satan will sit on his throne and all of the religions will be centered there. The first beast that comes out of the sea is like the leopard and bear. Notice that they had their dominion taken away, but still were given life. Rome was toast so it is impossible for this beast to be Rome. This beast is probably the New World Oder controlled by the bankers/Jews with the wounded head. This is why the whole world is deceived. Rome/Catholic church is included in the seven of the major religions represented as the heads with blasphemy mouths--but so is Christianity itself.

When people came up with the same thinking and idea that you now have jsm, it was right after the Protestants broke away from the Catholic church so naturally they came to this conclusion. Problem is, this does not fit the true picture no matter how one wants to pound on it and shove it into the square hole.

[jsm]

MM wrote: "How can you construe the 'entirety' of Scripture as being THE ENTIRE WORD OF GOD when there was no New Testament when this was written?"

The answer consists in what has ALWAYS been the test and procedure:

Isaiah 8:20

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Isaiah 28.10

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.

[Dr. Rich]

jsm, you did NOT answer MM's question. Your attempt was not even close. The issue is 'entirety of scripture'--not the content. You still have not passed 'go'.

[Musicman1228]

MM wrote: "How can you construe the 'entirety' of Scripture as being THE ENTIRE WORD OF GOD when there was no New Testament when this was written?"

The answer consists in what has ALWAYS been the test and procedure:

Isaiah 8:20

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Isaiah 28.10

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.

Jsm,

I agree 100% with those two verses, as long as you apply them only to the Old Testament, which was their intent. If you are including the entire New Testament in those verses then you are making assumptions that cannot be supported by ANY text, either in the OT or in the NT.

Jesus did not quote any verses from the NT because it had not yet been written. The same goes for any of the disciples of Jesus and even Paul. The idea that the NT holds the same weight as the OT as far as being 'God speak' cannot be supported except as a function of wishful thinking.

[jsm]

MM, Sadly your understanding on this is not reasonable. As with rules for any investigation, those verses must apply to ANY writing that is claimed to be Divinely inspired.

[Guest]

That's right. and if the NT didn't agree with the OT, then you would have a problem.

[Musicman1228]

All I am saying is that a blanket acceptance of the New Testament 'just because' everyone has always done it is, to me, not reasonable. The fact is that there are many places in the NT that do not agree with the OT. Not one of those places occurs in any gospel that is written by an eyewitness disciple.

[Guest]

Why don't you show us one or two of "the many" instead of just saying they exist, as if we should just take your word for it.

[jsm]

Rich, please explain WHO is meant by “YOUR PEOPLE” in the following 3 verses:

“Seventy weeks are determined for YOUR PEOPLE and for your holy city.” Daniel 9:24.

“Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to YOUR PEOPLE in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come.” Daniel 10:14.

“At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of YOUR PEOPLE; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time.

“And at that time YOUR PEOPLE shall be delivered, EVERY ONE WHO IS FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK.” Daniel 12:1.

Also, What BOOK is this?

[wayfinder]

"Your People"=the kingdom of heaven. There were three kingdom of heaven periods. The first were those taken out of Egypt and the covenant was established at Mt. Horeb. This covenant was broken by the kingdom and ultimately ended officially by God and the people of the kingdom were expelled from the promised land. The second kingdom was promised, but the new covenant was never ratified by Daniel's people. This kingdom of promise ran out of time in 33 C.E. The third kingdom appeared in 1843-44. This kingdom were those people who went out to meet the Bridegroom and they are the kingdom of heaven today. This kingdom has promised to keep the covenant (the Ten Commandments). Think of the kingdom of heaven as the sheep pen. This sheep pen is filled with people of the covenant, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.

[Dr. Rich]

jsm wrote: "MM, Sadly your understanding on this is not reasonable. As with rules for any investigation, those verses must apply to ANY writing that is claimed to be Divinely inspired."

Well jsm, Sadly the world is really in a pickle because of people who believe like you do--just look at all of the religions out there that believe their prophet/apostle's words were and are Divinely inspired! Ever try to debate with a Muslim? How about a Buddhist? Why not take on a Mormon or one who practices in Scientology?

That is why there is a standard to measure everything, YES everything anyone says or writes! That standard is the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses as found in John 14:26, 17:19-20. And of course the OT was verified by these same words. IF you use this rule for any and all of your investigation, then you shall find the real truth.

[jsm]

Rich, I am amazed and disappointed that you could make such an absurd statement. Why?

[jsm]

Wyf, The phrase, “kingdom of HEAVEN” is found 31 times in the Bible, and ALWAYS in the book of Matthew.

The ancient kingdom of Israel was an EARTHLY kingdom, and NOT the kingdom of HEAVEN. It is this EARTHLY kingdom that was called “your people” in Daniel 9:24 and given a 490 year probationary period.

Is it possible Jesus was talking about the “kingdom of HEAVEN” when He told Pilate:

“MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD”? John 18:36.

Was Jesus talking about the “kingdom of HEAVEN” when He said:

“When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory…Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, ‘Come, ye blessed of My Father INHERIT THE KINGDOM prepared for you from the foundation of the world.’” Matthew 25:31, 34.

Is it possible the “kingdom of HEAVEN” has been offered to ALL from Adam on down, on an INDIVIDUAL basis, through a PERSONAL relationship with our Savior?

“And I say to you, that many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.” Matthew 8:11.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ’Lord, Lord,’ shall ENTER the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN; but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” Matthew 7:21.

“And [Jesus] said, Assuredly, I say to you, Unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.” Matthew 18:3.

[LifeHiscost]

We have the power through the words of Jesus to decide what is truth and what is not.

I doubt if the meaning of this sentence above is truly what you believe or meant. Perhaps if the word underlined were replaced with the word "understand", it would reflect what you actually believe. If that is not the case, and my own objection is misplaced, I would have to respectfully disagree with your conclusion, as eternal "Truth" from everlasting was decided from the beginning by Almighty God in the person of His Son, and "present truth" is decided by God as it unfolds. All fallen humanbeings can do is decide to accept or reject what Truth has already been decided.

"Jesus said to him, “I am....the truth...." John 14:6 NKJV

"But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief."1 Thess 5:4 NKJV

"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority."John 7:17 NKJV

Regards!!

[LifeHiscost]

http://endtimesurprise.blogspot.com/

I also have read some and perused all of the above designated as a refreshing of earlier studies of the same. While this second reading is important to a correct and fuller understanding of the days we surely live in, the blog largely makes me aware all over again that my safety for the present and the future lies in the recognition that the righteousness of Christ freely given to replace my own undone condition, is my only hope.

"...that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”" 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 NKJV

Joy!!

[LifeHiscost]

Once again, (and I'm typing as slow as I can) Here's the link to the p-a-p-e-r.

http://endtimesurprise.blogspot.com/

Whenever there is an important issue that our Father wishes His people to learn and understand, the enemy of souls is ready to use whatever individuals he can, to manipulate, to interject side issues that avoid and draw away the attention to that which adds no light or strength to His chosen.

As an example.

"But one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, who would betray Him, said, “Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it." John 12:4-6 NKJV

Jesus response is always the same in principle, but as has been seen in this thread, not necessarily heeded by all.

"But Jesus said, "Let her alone; why do you bother her? She has done a good deed to Me."Mark 14:6 NKJV

Regards!!