Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[Ron Lambert]

jsm--"after these things" does not point to the close of the judgment, but to its beginning. Perhaps you are misled by the traditional view that the seven churches refer to historical periods in the church. I have pointed out before how this view is contradicted by such passages as Rev. 2:23, when Jesus says that by the test over Jezebel He will bring to the church of Thyatira, "all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts." (NKJV) Now, how could the believers in Ephesus learn from the experience of Thyatira, if Thyatira were hundreds of years in the future from Ephesus?

The proper application of the prophecies of the seven churches is to the time immediately before the start of the Judgment of the Living. Notice this promise made to the church of Philadelphia: "I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." (Rev. 3:10; NKJV) This could only refer to the time of the final conflict when all the world is tested over the Mark of the Beast--which comes during the Judgment of the Living. Notice here that the "hour of trial" is yet future.

Then in Rev. chapter four the focus is on the setting of the Judgment, and chapter five shows us the Judgment taking place. This would be the whole Judgment, inclusive of the Judgment of the Living.

John317--as jsm said, there is clear indication of a judgment process taking place in chapter five. Many references are made to a process of searching to find who is worthy to open the book. We are told "no man was found worthy to open and to read the book." (v. 4) But then in verse five we find that the Lion of the tribe of Judah (Jesus) has been found to be worthy to open the book.

True, the word judgment is not used, but then the words "coronation" or "inauguration" are not there either, and Stephanovic and others still maintain the chapter is talking about the inauguration of Christ upon His Ascension. This interpretation should not be considered for more than a brief moment, enough to note that John wrote Revelation nearly 70 years after the Ascension of Christ. Since Rev. 4:1 clearly says everything in the following chapters is future, they could not be referring to something that happend 70 years in the past.

jsm--about the 24 elders. You are assuming they are humans. Some people have suggested they are Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and presumably 21 other notables who were resurrected at the time when Jesus was Resurrected (Matt. 27:52). But the manuscripts from which the KJV was translated seems to have the pronoun "us" inserted, probably by some Christian scribe who thought he was clarifying things. But other manuscripts, which modern translators regard as more reliable, omit this pronoun. The rules of Greek grammar dictate that "men" should be understood as implied. Thus such translations as the NASB render the passage: "Worthy art Thou to take the book, and to break its seals; for Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. And Thou hast made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." (vs. 9, 10; NASB)

The latter translation distances the elders from humans. It would be inappropriate for humans to be sitting in on their own judgment, already wearing crowns (Rev. 4:4), when their worthiness to wear crowns and sit on thrones is what is to be determined by the Judgment. I think these 24 elders are representatives of other races; other "Adams" from other worlds. Notice that they act in concert with the "four creatures" who clearly are not humans (v. 8; see descriptions of the four creatures in Rev. 4:6). Notice that it is not just the 24 elders who sing this, but ALSO THE FOUR CREATURES. They could not possibly say that God has redeemed them! (Note that these four creatures also were seen in Ezekiel's vision in Ezekiel 1:5-10.)

[jsm]

Ron,

I know you are anxious to have your interpretations accepted; but please be more accurate.

Example:

You say I consider the 24 elders to be humans based on Rev 5:10.

Please show where I made that claim. I am aware of the discrepancy there that you describe.

The following is what I wrote above:

The 24 elders are wearing white robes of victory. Revelation 3:5; 19:8.

They are made white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14.

This can only apply to redeemed sinners; and they would not be sitting in heaven with the Father at the coronation ceremony.

The Bible describes angels in white, but not wearing crowns. The 24 elders have both, and they are humans.

As EGW wrote: "Those who, through faith in the merits of the blood of Christ, have clean hands and a pure heart, will receive the white robe, the crown of righteousness, and the life that will run parallel with the life of God." ST 12/23/1889.

===

Do you believe EGW was inspired by God? Consider Rev 4-5 coming at the end of the IJ based no the following:

E. G. White clearly believed the blotting out of sins will take place AT THE END of the investigative judgment.

Note carefully that "the actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by the removal, or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded. But BEFORE this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books of record to determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement." GC 421.

Notice again that this blotting out is in the future, and involves just THE BOOK OF LIFE:

"Time is fast hastening on, and every work will SOON be brought into judgment, and EITHER our SINS or our NAMES will be blotted out of THE BOOK OF LIFE." YI 1-13-1898.

"The day is just upon us when the righteous shall be bound like precious grain in bundles for the heavenly garner, while the wicked are, like the tares, gathered for the fires of the last great day." 5T 100.

"The tares are permitted to grow among the wheat, to have all the advantage of sun and shower; but in the time of harvest ye shall "return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not." Mal. 3:18. Christ Himself will decide who are worthy to dwell with the family of heaven. He will judge every man according to his words and his works. Profession is as nothing in the scale. It is character that decides destiny." COL 074.

As the IJ is coming to a close, and the living are being considered, Christ will take the sealed Book of Life from His Father in preparation to blotting out either sins or names. “Christ Himself will decide.” He ALONE can make that final decision. John 5:22, 27. And He does so AT THE END-TIME OF THE Investigative Judgment.

This is described in Revelation 4-11.

[Ron Lambert]

jsm--you still are claiming that the 24 elders are humans, correct? And you base that on the fact that they wear white robes. Can no one else in heaven but the redeemed wear white robes? What about beings from other worlds who have never fallen being worthy to wear white robes?

I would point again to the fact that it is not only the 24 elders who sing thanks to God for redeeming humans, but also the four creatures sing this same song with them (Rev. 5:8, 9). So the older translations that have the 24 elders AND FOUR CREATURES praising God for redeeming "them" cannot be correct. Well, the translations may technically have been correct, but they went by the wrong set of ancient manuscripts.

The seven seals of the book are opened during the Judgment. Notice that it is during the fifth seal that the martyrs from past ages are given white robes. Here this is clearly talking about the white robes that symbolize justification. As I have compared these prophecies to history after 1844, this is yet future. In fact, my conclusion is that the fith seal signals to us the start of the Judgment of the Living, when the martyrs of past ages who cry out for executive Judgment to punish those who murder God's people, are told to wait a little longer until their brethren, their fellow martyrs from the final conflict during the Judgment of the Living, join them in their witness.

In Revelation 4:4, the Judgment is just being set up. The 24 elders are said to be wearing white robes, and crowns. It is impossible for them to be humans, and already be wearing crowns, before the Judgment has been concluded to determine their worthiness to receive crowns. So they must not be humans. And their white robes signify the righteousness of people from other worlds that have never fallen.

It is not that I wish to insist upon my own interpretation. Rather, I believe the interpretation that I have put forward is the only one that can be correct, based on the textual evidence.

[wayfinder]

They are called "Elders"(Presbuteros)in Greek. Elders generally means advanced in age and wise by implication and by experience, it seems highly unlikely that this would be applied to angels or beings from other solar systems. The crowns they wear are "Stephanos", this is the crown of victory, again it seems highly unlikely that angels or beings from other solar systems would wear a victory crowm. Crowns worn by any other would most likely be "diadema", which is the crown of authority. In their responses,the 24 Elders appear to respond as a jury of peers.

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, " The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,

17 saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.

18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

The is ample evidence to prove that there are humans in heaven, Enoch, Elijah, Moses and possibly others who were unmentioned in writ. At the time of Christ's death tombs of saints were opened and the dead saints walked out. Where did these resurrected saints go, were they left to live in a strange world until they died again, I don't think so. There is only one rational and logical answer as to where these resurrected saints went, they went to heaven. It is my understanding that these must the ones who are called the 24 elders. I imagine that Daniel is standing, or sitting, in his place right now, observing all that is going on here on earth.

Matthew 27:52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised ;

[jsm]

Wayfinder, that is a very logical response about the 24 elders. Thank you.

It points out a difficulty for those who believe Revelation 4-5 refers to the coronation ceremony of Christ following His ascension. Humans could not then be sitting on those thrones.

[jsm]

My End-time Survival paper contains much from both the Bible and EGW on Revelation 4-11. This is not the same as my Endtime Surprise paper.

end-timesurvival.blogspot.com

Compare with: endtimesurprise.blogspot.com/

Some may also be interested in this: Can I Be Sure of Heaven?

This is not the same as my Will I Be In Heaven? paper.

canibesureofheaven.blogspot.com

Compare with: loveisthegoal.blogspot.com/

[Ron Lambert]

I can only ask again: How could the four creatures (beasts in the KJV) sing WITH the 24 elders, "Worthy art Thou to take the book, and to break its seals; for Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood [KJV here says "us"; NASB and others say "men"] from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. And Thou hast made [KJV says "us"; NASB and others say "them"] to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and [KJV says "we"; NASB and others say "they"] will reign upon the earth." (Rev. 5:9-10)

PLEASE EXPLAIN VERSES 8-9: "And when He had taken the book, THE FOUR LIVING CREATURES AND the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying...."

jsm, wayfinder, anyone who would maintain that the 24 elders are humans--please explain the fact that the four creatures also sing this song. DO YOU MAINTAIN THAT THE FOUR CREATURES ARE HUMANS? It is absolutely impossible to maintain your position, if you cannot show that the four creatures are humans as well. Note that these four creatures were also seen by Ezekiel. So if they are humans, how did they get into heaven? Ezekiel saw them before the Resurrection of Jesus.

[Ron Lambert]

By the way, Wayfinder, you say that only humans could wear a "crown of victory," and angels and unfallen beings on other worlds could not. Have you forgotten that there was war in heaven (see Rev. 12:7), and Satan and his followers were cast out? This was a victory over Satan, and victors deserve to wear a crown of victory.

In trying to prove your position, you make arbitrary assertions that are not necessarily true. Please have more respect for what the text actually says, and account for all of it, not just selected portions of it.

[jsm]

Both Daniel 7 and Revelation 4 show angels present in abundance, but they are not qualified to sit in judgment over men. Why? Because they are not our peers – they lack the qualifying experience.

God the Father is shown as presiding Judge in the INVESTIGATION phase; but Jesus said “the Father judges no one.” John 5:22. Why? Because He also lacks the qualifying experience.

Humans qualify to sit in on the INVESTIGATION because they are our peers.

Christ is described as being "in the midst of the throne" during the investigation. Revelation 5:6.

How does He qualify?

Christ “HAD TO BE MADE LIKE HIS BRETHREN,” and HE ALONE has been made our Judge “BECAUSE HE IS THE SON OF MAN.” – our peer.

“For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son…For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, [WHY?] BECAUSE HE IS THE SON OF MAN.” John 5:22, 26-27.

“Therefore, in all things HE HAD TO BE MADE LIKE HIS BRETHREN, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.” Hebrews 2:17.

Notice how that qualification allows JESUS ALONE to take the Revelation 5 scroll:

“So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, ‘Do not weep. Behold, [JESUS] the Lion OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.’” Revelation 5:4-5.

“Christ has been made our Judge. The Father is not the Judge. The angels are not. HE WHO TOOK HUMANITY UPON HIMSELF, and in this world lived a perfect life, IS TO JUDGE US. He ONLY can be our Judge.” 9T 185.

Now notice how “THE ASSEMBLED SAINTS” ARE PRESENT when Christ unrolls the scroll in “THE GRAND REVIEW of the JUDGMENT" to take place during the testing time in the very near future. EGW in BT 12/1/1911.

“You have made little effort to become a loyal and intelligent Christian. How, then, will you be prepared to pass THE GRAND REVIEW, where all your deeds and words, and the inmost thoughts of your heart, will be laid open before the great Judge and the assembled SAINTS and angels? 4T 116.

“Only the work accomplished by much prayer, which is sanctified by the merit of Christ, will stand THE TEST OF THE JUDGMENT. When THE GRAND REVIEW shall take place, then shall ye return and discern between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.” EGW in RH

“All will have an opportunity to educate themselves while in this world, that they may be fitted to stand THE GRAND REVIEW which must SHORTLY take place.” EGW in 2/14/1887.

Notice the work of Satan during this time:

“Are we prepared for THE GRAND REVIEW? It is coming on. Satan is gathering all of his beautiful knowledge that he had when he was an angel of light and he is coming in to deceive the very elect with that very knowledge, and we want to be in a position where we can work intelligently,—where we can work in faith and bring souls to a knowledge of the truth of THE GRAND REVIEW that will take place when he tells them that he is going to have the whole world as his subjects and they will gather under his banner, but we must stand higher.” EGW in LLM 541.

Notice the stated importance for us to "bring souls to a knowledge of the truth of THE GRAND REVIEW."

This GRAND REVIEW takes place when Christ takes the scroll and opens it in heaven at the end period of the IJ. This is described in Revelation 4-11.

[wayfinder]

Ron, thank you for you kind reply.

As far as angels wearing crowns, I have not found any text where it is revealed that angels wear crowns of any kind, if you know of any please post. I agree with you about the outcome of the war in heaven and that victory was attained by Michael. I see a connection with Michael's victory and the first seal, "He was given a crown and a bow. The crown He was given was the "victory" crown and may pertain to His victory in the war in heaven, which is tied to His victory on earth. The four living creatures are not human, but one has the face of a man. What these creatures are is open to interpretation, but they do seem to accompany God and His throne wherever He travels. Notice in the following texts that the four living creatures Ezekiel sees are very simmilar, if not the same ones John sees.

Ezekiel 1:10 As for the form of their faces, each had the face of a man ; all four had the face of a lion on the right and the face of a bull on the left, and all four had the face of an eagle.

Revelation 4:7 The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle

Ezekiel 1:17 Whenever they moved, they moved in any of their four directions without turning as they moved.

18 As for their rims they were lofty and awesome, and the rims of all four of them were full of eyes round about.

19 Whenever the living beings moved, the wheels moved with them. And whenever the living beings rose from the earth, the wheels rose also.

20 Wherever the spirit was about to go, they would go in that direction . And the wheels rose close beside them; for the spirit of the living beings was in the wheels.

21 Whenever those went, these went ; and whenever those stood still, these stood still. And whenever those rose from the earth, the wheels rose close beside them; for the spirit of the living beings was in the wheels.

Daniel witnesses the setting up of thrones around the throne of the Ancient of Days. These can only be for new arrivals, any eternal beings would already have a seat around the throne. The setting up of thrones immediately preceeds the seating of the count and the opening of the books. Notice that the horn with eyes and a mouth is speaking blasphemous words at the time these thrones are set. Angels are present when these thrones are set, but only seem to have any special part in the proceedings.

Daniel 7:9 "I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat ; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.

10 "A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened.

11 "Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking ; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire.

Revelation 4:4 NAS

Around the throne were twenty-four thrones ; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

I do not see a problem with the four living creatures joining with the 24 elders in recognition of the worthiness of the Lamb, this may be witnesses from heaven and earth, which would make sense in this context.

[Ron Lambert]

Wayfinder, my point is that the non-human four creatures could not sing a song saying: "For You were slain, And have redeemed US to God by Your blood." Jesus only shed His blood for the children of Adam. And I might add, that if the 24 elders were humans they would not sing it the way the NASB and other translations do, based on ancient manuscripts that did not have "us" inserted: "Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood MEN from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. And Thou hast made THEM to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and THEY will reign upon the earth."

So whichever translation you go by, the view that the 24 elders are humans is contradicted. If you go by the KJV rendering, then the four non-human creatures could not sing the song with humans, so it is apparent that the manuscripts with the inserted "us" have to be wrong. If you go by the NASB rendering, then humans would not have distanced themselves saying God has made "THEM to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and that "THEY will reign upon the earth."

The only conclusion that fits ALL the requirements of the text is that both the four creatures and the 24 elders are non-humans. I am not inferring anything about crowns or robes. I am going by what the text explicitly says.

By the way, since, as has been acknowledged, Jesus alone has been given the right to Judge, everyone else is there as witnesses. I don't recall saying that the 24 elders are there to judge. I said they are "sitting in". At some point I may have used the word, "preside."

[wayfinder]

I understand what you are saying now.

My understanding is that the kingdom of heaven is the key to restoration. There have been two kingdoms of promise, both failed to accomplish restoration. The third and final kingdom was born in 1844 and we are told that this kingdom will be triumphant over the kingdom of the world. The kingdom is given by God to those who will enter. Those who enter do so because they have been purchased by the blood of the lamb and have been born of the water of baptizm and completed the scantification process, which is perfected in truth. Notice in the following text that the time came when the saints "took possession of" the kingdom. The designation "kingdom of God" is given to the saints and they take possession of it. The 24 elders are not a part of the saints when they take possession of the kingdom. I know this is a technicality, but that seems to be what we are doing is comparing details.

Daniel 7:22 NAS

until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

Taking possession of the kingdom is not the same thing as the kingdom triumphant. One must be in the kingdom before the kingdom can go out to conquer. Revelation 12:17 states that the dragon went off to prepare for war against the last of the offspring of the righteous woman.

I must go for now, looking forward to your thoughts.

[Ron Lambert]

I believe God's purpose can never be thwarted, only temporarily delayed. I also believe in only one Everlasting Covenant (which has been misunderstood at various times), and in only one Kingdom. This Kingdom for a time has been "not of this world," as Jesus said (John 18:36). In other worlds, the Kingdom of faith in Christ, who makes us heirs of the Kingdom in Him. The Kingdom in actual realization when its members are numbered and finalized as citizens, is received by Jesus in the Judgment (Daniel 7:13, 14). The faithful of earth are received up into Heaven to receive the Kingdom themselves in physical possession, at the Second Coming of Jesus, when we receive our rewards. But there has ever only been one true Kingdom--the Kingdom of God. There is but one Kingdom that God will set up, as symbolized by the rock cut out without hands that strikes the metal image in the feet in the end of time, and grows up into a mountain, in the prophecy of Daniel two. The only other kingdom is the kingdom of Satan (Matt. 12:26; see also Eph. 2:2). It is the false kingdom of the usurper, and it will fall, and at last be gone forever.

[wayfinder]

The kingdom of the heavens is in the world, but not of the world. The kingdom is like a sheep pen before it has any sheep in it. The Son of God received an empty sheep pen(kingdom) and was told He was worthy to fill it with men from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. When the saints take possession of the kingdom is when they filled it. The saints don't receive the kingdom at the second comming, because it is the kingdom that triumphs at the seventh trumpet, the second comming does not occur until the seventh bowl of wrath. It is the kingdom of God that the devil makes war with durring the great tribulation. The 144,000 are the priests and the five wise bridesmaids are the people of the kingdom(holy people). The elders and four living creatures are in heaven, not on earth, therefore they are not in the world where the kingdom is.

[jsm]

Revelation 4-5 may properly be compared with Hebrews 12:22-24

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,

23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, [names listed in the sealed book]

to God the Judge of all, [God the Father]

to the spirits of just men made perfect, [humans already in heaven]

24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. [symbolized by “a Lamb as though it had been slain.”]

This also compares with Daniel 7:9-10, 13-14 EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT “THE BLOOD OF SPRINKLING” IS NOT SYMBOLIZED THERE.

“Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies and there appears in the presence of God to engage in the last acts of His ministration in behalf of man--to perform the work of investigative judgment AND TO MAKE AN ATONEMENT [by blotting out sins] for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits.” GC 479.

Sins are blotted out AT THE END of the IJ for the dead. For the living it is after they have been tested.

“The actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by the removal, or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded. BUT BEFORE this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books of record to determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement.” GC 421.

FOR THE LIVING:

“Each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.” 1 Corinthians 3:13.

“To all the testing time will come. By the sifting of temptation the genuine Christian will be revealed.” GC 625.

“The time is not far distant when the test will come to every soul. The mark of the beast will be urged upon us.” 5T 81.

“While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God.” GC 605.

[wayfinder]

Revelation 11:1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff ; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.

2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations ; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

When the judgment of those who sleep in death has been completed, the testing/measuring of the living starts. The above text implies three groups in this measuring. One group serves at the altar the other worships at the temple and the third group is the nations(gentiles). The message to Philadelphia contains the information that those who wait(patient endurance) will be kept from the testing time that test those who dwell on the earth. This would indicate that there are some among the living at the time of the end that will be sealed before the testing time.

Revelation 3:10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

11 'I am coming quickly ; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore ; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

Appearently this message is directed to the 144,000 and would indicate that this group is sealed first(the group at the altar) and this takes place before the testing time for the world.

[jsm]

WF, we are in major agreement about your last paragraph conclusion.

I believe testing and sealing of the 144,000 will take place primarily during Revelation 6 events.

Testing time in general extends as the trumpets of warning are symbolically blown.

[jsm]

As troubles increase, we need to recognize that they originate with Satan. God sets the limits, but Satan causes the troubles.

God does not Himself tempt anyone. James 1:13.

This is the way it was for righteous Job:

Job 1:9-12

Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

This is the way it is for all who “choose their own way.”

"I was shown that the judgments of God would NOT come DIRECTLY out from the Lord upon the wicked but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection...He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them." Manuscripts Releases, Vol.14,3.1

Genesis 6:3

And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever.”

[John317]

Quote:

jsm: "I was shown that the judgments of God would NOT come DIRECTLY out from the Lord upon the wicked but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection...He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them." Manuscripts Releases, Vol.14,3.1

What's the context of that statement? Isn't it concerning the time in which we are now living?

Or do you believe that statement applies to all the judgments of God from the time of Adam down to the end of the one thousand years?

[karl]

Quote:

jsm: "I was shown that the judgments of God would NOT come DIRECTLY out from the Lord upon the wicked but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection...He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them." Manuscripts Releases, Vol.14,3.1

What's the context of that statement? Isn't it concerning the time in which we are now living?

Or do you believe that statement applies to all the judgments of God from the time of Adam down to the end of the one thousand years?

"Trees, buildings, rocks, and earth, were hurled in every direction. The terror of man and beast was beyond description. And even Satan himself, who was compelled to be amid the warring elements, feared for his own existence." 1SP 74

Was Satan in charge of administering God's judgment in the flood? Why, then, would he fear for his own existence?

[John317]

Quote:

karl:

"Trees, buildings, rocks, and earth, were hurled in every direction. The terror of man and beast was beyond description. And even Satan himself, who was compelled to be amid the warring elements, feared for his own existence." 1SP 74

Was Satan in charge of administering God's judgment in the flood? Why, then, would he fear for his own existence?

Yes, good point. I've often wondered the same thing before. It doesn't sound at all like Satan had things under control there, does it.

I noticed also that it says, significantly, that Satan was "compelled," or forced, to remain amid the warring elements when he obviously would have wanted very much to be elsewhere.

[jsm]

“DESTROY” is a complex topic, and my post was poorly written. I am not prepared to give an adequate explanation.

I do believe that God is fully in charge, and there are clearly times that God has destroyed; and He will again destroy. He also sets limits for the destruction caused by Satan.

Satan is called the destroyer (Rev 9:11), and clearly caused the problems for Job.

And people are included in “those who destroy the earth.” Rev 11:18.

But it is Christ who will “destroy those who destroy the earth.” Ibid.

As for the flood, it is God who said, “I WILL DESTROY.”

Genesis 6:13

And God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I WILL DESTROY THEM WITH THE EARTH.

As for that EGW statement posted above, it is clear to me that she is referring to what God will ALLOW Satan to do:

“He [God] warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if they choose their own way, then He does NOT commission His angels to PREVENT Satan's decided attacks upon them.”

Consider also the following:

“Satan delights in war, for it excites the worst passions of the soul and then sweeps into eternity its victims steeped in vice and blood. It is his object to incite the nations to war against one another, for he can thus divert the minds of the people from the work of preparation to stand in the day of God.

“Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows...Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them.” GC 589.

[phkrause]

Yes, good point. I've often wondered the same thing before. It doesn't sound at all like Satan had things under control there, does it.

I noticed also that it says, significantly, that Satan was "compelled," or forced, to remain amid the warring elements when he obviously would have wanted very much to be elsewhere.

I have to second that thought John.

Very good point Karl.

pk

[jsm]

Who are “the four living creatures” and “the twenty-four elders” of Revelation 4?

I believe it is clear from Ezekiel that “the four living creatures” are angels with special responsibilities. This also seems evident when one of them hands out the “bowls full of the wrath of God.” Revelation 15:7. No human would be given that responsibility.

I believe it can be shown “the twenty-four elders” are humans.

Their words and actions are consistent with what saved humans would say and do.

Newer versions of Revelation 5:10 seem to separate the elders from those saved, when the elders call those saved “them” and “they”.

But consider this:

The Israelite John who wrote about the 24 elders in Revelation calls himself an elder. 2 John 1:1; 3 John 1:1.

All through the Old Testament God calls the Israelites “My people.”

But a time was coming when God would include people from every nation among His people:

Romans 9:25-26

As He says also in Hosea: “I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved.” “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

Notice how that applies in Revelation 5:8-10 NIV

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song:

"You are worthy to take the scroll

and to open its seals,

because you were slain,

and with your blood you purchased men for God

from every tribe and language and people and nation.

You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,

and they will reign on the earth."

The 24 elders of Revelation would be from the OT “My people” Jesus took to heaven with Him. It is reasonable for them to use “they” and “them” when speaking of all the saved “from every tribe and language and people and nation.”

Compare with Revelation 7:9-14.

[wayfinder]

There is another text in Revelation, that shows that Satan is allow to torment/torture.

Revelation 9:4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months ; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

Revelation 9:11 They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss ; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

The angel king of the abyss is Satan and he is allowed to "hurt" only those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. This occurs during the last five months of the time of the trumpets.