Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[Musicman1228]

Amen JOHNNBOY, good info there. Thanks!

The king didn't do the translating Rich. The fact that the king may or may not have been evil, has nothing to do with whether God was with the translators or not.

I told you to bring proof, and all you have is more empty words that mean nothing.

Richard, you are gullible and misinformed, and it is painfully obvious that you have not done any research into the origins of the KJV or the New Testament. Please educate yourself before you make statements that have no basis in fact.

[wayfinder]

Quote:

Every one of God's years in the 7 years of the Sabbatical cycle of years, began just as God told Moses in Exodus 12:2 “This month [shall be] unto you the beginning of months: it [shall be] the first month of the year to you.” I repeat, therefore, the first day of this first month which would be the day of the new moon, would be the first day of the year.

OK, lets do this step by step.

How were the people to know which month was the first month of the year (use only the moon, not the sun)? A month starts on a new moon and ends the night of the next new moon. A month was not calculated using the sun, other than needing the light of the sun to operate the phases of the moon. The sun is needed for the calculating of days weeks and years.

Daniel 4:23 'In that the king saw an angelic watcher, a holy one, descending from heaven and saying, " Chop down the tree and destroy it; yet leave the stump with its roots in the ground, but with a band of iron and bronze around it in the new grass of the field, and let him be drenched with the dew of heaven, and let him share with the beasts of the field until * seven periods of time pass over him,"

Strong's Number: 5732

Transliterated Word `iddan (Aramaic)

Definition

time

time (of duration)

year

Daniel 7:25 'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law ; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

This verse contains two words that are translated into English as "time". The first word "time" is different than the last three, in Aramaic. My question is, how does one calculate the beginning and ending of a time/year and a half a time by using the moon only. A time is one revolution of the earth around the sun and begins at the point of equal light and dark periods. A half time is half of the orbit or the time from spring equinox to fall equinox.

The Watcher/angel told king Nebuchadnezzar that "seven times" would pass over, in other words, seven years and these were not calculated by the moon, but by the sun.

The first month and the first day of the first month was not the start of the year, but the start of the first month of the feast year. The moon along with the day was used to determine the time of the feasts. A year is not a certain number of months or days or weeks, it is a time, the time it takes the earth to orbit the sun and arrive back at it's starting point again.

[Johnnboy]

Quote:

Every one of God's years in the 7 years of the Sabbatical cycle of years, began just as God told Moses in Exodus 12:2 “This month [shall be] unto you the beginning of months: it [shall be] the first month of the year to you.” I repeat, therefore, the first day of this first month which would be the day of the new moon, would be the first day of the year.

OK, lets do this step by step.

How were the people to know which month was the first month of the year (use only the moon, not the sun)? A month starts on a new moon and ends the night of the next new moon. A month was not calculated using the sun, other than needing the light of the sun to operate the phases of the moon. The sun is needed for the calculating of days weeks and years.

Daniel 7:25 'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law ; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

This verse contains two words that are translated into English as "time". The first word "time" is different than the last three, in Aramaic. My question is, how does one calculate the beginning and ending of a time/year and a half a time by using the moon only. A time is one revolution of the earth around the sun and begins at the point of equal light and dark periods. A half time is half of the orbit or the time from spring equinox to fall equinox.

The Watcher/angel told king Nebuchadnezzar that "seven times" would pass over, in other words, seven years and these were not calculated by the moon, but by the sun.

The first month and the first day of the first month was not the start of the year, but the start of the first month of the feast year. The moon along with the day was used to determine the time of the feasts. A year is not a certain number of months or days or weeks, it is a time, the time it takes the earth to orbit the sun and arrive back at it's starting point again.

Wayfinder asked: “How were the people to know which month was the first month of the year.”

Answer: When God stated to Moses and Aaron in Egypt, “This shall be the beginning of months, this shall be the FIRST month of the YEAR to you.” Exodus 12:2.

This statement from God is so straight and plain, that NO MISTAKE could be made.

This first month began with the new moon on or after the spring equinox, so that there could be ripe barley for the 16th day of this month to wave in the Wave Sheaf, as has been stated before.

The spring equinox was definitely scheduled by the sun and the perturbations of the earth in its rotation around the sun. But the first month of the year did not begin until the first new moon, which could be on or after the spring equinox. Therefore, the sun and the moon are used to determine the beginning of God's year.

Wayfinder stated: “A time is one revolution of the earth around the sun and begins at the point of equal light and dark periods.”

What would keep one from beginning the year at the time of the autumnal equinox then? God's year does not begin when any of us decide to start the year. HE ONLY CAN STATE WHEN THE YEAR BEGINS, and HE DOES in Exodus 12:2, and He states that this is for us, by saying, “the first month of the year TO YOU.” And He is talking to YOU.

From the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy one can find only one method for calculating God's year; there is not one method for calculating the feast day schedule and another method for calculating the year.

Line up the statements from the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy that state that the year begins on the day of the spring equinox, then line up the statements that show that the year begins with the first month. You can make a decision very easily on the weight of the evidence. Which list do the majority of the texts fall under?

[Guest]

Wayfinder asked: How were the people to know which month was the first month of the year.

Answer: When God stated to Moses and Aaron in Egypt, This shall be the beginning of months, this shall be the FIRST month of the YEAR to you. Exodus 12:2.

This statement from God is so straight and plain, that NO MISTAKE could be made.

Took the mystery right out of that question, huh? That's pretty straight forward.

[wayfinder]

It appears that you are misunderstanding me. I have no argument with the first month of the year being the first new moon that falls on or after the spring equinox. What I am saying is that the months do not effect the yearly cycle. I pointed out that the Gregorian calendar "year" is determined only by months, where January 1st is always the beginning of a new year. The month of Nisan is the first month of the year, but this month does not determing when the year would start.

My point is this. When God gives time periods in prophecy, He uses different units of measure. Time times and half a time are three and a half years. these years start on the spring equinox (in the northern hemisphere) and end on the fall equinox three and a half years later. When months are used, as in Revelation 9 and 11, these rely on the moon to determine the length of time. 42 months would begin on a new moon and end at the time of the 43rd consecutive new moon.

And then there is the function of the restoration calendar, but that is another subject.

[Johnnboy]

It appears that you are misunderstanding me. I have no argument with the first month of the year being the first new moon that falls on or after the spring equinox. What I am saying is that the months do not effect the yearly cycle. I pointed out that the Gregorian calendar "year" is determined only by months, where January 1st is always the beginning of a new year. The month of Nisan is the first month of the year, but this month does not determing when the year would start.

My point is this. When God gives time periods in prophecy, He uses different units of measure. Time times and half a time are three and a half years. these years start on the spring equinox (in the northern hemisphere) and end on the fall equinox three and a half years later. When months are used, as in Revelation 9 and 11, these rely on the moon to determine the length of time. 42 months would begin on a new moon and end at the time of the 43rd consecutive new moon.

And then there is the function of the restoration calendar, but that is another subject.

God gives NO other beginning point for the year, than the new moon of the first month. The theories you presented are not found in the Bible, they are only human conjectures.

The fulfillments of the 42 month prophecy in literal time, that have already occurred, began on one of the feast days of the old sanctuary system, and ended 3 ½ years later, on another one of the feast days. None of them began on the new moon and ended on a new moon.

An example of this is the 70th week of Daniel's 70-week prophecy (Daniel 9:24), which began on the Day of Atonement in the Jubilee year (Luke 4:16-21), in 27 C.E., and ended in the middle of the week of years (Daniel 9:27), 3 ½ years later, on the Passover, in 31 C.E.

Another 42 months in literal time occurred at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. The Roman general, Cestius, surrounded the city while the Jews were observing the Feast of Tabernacles. 3 ½ years later, the seige was resumed by Titus during the time of the Passover.

[Dr. Rich]

JB, are you saying that God's year starts on a different time each year? Are you kidding me? God's years would be the same every year, just as a day has 24 hours and God's day starts when sun sets (not our 12 midnight), so does God's year start and end exactly the same time every year. This is what is called the Spring Equinox. Come on man, let's use some common sense, if there IS such a thing anymore.

[skyblue888]

musicman, the parable of Matt.22, of the wedding garment, had a partial fulfilment in the days of Christ. The parable speaks of two calls that were made to the Jews at that time, the first before the crucifixion and the second after the crucifixion and as the second call was rejected as the first had been, there was a great persecution this time and the Jews sealed their rejection of God's mercy when they stoned Stephen and the call extended to the Gentiles. This last call is represented by the third call of the parable. The disciples of Christ did go to the Gentiles with their message but the work was not finished and the King did not come into the room to examine the guests according to the words of the parable. This examining of the guests would have been the judgement of the living.

There was a falling away within the Early Church and this led to the man of sin, to the Dark Ages, to the papal supremacy.

On October 22, 1844 the parable of Matt.22 began to be enacted again. Jesus went to the wedding but the marriage was not consumated. Because of unbelief the work was delayed. The first call of the parable took place in 1888. The call was rejected. The light was resisted. This call is to be followed by the second call of the parable. The 1888 message is to be repeated again. This call is to be followed by a great persecution and the bearers of that message will be forced to turn to the world. This is the third call of the parable, the loud cry to the world. When the mission of the Gospel is completed the King comes into the room to examine the guests. This is also represented by the parable of the net. During the loud cry, the third call of the parable of Matt.22, the net is cast into the sea, the sea represents the whole world, and the net brings back both good and bad fish into the ship. When the ship is full it comes to the shore and the fish are sorted out. The bad fish are thrown back into the sea. This is accomplished by a test, the buy-and-sell decree and the death decree. Probation closes and the destiny of each class is forever fixed. Then begins the great time of trouble for the world and the time of Jacob's ttrouble for the people of God.

The fact that these parable-prophecies were only partially fulfilled in the days of Christ does not mean that they were not true prophecies. But they will be completely fulfilled in these last days.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

Hey sky, this is interesting. Could you do a parallel search for Revelation's events to the events you wrote about?

Do you think the SDA church is the 'Ten Bride's Maids'?

Who do you think is the 'bride'? And were do the 144,000 come into your picture?

Here is my opinion: Jesus gave lots of pictures or parables of what the Kingdom of Heaven was like at the time Jesus said it. One is found in chapter 21 and explains (in picture or story form) Israel's two chances to get rid of sin and failed both times. Jesus said that a time was coming that the KOH would be taken away from them (Israel/Jews) so we know that this was a prophecy for the future.

Chapter 22 is another description in story form about the KOH at the time Jesus was on earth. I can find no reference to this being in the future as we see in Matthew 25. Matter of fact, the OT shows us that God intended for Israel/Jews to be His bride and was at first, then God divorced them but gave them a second chance. (Dan. 9:24)

Therfore, the KOH was taken away from them forever as you described with the stoning of Steven. Both Matthew and Mark have Jesus instructing the disciples to NOW go to all of the world (not just to the Jews) and make disciples out of them by giving them the words of the Father given to the disciples by Jesus. They would remember everything Jesus said because Jesus gave them the Holy Spirit. (see John 14:26 and 20:21-22)

Now, the prophecy about the wheat and the tares is important here in that the "evil and good" (Matt. 22:10) are represented by the wheat and the tares. You will notice that they grow up together and look alike, that is until right at the end and God said He will deal with them--so to will God deal with the 'evil and good' that are in the Kingdom of Heaven at the end.

Now go to Matthew 25 and see that Jesus gives us a picture of what this KOH will look like with both the 'evil and good' in it. This was a future event and verified Dan. 2's prophecy about the stone cut out w/o hands. Of course the stone does not smash the world's kingdoms until the end of the tribulation.

We can know that this last KOH will last forever and is made up of people from every race, nation and tongue from Rev. 5:9-10.

[Musicman1228]

Sky,

I prefer to look at the Matt. 22 parable/prophecy not as a partial fulfillment but as a potential dual application. God was giving literal Israel a chance to become His kingdom once again, and was using this prophecy as a means of reminding them that they had a decision to make. They chose the 'death road' side of that and other prophecies and were therefore permanently rejected by God in becoming the Bride of Christ. This prophecy was not fulfilled or even partially fulfilled by Israel, so it's application moved from Israel to the 'new' Kingdom, the small rock, that was cut out of the Mountain without hands (Dan.2), who WILL fulfill that and other prophecies pertaining to the Kingdom of Heaven in the final days. God AlWAYS give His Kingdom a choice as to what they will do; whether His will or theirs.

[wayfinder]

Quote:

God gives NO other beginning point for the year, than the new moon of the first month. The theories you presented are not found in the Bible, they are only human conjectures.

Exodus 12:2 " This month shall be the beginning of months for you; it is to be the first month of the year to you.

Strong's Number: 2320

Transliterated Word Chodesh

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

kho'-desh Noun Masculine

Definition

the new moon, month, monthly

the first day of the month

the lunar month

You ask for biblical proof, and when I provide it you respond with, you offer no biblical proof. The above text says nothing about the start of the year, it clearly states "the beginning of months" and it is the first month of the year; but the year, does not start with the first month. The theories you have presented are only conjecture, show me in the Bible where God specifically states how many days are to be used to make one month.

Quote:

The fulfillments of the 42 month prophecy in literal time, that have already occurred, began on one of the feast days of the old sanctuary system, and ended 3 ½ years later, on another one of the feast days. None of them began on the new moon and ended on a new moon.

The period of 42 months written in Revelation have not happened yet.

Quote:

An example of this is the 70th week of Daniel's 70-week prophecy (Daniel 9:24), which began on the Day of Atonement in the Jubilee year (Luke 4:16-21), in 27 C.E., and ended in the middle of the week of years (Daniel 9:27), 3 ½ years later, on the Passover, in 31 C.E.

The 70th week ends at the end of the seventh day. Please show me anywhere in the Bible, or anywhere else, when a week ended on a Wednesday and started on a Thursday.

Quote:

Another 42 months in literal time occurred at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. The Roman general, Cestius, surrounded the city while the Jews were observing the Feast of Tabernacles. 3 ½ years later, the seige was resumed by Titus during the time of the Passover.

If God's aloted time for Israel to accomplish that for which God required of them, and that time period ended in 30CE, then by the time of the destruction of the temple, God was long done with Israel. If God was judging Israel for not obeying Him, it would not have been fair to punish only Israel and not the rest of the world.

[John317]

The KJV was not the first bible in English so that was NOT the reason the king had it written. Now, was the king a man of God? Go check it out yourself. Therefore, the KJV was not authorized by God, but by the King--and it was a political move on his part.

Yes, but none of this has anything to do with the quality of the translation or of the language. As for the language itself, there's no translation in English that can even come close for beauty.

The two greatest and richest influences on the English language since 1600 have been the King James Version and William Shakespeare.

Is the KJV perfect? No, of course not. There is no perfect translation, but the KJV is still a very good translation and one that God has used to save millions of people anywhere English is spoken.

I wouldn't put it down any more than I would put down other Bibles that people are being blessed by in order to find Christ and salvation. Some are better than others in various ways, but with few exceptions they all contain the gospel of Christ.

I have many translations and read them all, but if I were on a desert island and could only have one translation, without question it would be the King James Version.

By the way, not all editions of the King James Version are identical. There are slight differences between the editions published by Cambridge and Oxford.

[John317]

.....obvious that you have not done any research into the origins of the KJV or the New Testament. ....

I would be interested in know what evidence you have that King James actually influenced the tanslation of verses in the KJV.

Can you give examples of particular verses and show the relationship to the King?

What do you find most objectionable about the King James Version?

Do you believe it contains false doctrines? If so, can you give examples of the most obvious problems?

[Dr. Rich]

Do a check on the different versions of the bible and the KJV on Revelation 5:10 for the word "Kingdom". IN the KJV this word was changed to "kings". Big difference here!

[John317]

Based on your study, how do you account for that difference? Why does it occur?

Explain what you mean by "changed". Who do you think "changed" it?

Have you ever discussed this verse in the radio program? And if so, how did you or WAyfinder or Musicman explain the difference here?

[Dr. Rich]

Jon Paulien started his Revelation studies last tuesday at the Calimesa church and said that he would be using the NIV bible for the study. He read many verses in Revelation in the NIV, but when he came to Rev. 5:10 for some reason he chose the KJV bible. Can anyone give me a good reason why he would have done that?

(He came out and said "a kingdom of KINGS and Priests") WHAT?

He also said a good study would not cut and paste verses--and then he went and did that too. Hmmm?

[John317]

OK, but that didn't answer my questions:

Based on your study, how do you account for that difference? Why does it occur?

Explain what you mean by "changed". Who do you think "changed" it?

Have you ever discussed this verse in the radio program? And if so, how did you or WAyfinder or Musicman explain the difference here?

What reason do you think Jon Paulien had for using the word "kings" instead of "kingdoms"?

[Johnnboy]

JB, are you saying that God's year starts on a different time each year? Are you kidding me? God's years would be the same every year, just as a day has 24 hours and God's day starts when sun sets (not our 12 midnight), so does God's year start and end exactly the same time every year. This is what is called the Spring Equinox. Come on man, let's use some common sense, if there IS such a thing anymore.

God's year begins on the first day of the year, the first new moon of spring, which is on or after the spring equinox. That is the only Biblical evidence we have. There is no other Biblical evidence.

Exodus 12:2-- “This month [shall be] unto you the beginning of months: it [shall be] the first month of the year to you.”

From this statement God set the time for the first day of His year, and with it, the schedule for the feast days, specifically the Passover on the 14th day of God's first month.

There is no common sense in contradiction to the Word of God.

[Johnnboy]

Exodus 12:2 " This month shall be the beginning of months for you; it is to be the first month of the year to you.

You ask for biblical proof, and when I provide it you respond with, you offer no biblical proof. The above text says nothing about the start of the year, it clearly states "the beginning of months" and it is the first month of the year; but the year, does not start with the first month. The theories you have presented are only conjecture, show me in the Bible where God specifically states how many days are to be used to make one month.

Wayfinder stated, “...but the year, does not start with the first month.”

Please give a Bible text as evidence.

Do you think the year begins with the 10th month or the 5th month? Or which day of which month begins your year?

God's year begins at the time He says.

PLEASE examine Exodus 12:2-- “THIS MONTH SHALL BE UNTO YOU THE BEGINNING OF MONTHS, IT SHALL BE THE FIRST MONTH OF THE YEAR TO YOU.”

“First” means 1st.

The Bible states: “Doth not even nature itself teach you..” 1 Corinthian 11:14.

The moon shows us how many days are in a month. New moon to the day before the next new moon is God's month.

[Guest]

Exodus 12:2 " This month shall be the beginning of months for you; it is to be the first month of the year to you.

The above text says nothing about the start of the year, it clearly states "the beginning of months" and it is the first month of the year; but the year, does not start with the first month.

Are you serious wayfinder? You don't think the first month of the year starts the year off? What month do you normally start your years off with? Do you wait until the second month and then say: "Now we can start the year"?

Satan has somehow rendered you totally blind spiritually. I have often wondered about this. And yet you fully believe you are in the light, even after people show you from scripture where you're wrong. (and I've seen this done numerous times)

At some point in your life, you must have despised the truth. That is the only thing I can figure. Maybe one day I will find out what really happened.

[wayfinder]

Richard, please read all of my posts on this thread and you will understand where I am coming from.

I love the truth. It was and is my search for truth that has led me to where I am in my understanding now.

I have not been proven wrong by scripture. The only scripture that has been offered in rebuttal to my posts are the very ones that I have called into question. Prove me wrong from the Law and Prophets and the words recorded by the eyewitness testimony of the words of the Son of God and I will willingly and with humble heart admit that I was wrong and ask for forgiveness.

[Guest]

But I know where you are in your understanding. And it has very little to do with any truth. Just because YOU call scripture into question, does not make it invalid.

And I HAVE seen you reject the law and the prophets when they don't agree with your "view". I've even seen you reject the words of Jesus without even realizing it. So there is no more point in arguing.

[Johnnboy]

The period of 42 months written in Revelation have not happened yet.

The 70th week ends at the end of the seventh day. Please show me anywhere in the Bible, or anywhere else, when a week ended on a Wednesday and started on a Thursday.

Regarding the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, this time period in prophetic history was a “week of years”.

Biblical proof that these weeks could mean 7 years, is given in Leviticus 25. Therefore, when Daniel stated, “in the midst of the week”, he was referring to the middle of the week of years, which was 3 and 1/2 years into the 7 year cycle of years. Wednesday or Thursday was not relevant to the issue.

In prophetic history there has been a period of 42 months in prophetic time, 1260 years, when the beast had power over kings and nations, and persecuted the people of God, until the deadly wound was given by one of the French generals, Berthier.

Prophetic history means history that is a prophecy of future events. Prophetic time means that the time element is prophetic, also, and that there will be a fulfillment of the same prophecy in actual literal time.

The main fulfillment of the time period of 42 months, 1260 literal days, written in Revelation will be fulfilled in the future, when all the world will wonder after the beast again and he receives power.

“That which has been is now, and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.” Ecclesiastes 3:15.

It is very important to “watch”, as the Messiah said, for the fulfillment of prophecy in events occurring around us. In fact, He emphasized six times, the importance of searching, by asking, seeking, and knocking, to find the real truth.

Events in our day that are prophetic fulfillments would be the 2300 literal days, the 1260 literal days, aligning precisely with a perfect alignment of the fall feast days, (the prophecies of Moses). Even the “deadly wound” of Revelation 13, fit exactly within this literal time period. This literal fulfillment shows us just how, the still future, fulfillment of this prophecy will occur.

[wayfinder]

This is my understanding about the measuring of time in apocalyptic prophecy. Prophecy that reveals the events of the end time, reveal the plan that God has to restore righteousness to this earth, it is His plan for restoration. God established a calendar to use in His plan for restoration, I call this "the restoration calendar". God established this calendar when He brought His kingdom out of Egypt and gave the details of it's function and purpose to Moses on Mt. Sinai. The restoration calendar is also known as the jubilee calendar. This calendar functions on a day/year, so every prophecy that gives a difined time in days, that day is a year long. This calendar does not provide for the counting of months, so any restoration prophecy that gives time in months must occur after this calendar ends when this occurs the rest of the time periods are literaly defined i.e. a day is 24 hours, a week is seven consecutive days, a year/time is one revolution of the earth around the sun, a month is new moon to next new moon.

[Guest]

Do you not know that 42 months, and 1260 days are the same thing?

That shows that it doesn't matter whether it's called months, weeks, or days. One day in Bible prophecy stands for a year.

You get into trouble when you start making up your own rules, (which you have done plenty of) and depart from letting the Bible interpret itself.