Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[Guest]

The only way that this wicked servant could say, "My Master is delayed" is if he knew with certainty WHEN the Master was to come. You cannot delay something the time for which is not know in advance. So please let me know your thought on this.

That simply is not true. You don't have to know the exact day to know that it is near, and not delayed. That is if you watch and pray, like Jesus tells us to do. You can know when it is near. Even at the door, if you study and pray.

But people who don't do this usually believe it is an event far off in the future. I talk to these types of people everyday, and so do you. They don't believe Jesus will come in their lifetime. These are the ones Jesus is talking about, that say his coming is delayed.

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When its branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near: So likewise you, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Matt 24:32,33

But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matt 24:36

Watch therefore: for you know not what hour your Lord does come. Matt 24:42

This is so straight forward, and layed out so plainly, that it's hard for me to understand how ANYONE can be confused about it.

So confused, in fact that they can look at this and still try to make the case for the exact opposite of what it says here.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

The only way that this wicked servant could say, "My Master is delayed" is if he knew with certainty WHEN the Master was to come. You cannot delay something the time for which is not know in advance. So please let me know your thought on this.

That simply is not true. You don't have to know the exact day to know that it is near, and not delayed. That is if you watch and pray, like Jesus tells us to do. You can know when it is near. Even at the door, if you study and pray.

But people who don't do this usually believe it is an event far off in the future. I talk to these types of people everyday, and so do you. They don't believe Jesus will come in their lifetime. These are the ones Jesus is talking about, that say his coming is delayed.

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When its branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near: So likewise you, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Matt 24:32,33

But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matt 24:36

Watch therefore: for you know not what hour your Lord does come. Matt 24:42

This is so straight forward, and layed out so plainly, that it's hard for me to understand how ANYONE can be confused about it.

So confused, in fact that they can look at this and still try to make the case for the exact opposite of what it says here.

Richard,

You cite Matt.24:42 but then you fail to go further with what Jesus said in v. 43 and on. OF COURSE if you do not go on with the prophecy you must come to the conclusion that no one will ever know. This is an example of 'cut and paste' theology with is sure to give you a faulty interpretation of the prophecy.

In v. 43 Jesus modifies what He just said by using the term "But IF". The He asks a rhetorical question, the understanding of which gives the true meaning of the prophecy which is different than the conclusion you came too by stopping when you did.

BUT know this, that IF the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Matt. 24:43.

The master of the house is not Jesus because this 'householder' is the manager of the household for the Master that went away. It is THIS person that IF he knows the part of the night the Thief will come WILL stay awake and WILL not be caught by surprise.

[Twilight]

So come on, spit it out MM and Dr R.

When are you claiming Jesus is going to come?

[Musicman1228]

So come on, spit it out MM and Dr R.

When are you claiming Jesus is going to come?

Here is where you can find the chart. There is also a detailed explanation in another article. Enjoy.

Timing Chart

[John317]

John,

I understand where you are coming from, because for many people it is less scary to NOT know when Jesus is coming again than it would be to know the day and the hour and have to do something about it. After all, this is what caused the Great Disappointment, and no one wants to go through THAT again.

I'm not sure I understand you here. What are you saying caused the Great Disappointment? You seem to be saying that Christ could have come to the earth at that time if people had done something to be ready. Am I understanding you right?

Quote:

Musicman] But I am going to ask you a very important question and I know you will give me a thoughtful answer:

Why does God punish the Faithful and Wise bondservant (Matt.24:42-51) with eternal death for turning wicked and saying in his heart "My master is delaying his coming" if it was IMPOSSIBLE for this servant to know when the Master was coming back?

This occurs simply because the evil servant thought the Master was going to return sooner, and he realizes that the Master is not coming as soon as he expected. For instance, the early Christians believed that Christ would come in the first century or perhaps within their lifetime, but when Christ didn't return at that time, they understood it to be a "delay" although they'd never known exactly when He would come back.

I don't think it's necessary to know precisely the day and the hour of the Second Coming in order for people to think of it in terms of a "delay."

Originally Posted By: Musicman

The only way that this wicked servant could say, "My Master is delayed" is if he knew with certainty WHEN the Master was to come. You cannot delay something the time for which is not know in advance. So please let me know your thought on this.

He could say there was a delay in the Second Coming if he beleived Christ was to return at an earlier point. I don't believe it's necessary for the wicked servant to know the exact hour of the return in order for him to conclude that there's been a delay.

For example, if my daughter tells me that she will come visit "soon," and it's been two days since I expected her, I might say there's been a "delay" even though I had no certain knowledge in advance of exactly when she would come. In this case--and I think it's similar to the case of the Second Coming-- the wicked servant says there's been a delay simply because the Master doesn't come within the period of time when the servant expected Him to come.

[John317]

I think there's an important point that some people might be missing here. It isn't wrong to say that there's been a delay. What's wrong is when people do what the wicked servant did and commit sin because of the delay. It's not the delay itself that is wrong but the reaction of people to the delay.

I think the Gospels and the rest of the NT give us an indication that there would be a "delay" in Christ's return. The very fact that this parable refers to a "delay" is one such indication. Jesus wouldn't have told it if He hadn't known in advance that enough time would elapse for people to believe there had been a delay.

[Dr. Rich]

Hey Twilight, you can find out yourself by using the template God gave us in prophecy. However, I am not saying that I actually know the time as I only know the time period provided by the math problems in prophecy. As in the days of Noah, he didn't know the exact time until six days before the event. Therefore, the exact time will probably be known by the 144k just prior to the time of trouble. Would this make sense?

But one thing I think we all can agree on is that it WILL happen! As someone else pointed out, one could die before this all happens and I think (MHO) it is vague for the reason God does all want us to be ready and get with it by seeking out the truth.

The hardest thing (for me) is being able to wait. I must appoligize to you guys for being hard on you at times because waiting is hard for me I guess. It's like a parent seeing a car coming down the street when her kids are playing in the street--she want's to yell out "GET OUT OF THE STREET".

When someone is sleeping, they don't hear much (if anything at all) going on around them because they are happy in their sleep. And since I don't think the time for wakeing up the sleeping KOH is here yet, I have come to the conclusion to let 'them' sleep. Besides Twilight, your question does not mean you really want to know--does it?

[John317]

You cite Matt.24:42 but then you fail to go further with what Jesus said in v. 43 and on....In v. 43 Jesus modifies what He just said by using the term "But IF". The He asks a rhetorical question, the understanding of which gives the true meaning of the prophecy which is different than the conclusion you came too by stopping when you did.

BUT know this, that IF the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Matt. 24:43.

The master of the house is not Jesus because this 'householder' is the manager of the household for the Master that went away. It is THIS person that IF he knows the part of the night the Thief will come WILL stay awake and WILL not be caught by surprise.

But this is a parable and not a prophecy. It illustrates certain things about Christ's coming, but we're not to think that every individual in the parable represents a literal, identifiable individual.

If the case were otherwise, as you are evidently suggesting, then we would have to ask and answer the question, Who precisely are the two men in the field and the women grinding at the mill (vv. 40, 41)? But that would seem to be contrary to Christ's intended meaning. Yet if those two men and those two women are not particular people, then there's no reason to think that the people referred to in vv 43-51 are particular individuals.

The whole parable is for the purpose of teaching lessons about being ready for Christ's second coming. The two men and the two women are types of people, and so are the individuals described in the rest of the parable. The idea that Jesus is trying to get across is that we don't want to be like the master of the house who was caught off guard or like wicked servant. Rather, we want to be like the faithful and wise servant who is found doing what He should be doing when His master returns. They represent every man and woman who hears, and claims to accept, the gospel.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

You cite Matt.24:42 but then you fail to go further with what Jesus said in v. 43 and on....In v. 43 Jesus modifies what He just said by using the term "But IF". The He asks a rhetorical question, the understanding of which gives the true meaning of the prophecy which is different than the conclusion you came too by stopping when you did.

BUT know this, that IF the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Matt. 24:43.

The master of the house is not Jesus because this 'householder' is the manager of the household for the Master that went away. It is THIS person that IF he knows the part of the night the Thief will come WILL stay awake and WILL not be caught by surprise.

But this is a parable and not a prophecy. It illustrates certain things about Christ's coming, but we're not to think that every individual in the parable represents a literal, identifiable individual.

If the case were otherwise, as you are evidently suggesting, then we would have to ask and answer the question, Who precisely are the two men in the field and the women grinding at the mill (vv. 40, 41)? But that would seem to be contrary to Christ's intended meaning. Yet if those two men and those two women are not particular people, then there's no reason to think that the people referred to in vv 43-51 are particular individuals.

The whole parable is for the purpose of teaching lessons about being ready for Christ's second coming. The two men and the two women are types of people, and so are the individuals described in the rest of the parable. The idea that Jesus is trying to get across is that we don't want to be like the master of the house who was caught off guard or like wicked servant. Rather, we want to be like the faithful and wise servant who is found doing what He should be doing when His master returns. They represent every man and woman who hears, and claims to accept, the gospel.

So John, is Jesus a prophet or not? If all Jesus did was teach life lessons in His parables then He cannot be called a prophet. But if this devotional material of Jesus had prophetic implications then that would change the whole complexion of the issue.

If Jesus is a prophet (and He is the Greatest Prophet) then where are His prophecies located in what He told His disciples? Matthew 24 begins with Jesus giving prophecy. So where does the prophecy end and the parable begin?

As far as I am concerned if Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of Heaven and also had a timing reference such as the words "Then", or "At that time" or "as in the days" then what Jesus is speaking is a prophecy. Did Jesus not give the prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem, and did that event not happen exactly as Jesus said? Of course it did. Do you not believe THAT prophecy came to pass? Of course you do. So why not believe that Jesus would give prophecy concerning the end of time using the same format that He uses to teach spiritual lesson? To me it makes perfect sense that He does.

So IF the 'parable' of the Faithful and Wise Bondservant is a prophecy then that would bring into play another set of dynamics that would operate counter to what most Christians believe to be true about the Coming of Jesus Christ back to this earth.

[John317]

So John, is Jesus a prophet or not? If all Jesus did was teach life lessons in His parables then He cannot be called a prophet.

I completely agree of course that Jesus was a prophet when he was on earth. But that fact doesn't mean every word he spoke was a prophecy or prediction. Would you agree that not all of His parables are prophecies per se? All of them teach lessons but not all of them are prophecies in the sense of predicting what or when things will happen.

For instance, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not a prediction of particular events. The same may be said of the parable of the Good Samaritan. Parables are illustrations, not prophecies or predictions.

Therefore Christ's primary work as a prophet is not found in the parables. In those, Jesus is seen mainly as a teacher rather than a prophet.

Originally Posted By: Musicman

...If Jesus is a prophet (and He is the Greatest Prophet) then where are His prophecies located in what He told His disciples? Matthew 24 begins with Jesus giving prophecy. So where does the prophecy end and the parable begin?

In Matt. 24, the prophetic section is from verses 1 through 35. Verses 36 to the end of the chapter are comparisons or illustrations or parables.

Jesus is comparing what it will be like to things that we are familiar with. He starts out in this section saying that it will be like it was in the days of Noah. Then He compares it to people who will be taken and others who will be left behind. Next He compares it to a house where the owner is surprised by the thief. These are all illustrations, not prophecies per se.

Jesus asks, Who is that faithful slave...? Blessed is that slave whom His master finds doing right when He comes. On the other hand, if that slave is wicked, he will be severely punished.

He doesn't ask the question in order for us to study to find out the name or identity of a particular individual. He is asking the question in order for each of us to strive to be that faithful slave rather than the wicked slave. I don't see any evidence that this is a predictive prophecy. But I do certainly see it as lessons that God wants us to learn and to act upon.

It seems obvious to me that Jesus wants all of us to put these lessons into practice and not wonder who it's talking about. He is talking to each one of us. WE are all the servant and able to be either the faithful slave or the wicked slave.

I find it interesting that my Jehovah Witness friends also believe this parable of the faithful slave points to particular people, and for them, it points to the Watchtower Society. So they read & study nothing but what is produced by that "faithful and discreet slave," who they believe (wrongly!) is giving them their spiritual food at the right time.

The problem is, history shows that they are putting their confidence in an unreliable and changeable (indeed, false) organization and not one that speaks for God as they've been led to believe, although it does teach a great deal of truth.

[Twilight]

Hey Twilight, you can find out yourself by using the template God gave us in prophecy. However, I am not saying that I actually know the time as I only know the time period provided by the math problems in prophecy. As in the days of Noah, he didn't know the exact time until six days before the event. Therefore, the exact time will probably be known by the 144k just prior to the time of trouble. Would this make sense?

But one thing I think we all can agree on is that it WILL happen! As someone else pointed out, one could die before this all happens and I think (MHO) it is vague for the reason God does all want us to be ready and get with it by seeking out the truth.

The hardest thing (for me) is being able to wait. I must appoligize to you guys for being hard on you at times because waiting is hard for me I guess. It's like a parent seeing a car coming down the street when her kids are playing in the street--she want's to yell out "GET OUT OF THE STREET".

When someone is sleeping, they don't hear much (if anything at all) going on around them because they are happy in their sleep. And since I don't think the time for wakeing up the sleeping KOH is here yet, I have come to the conclusion to let 'them' sleep. Besides Twilight, your question does not mean you really want to know--does it?

Because your basic foundational beliefs are so far off base, I would treat any date setting with the utmost suspicion.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

So John, is Jesus a prophet or not? If all Jesus did was teach life lessons in His parables then He cannot be called a prophet.

I completely agree of course that Jesus was a prophet when he was on earth. But that fact doesn't mean every word he spoke was a prophecy or prediction. Would you agree that not all of His parables are prophecies per se? All of them teach lessons but not all of them are prophecies in the sense of predicting what or when things will happen.

For instance, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not a prediction of particular events. The same may be said of the parable of the Good Samaritan. Parables are illustrations, not prophecies or predictions.

Therefore Christ's primary work as a prophet is not found in the parables. In those, Jesus is seen mainly as a teacher rather than a prophet.

Originally Posted By: Musicman

...If Jesus is a prophet (and He is the Greatest Prophet) then where are His prophecies located in what He told His disciples? Matthew 24 begins with Jesus giving prophecy. So where does the prophecy end and the parable begin?

In Matt. 24, the prophetic section is from verses 1 through 35. Verses 36 to the end of the chapter are comparisons or illustrations or parables.

Jesus is comparing what it will be like to things that we are familiar with. He starts out in this section saying that it will be like it was in the days of Noah. Then He compares it to people who will be taken and others who will be left behind. Next He compares it to a house where the owner is surprised by the thief. These are all illustrations, not prophecies per se.

Jesus asks, Who is that faithful slave...? Blessed is that slave whom His master finds doing right when He comes. On the other hand, if that slave is wicked, he will be severely punished.

He doesn't ask the question in order for us to study to find out the name or identity of a particular individual. He is asking the question in order for each of us to strive to be that faithful slave rather than the wicked slave. I don't see any evidence that this is a predictive prophecy. But I do certainly see it as lessons that God wants us to learn and to act upon.

It seems obvious to me that Jesus wants all of us to put these lessons into practice and not wonder who it's talking about. He is talking to each one of us. WE are all the servant and able to be either the faithful slave or the wicked slave.

I find it interesting that my Jehovah Witness friends also believe this parable of the faithful slave points to particular people, and for them, it points to the Watchtower Society. So they read & study nothing but what is produced by that "faithful and discreet slave," who they believe (wrongly!) is giving them their spiritual food at the right time.

The problem is, history shows that they are putting their confidence in an unreliable and changeable (indeed, false) organization and not one that speaks for God as they've been led to believe, although it does teach a great deal of truth.

Matthew 25 1 onwards, dealing with the 10 virgins is a prophecy John317, as are many others. :-)

[Musicman1228]

John said, "In Matt. 24, the prophetic section is from verses 1 through 35. Verses 36 to the end of the chapter are comparisons or illustrations or parables."

I agree that all of the parables of Jesus are not prophecy, but who decides which is which. Ex: who decided that the prophecy in Matt. 24 stops at verse 35? Was is a group of theologians, and expert in New Testament, tradition, you? Who or what makes the determination, and why isn't my understanding just as valid as these?

One thing that is of paramount importance that we often forget when studying the Scriptures is that there are NO chapter breaks in the original text. Chapter and verse are put there by editors for our convenience not to affect theology. The entire chapter (Matt. 24) could be (is) prophecy, and continues right on into Chapter 25 with the prophecy of the 10 Sleeping Bridesmaids.

We can also look at a passage and having determined that it is prophecy we and go backward in the text and see what contributed to that prophecy from before. That is one reason why I believe that the 'parable' of the Faithful and Wise Bondservant is also a prophecy; because it contributes materially to the identity as to who gives the cry at midnight in the following passage.

IF (and only if) my understanding about what is prophecy as given by Jesus is true then would that not change the quality of understanding of the prophecies of the end of time?

[John317]

Matthew 25 1 onwards, dealing with the 10 virgins is a prophecy John317, as are many others. :-)

I agree that the parables-- such as the one you mention-- describe things and conditions that will happen, but my point in the previous post is simply that the people in those parables don't represent particular individuals in history.

[John317]

....who decided that the prophecy in Matt. 24 stops at verse 35? Was is a group of theologians, and expert in New Testament, tradition, you? Who or what makes the determination, and why isn't my understanding just as valid as these?

One thing that is of paramount importance that we often forget when studying the Scriptures is that there are NO chapter breaks in the original text. Chapter and verse are put there by editors for our convenience not to affect theology. The entire chapter (Matt. 24) could be (is) prophecy, and continues right on into Chapter 25 with the prophecy of the 10 Sleeping Bridesmaids.

I certainly do agree with you that the chapters breaks are not inspired and therefore can't be the determining factor in interpreting Scripture. So it also can't determine for us whether a parable is prophecy or not. That decision has to be based on other evidence, not on whether it is part of one chapter or another.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Matthew 25 1 onwards, dealing with the 10 virgins is a prophecy John317, as are many others. :-)

I agree that the parables-- such as the one you mention-- describe things and conditions that will happen, but my point in the previous post is simply that the people in those parables don't represent particular individuals in history.

You are absolutely correct in saying that the parables of Jesus that are prophecy don't represent history; they are ALL about the future. Do you not believe that Jesus knew the difference between singular and plural usage? I believe that Jesus knew EXACTLY what He was saying when He was addressing prophecy to an individual such as the Faithful and Wise Bondservant (an individual), and groups of people such as the 10 Bridesmaids.

We actually make prophecy much more difficult to understand when we supply meanings that just aren't in the prophecy.

[John317]

You are absolutely correct in saying that the parables of Jesus that are prophecy don't represent history; they are ALL about the future.

By history I mean things that occur within history, whether that is past or the future. I don't believe the parables are pointing out particular individuals. For instance, the two men in the field and the two women grinding at the mill are not two particular men or women within history, but rather they represent the fact that everyone alive at the time of Christ's return will either be saved or lost. So, in that sense, every believer will either be a faithful or a wicked servant.

I'd be interested to know how you conclude that the faithful servant of Matt. 24 is the one who cries out, in Matt. 25: 5, "Behold, the bridegroom is coming."

[John317]

...We can also look at a passage and having determined that it is prophecy we and go backward in the text and see what contributed to that prophecy from before. That is one reason why I believe that the 'parable' of the Faithful and Wise Bondservant is also a prophecy; because it contributes materially to the identity as to who gives the cry at midnight in the following passage.

Can you talk more about this, & show your reasoning in the Scriptures on this point?

Originally Posted By: John3:17

IF (and only if) my understanding about what is prophecy as given by Jesus is true then would that not change the quality of understanding of the prophecies of the end of time?

Are you asking if it would change our interpretation of the end-time prophecies, if it's true that there's an individual who will know when Christ is to return? If so, could you give one example of how you believe it would change our understanding of prophecies?

[Dr. Rich]

John, we have one big problem and that is 'prior influence'. Prior influence, regardless from the source, tends to warp the understanding or the way one understands prophecy.

For instance, take the mistaken belief about the 'rapture'. Where did this come from? Why is it popular today? Wouldn't Tim LaHay argue with you over this because of prior influences? Why are you an Adventist instead of a Mormon or Baptist? Or how come your belief is not the same as Ronda or Musicman's?

I guess what I am trying to say is this: No matter what Musicman's explanation of end time prophecy, it will not, and can not be understood correctly because of all of the influences people can't remove from their mind. Maybe this is the reason Jesus said that one must be like a child?

Jesus clearly said that ONE would be in charge of all of the rest of the servants as found in Matt. 24:45. MM gave confirming (validation) evidence for this in Matt. 17:11. Therefore, this could not mean more than one person as so many people believe to day.

Since this person will be teaching the fellow servants something they do not already know AND at the same time Jesus comes like a thief, then what possible could this be IF it is not about who, why, how and when the correct time Jesus will come? It sure can't be the SDA health message-or about the sabbath--as Adventists already know that. And therefore it can't be anything else Adventists now know.

And it will only eaten (understood) by those who are hungry for this food. Since most will be influensed by others, they will not be hungry enough to accept the new food.

One more thing: The 2 people in the field is a general application that Jesus used many times. There are two choices and here it shows the two. As with the ONE left in charge of the Master's house, there are two choices to make for him. Either be trustful or not.

Since we should know that the ONE faithful servant WILL be trustful, then one can put 1 plus 1 and come up with the understanding that the ONE servant and his fellow servants being fed this NEW information, will be the ones that wake up the sleeping servants for the bride ir order to give them this same information. And that will happen after Jesus has come, but before they meet with Jesus.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Matthew 25 1 onwards, dealing with the 10 virgins is a prophecy John317, as are many others. :-)

I agree that the parables-- such as the one you mention-- describe things and conditions that will happen, but my point in the previous post is simply that the people in those parables don't represent particular individuals in history.

Beyond Christ, I would agree with that.

It deals with groups, not individuals. :-)

[Twilight]

Why do I get the feeling that someone is going to announce themselves as a "prophet" soon?

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

You are absolutely correct in saying that the parables of Jesus that are prophecy don't represent history; they are ALL about the future.

By history I mean things that occur within history, whether that is past or the future. I don't believe the parables are pointing out particular individuals. For instance, the two men in the field and the two women grinding at the mill are not two particular men or women within history, but rather they represent the fact that everyone alive at the time of Christ's return will either be saved or lost. So, in that sense, every believer will either be a faithful or a wicked servant.

I'd be interested to know how you conclude that the faithful servant of Matt. 24 is the one who cries out, in Matt. 25: 5, "Behold, the bridegroom is coming."

I will be glad to tell you how I personally come to that conclusion.

The Matt.25:6 (not 5) text is more immediate than is indicated in the way you cited it. Here are several Bible versions that say it basically the same way:

‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ ESV

Behold, the bridegroom! Come ye forth to meet him. ASV

‘The groom is here! Come out to meet him!’ ISV

‘The groom is here! Come out to meet him!’ NETfree

In all versions the implication is that the Bridegroom is in the present tense "here", meaning 'already come'.

So in examining the context I cannot see that this coming would be to the 10 Bridesmaids because they are sound asleep when this cry is given, therefore they could not know that the Bridegroom had already come. They are asleep when He showed up. So to find out to whom it was that actually saw the Bridegroom come we must go backward in the prophecy to see who this could possibly be.

[Remember, this is all the same prophecy continuing from the beginning of Matt. 24.]

In Matt.24:42-51 Jesus is speaking using language that is both singular and plural in identifying the Faithful and Wise Bondservant (hereafter FaWB) and his fellow servants. If this was a description of all the same people then why would Jesus use different forms?

Jesus ALWAYS says EXACTLY what HE means. We must make this assumption because if this is not true then how could we safely claim that Jesus is the Son of God. God does not make mistakes. We must therefore both assume and acknowledge that Jesus means what He says.

That being the case Jesus meant to say what He said in this text and what He said indicates 1(ONE) FaWB and multiple Fellow Bondservants (in this case I believe the 144,000 of Rev.7 and 14). If there were more than one FaWB then Jesus, being God, would have had to say that there was more than one; in which case the text would have read:

"Who then are the Faithful and Wise Bondservants . . ."

This is NOT how it is translated in ANY of the 16 Bible versions that I have.

That is why I have made the determination that the FaWB is a single individual that will be doing exactly what Jesus said he would be doing when Jesus comes to seal the 144,000, who are his 'fellow' Bondservants.

Also note that Pharaoh had a single 'head of the house' named Joseph and Nebuchadnezar had Daniel. Our president has a Chief of Staff. It is quite common for a ruler to appoint a single individual to the position of 'head of the house', so why would not God do the same?

[John317]

The Matt.25:6 (not 5) text is more immediate than is indicated in the way you cited it. Here are several Bible versions that say it basically the same way:

‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ ESV

Behold, the bridegroom! Come ye forth to meet him. ASV

‘The groom is here! Come out to meet him!’ ISV

‘The groom is here! Come out to meet him!’ NETfree

In all versions the implication is that the Bridegroom is in the present tense "here", meaning 'already come'.

Yes, you're right, it's verse 6. My mistake.

You are right also about the translations. There is actually quite a variety of different ways the Greek manuscripts read here. The Greek text that all of those translations are based on reads, literally, "Behold, the bridegroom! go out to meet him." So those do give the impression that the bridegroom is already present or at least very close. But the words "is here" or "already come" don't occur in the original.

[John317]

"Who then are the Faithful and Wise Bondservants . . ."

This is NOT how it is translated in ANY of the 16 Bible versions that I have.

You are right here that the word in the original is singular, not plural. Any translation that rendered it in the plural would simply be inaccurate. I doubt any do.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

"Who then are the Faithful and Wise Bondservants . . ."

This is NOT how it is translated in ANY of the 16 Bible versions that I have.

You are right here that the word in the original is singular, not plural. Any translation that rendered it in the plural would simply be inaccurate. I doubt any do.

Can you see why I would then believe that Jesus is speaking about a single individual and not a group of FaWB?

I know this seems like it would be exclusive on the part of Jesus, almost as if He is limiting the number of people that could fulfill this role. Yet it is my understanding that just the same as with Jesus when He came to earth the first time as Messiah that at the end of time Jesus must start with ONE person that has the truth and build from there.

And this begs the question "Why would Jesus need to start over from scratch when He obviously separated out a unique and special people from the world in 1844 CE"? The only answer that I can come up with is that at the time that this particular people (Adventists) believed that Jesus was coming back (1844) NO ONE was ready; not the Bridesmaids, not the Bride-no one.

Jesus even says this in no uncertain terms in Rev. 3:1-3 when He says:

“‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead.   (2) Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.   (3) Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.

It is the FaWB that learns the truth about why this non-event occurs (the Great Disappointment) and what must be done to get back to where God needs His people to be. The FaWB through diligent study and with the help of the Holy Spirit finds out that the actual time for the Coming of Jesus in the clouds has come and gone (1994 CE-end of the Restoration Calendar), that we are now in a delay (Rev.7:1-4, Rev.10:6), and that God will, through the ministry of this one individual, pull together the 144,000 Bondservants out of the (then) Kingdom of Heaven-Spiritual Israel. This Kingdom which came about without fanfare, without any signs and wonders-'without human hands' as it were (Dan.2:34, 44), will need to be reminded of the duty God gave it and which it has not accomplished. It is the FaWB that does this, through the 144,000 fellow bondservants. These bondservants are the ones that give the 'cry at midnight' that we see in Matt.25.

Therefore, in order of appearance I see the following events occurring:

1. Kingdom of Heaven brought out of the world in 1844, now termed the SDA church.

2. K of H goes to sleep due to lies that it believes to be true.

3. God chooses FaWB to teach his fellow servants the truth about the true role of the K of H, and prophecy. This occurs on or around 1994 CE.(the end of the Restoration Calendar which began in 1437 BCE at Sinai), which begins the delay (before the Shaking of the SDA church begins) because the Bridesmaids are still not awake and ready.

4. The Shaking begins with the 'Cry at Midnight', where the FaWB and his fellow servants tell the SDA church that the Master has come and they slept right through it. This is the start of the 1335 days (literal) of Dan.12:12.

5. The church is divided into two parts during the 1335 days: those that do not want to believe this is true and who choose to not believe, and those that don't know if it is true but are willing to find out if it is, and eventually believe. These are represented by the 5 foolish and 5 wise bridesmaids.

6. At the close of the 1335 days of the Shaking of the church the Master, the FaWB and fellow servants, and the 5 Wise bridesmaids go into the marriage feast (not the coming in the clouds event), at which time they are all 'sealed and perfectly united, and then we entered it (the Great Tribulation)(quote from EGW). The 5 foolish Bridesmaids are left in outer darkness and are lost for eternity even before the Great Trib. begins.

7. The Delay ends, the four winds are released by the angels holding them back, and the Great Trib. begins with the 1st of four trumpets that occur in rapid succession, plunging the world into chaos. Then the fully prepared and righteous Bridesmaids (the Remnant of the SDA church), the Two Witnesses, the 144,000 go into the world to gather together those that will refuse the Mark of the Beast, because they will believe the 5 Wise Bridesmaids and not the 5 Foolish that are now working for the kingdom of the world and Satan. These people will be the arch enemies of the Bridesmaids and will kill many of them who will become the martyrs under the altar (Rev.6:9).

There is lots more, but this understanding is way to complex and detailed to come from the mind of someone that has not studied these things well, and has not been led by the Holy Spirit to these conclusions. (This is not me, by the way.) I recommend that you look at this material with and open mind before you draw any permanent and damaging conclusions.