Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[jsm]

It may be of interest now to give more consideration to Revelation 17 and its symbols.

 1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”

3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written:

      MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

 6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

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Please note that the woman [named BABYLON] and the [PAPAL] beast are separate entities. While the woman at first rides [controls] the beast in verse 3, verses 14-17 show that the 10 “horn” powers that give “their power and authority to the BEAST” will “hate the HARLOT, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.” That desolation is described in Revelation 18—And this surprising PAPAL takeover [along with the witness of faithful SDAs] will be a final wakeup call to “the GREAT MULTITUDE” of God’s people still in the PROTESTANT Babylon to “come out of her.” This is shown in the following references:

As with ancient Israel, this woman had once been pure, but had fallen spiritually to become a harlot.

Isaiah 1:21 How the faithful city has become a harlot! It was full of justice; Righteousness lodged in it, But now murderers.

Revelation 14:8 And another angel followed, saying, “BABYLON is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication [harlotry].”

“The message of Revelation 14, announcing the fall of BABYLON must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. Since this message follows the warning of the judgment, it must be given in the last days; therefore it cannot refer to the Roman Church alone, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries. Furthermore, in the eighteenth chapter of the Revelation the people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God's people must still be in Babylon. And in what religious bodies are the GREATER PART of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the PROTESTANT faith.” GC 382.

“At the time of their rise these [PROTESTANT] churches took a noble stand for God and the truth, and His blessing was with them. Even the unbelieving world was constrained to acknowledge the beneficent results that followed an acceptance of the principles of the gospel. In the words of the prophet to Israel: ‘Your fame went out among the nations because of your beauty, for it was PERFECT through My splendor which I had bestowed on you, says the Lord GOD.’ Ezekiel 16:14. But they [the PROTESTANT churches] fell by the same desire which was the curse and ruin of Israel—the desire of imitating the practices and courting the friendship of the ungodly. "But you trusted in your own beauty, played the HARLOT because of your fame, and poured out your harlotry on everyone passing by who would have it." Ezekiel 16:15.” GC 382.

“Many of the PROTESTANT churches are following Rome's example of iniquitous connection with ‘the kings of the earth’—the state churches—by their RELATION TO secular governments; and other denominations (do the same), by seeking the favor of the world. And the term ‘BABYLON’—confusion—may be appropriately applied to these bodies, all professing to derive their doctrines from the Bible, yet divided into almost innumerable sects, with widely conflicting creeds and theories.” GC 383.

Now notice that the end-time “Babylon” is primarily Protestant America when it becomes a power of religious persecution, as described in Revelation 13:11-17.

“I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.” Revelation 17:6

“To John this persecuting power [babylon] is represented as having horns like a lamb, but speaking like a dragon.” TM 117.

The scarlet BEAST “was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition.” Revelation 17:8.

This compares with what John was told about the chapter 13 papal beast:

“And I saw one of his HEADS as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed.” Revelation 13:3.

“The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth [king], and is of the seven [kings], and is going to perdition.” Revelation 17: 11.

So what do the seven heads represent?

“Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. The beast that was, and is not, is himself ALSO the eighth [king], AND is of the seven, and is going to perdition.” Revelation 17:9-11.

Israel was FIRST among nations:

“And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my FIRSTborn.” Exodus 4:22.

But the CROWN was removed when the last portion of Israel [Judah] was taken into Babylonian bondage:

"Thus saith the Lord God; Remove the diadem, and take off the CROWN: . . . exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until He come whose right it is; and I will give it Him." Ezekiel 21:26, 27.

“The crown removed from [1] Israel passed successively to the kingdoms of [2] Babylon, [3] Medo-Persia, [4] Greece, and [5] Rome.” ED 179.

Those four AFTER Israel correspond with the image Nebuchadnezzar saw in a dream. But Daniel and John saw these would be followed by the [6] papacy and the [7] United States Protestant power

“The beast that was, and is not [the papacy], is himself also THE EIGHTH, and IS OF THE SEVEN, and is going to perdition.” Revelation 17:11.

So why will the papal beast become a “scarlet” beast? Because it will then have taken on even more satanic characteristics [through spiritualism, etc.] like the chapter 12 red dragon.

This will be especially evident AFTER the PAPAL BEAST returns to MILITARY power, and no one “is able to MAKE WAR WITH HIM.”:

“And his [the papal beast’s] deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. So THEY WORSHIPED THE DRAGON [satan. Revelation 12:9] who gave authority to the beast; AND THEY WORSHIPED THE BEAST, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to MAKE WAR with him?’” Revelation 13:3-4.

The PROTESTANT United States is now the primary world power. But by establishing Sunday laws, this land will “RESTORE THE LOST ASCENDANCY [heal the ‘deadly wound’] of [the PAPACY].”

Note that this takes place in connection opening of THE FIFTH SEAL:

“PROTESTANTS will work upon the rulers of the land to MAKE LAWS to RESTORE THE LOST ASCENDANCY of the man of sin [the PAPACY], who sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Roman Catholic principles will be taken under the care and protection of the state. This NATIONAL APOSTASY will speedily be followed by NATIONAL RUIN [as in Revelation 18]. The protest of Bible truth will be no longer tolerated by those who have not made the law of God their rule of life. Then will the voice be heard from the graves of martyrs, represented by the souls that John saw [FIFTH SEAL] slain for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ which they held; then the prayer will ascend from every true child of God, ‘It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law.’” EGW in RH 6/15/1897.

Note above that “NATIONAL APOSTASY [in the United States] will speedily be followed by NATIONAL RUIN.” It is then that the PAPAL WOUND will be HEALED, and it will “SPRING AGAIN into active despotism.” It will then be said, “Who is like the PAPAL beast? Who is able to MAKE WAR with him?’” Revelation 13:4.

So it is the “NATIONAL RUIN” of the PROTESTANT base of power that will RESTORE MILITARY POWER TO THE PAPACY.

“When our nation shall so abjure the principles of its government as to enact a Sunday law, Protestantism will in this act join hands with popery; it will be nothing else than GIVING LIFE TO THE TYRANNY [THE PAPACY] which has long been eagerly watching its opportunity to SPRING AGAIN into active despotism.” 5T 711.

But while the PAPACY gains ascendancy, many of the false spiritualistic aspects of PROTESTANTISM will remain.

Concerning the PROTESTANT U.S. base of power, Revelation 13:13-15 says:

He performs great SIGNS, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those SIGNS which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

Revelation 19:19-20 says those are characteristics of the “false prophet” that will continue to work signs in the presence of the beast just before Jesus comes:

And I saw the [papal] beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him [JESUS] who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the [papal] beast was captured, and with him the [Protestant] false prophet who worked SIGNS in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

“Fearful sights [sIGNS] of a supernatural character will soon be revealed in the heavens, in token of the power of miracle-working demons. The spirits of devils will go forth to the kings of the earth and to the whole world, to fasten them in deception, and urge them on to unite with Satan in his last struggle against the government of heaven….

“As the crowning act in the great drama of deception, Satan himself will personate Christ. The church has long professed to look to the Saviour's advent as the consummation of her hopes. Now the great deceiver will make it appear that Christ has come. In different parts of the earth, Satan will manifest himself among men as a majestic being of dazzling brightness, resembling the description of the Son of God given by John in the Revelation. Revelation 1:13-15. The glory that surrounds him is unsurpassed by anything that mortal eyes have yet beheld. The shout of triumph rings out upon the air: "Christ has come! Christ has come!" The people prostrate themselves in adoration before him, while he lifts up his hands and pronounces a blessing upon them, as Christ blessed His disciples when He was upon the earth. His voice is soft and subdued, yet full of melody. In gentle, compassionate tones he presents some of the same gracious, heavenly truths which the Saviour uttered; he heals the diseases of the people, and then, in his assumed character of Christ, he claims to have changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and commands all to hallow the day which he has blessed. He declares that those who persist in keeping holy the seventh day are blaspheming his name by refusing to listen to his angels sent to them with light and truth. THIS IS THE STRONG, ALMOST OVERMASTERING DELUSION.” GC 624.

Revelation 8.10

And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great STAR from heaven [satan], burning like a torch [lightning], and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters

Luke 10.18

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

“So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Revelation 12:9.

“How you have fallen from heaven, O morning STAR, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” Isaiah 14:12 (New International Version)

How about the “ten horns” on the revelation 17 papal beast, representing “ten kings who...receive authority for one hour with the beast.” Revelation 17:11-12.

These end-time “kings” are described in Revelation 16:12-14

Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates [bABYLON], and its water was dried up [loss of power], so that the way of the KINGS from the east [in relation to Babylon. Probably Europe—as in Daniel 2:41-44] might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the KINGS of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

“The ten nations which were most instrumental in breaking up the Roman Empire, and which at some time in their history held respectively portions of Roman territory as separate and independent kingdoms, may be enumerated (without respect to the time of their establishment) as follows: Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Suevi, Burgundians, Heruli, Anglo-Saxons, and Lombards. The connection between these and some of the modern nations of Europe, is still traceable in the names, as England, Burgundy, Lombardy, France, etc.” D&R 58, by Uriah Smith.

“If England thinks it will pay, she will not hesitate a moment to improve her opportunities to exercise her power and humble our nation [the U.S.]. When England does declare war, ALL NATIONS will have an interest of their own to serve, and there will be general war, general confusion.” 1T 259.

“Today the signs of the times declare that we are standing on the threshold of great and solemn events. Everything in our world is in agitation. Before our eyes is fulfilling the Saviour's prophecy of the events to precede His coming: "Ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars. . . . Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places." Matthew 24:6, 7.

“The present is a time of overwhelming interest to all living. Rulers and statesmen, men who occupy positions of trust and authority, thinking men and women of all classes, have their attention fixed upon the events taking place about us. They are watching the strained, restless relations that exist among the nations. They observe the intensity that is taking possession of every earthly element, and they recognize that something great and decisive is about to take place—that the world is on the verge of a stupendous crisis.” ED 179.

[Dr. Rich]

Thanks JSM, yes, it would be good to understand clearly what this all means. You provided statements by EGW, but please do a study on who added the word "ALONE" in this:

"“The message of Revelation 14, announcing the fall of BABYLON must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. Since this message follows the warning of the judgment, it must be given in the last days; therefore it cannot refer to the Roman Church ALONE, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries."

EGW did not write the word "ALONE". It was added later and this little added word changed the whole meaning and understanding. This little word has confused everyone to believe that Rome was and is the same thing as the Great City aka Babylon. This is very sad!

The truth of the matter is that the Great City is Jerusalem (same city where Jesus was crucified) and it is no wonder the prophecy said it fell twice because God gave them two times to get get rid of sin and they failed both times. Now this same entity will attempt to rule the world with the help of Satan (the beast that comes up from the abyss) in the last five months of this world. You will see that the Jews, who are the ONLY religious entity that lost their way of worship in a war, (wounded head) will get their power back and again will have a temple and will set up Satan as their King along with all of the major religious entities (including Christians and Catholics) as ONE controlling government. It will be the 144K and the 5 Wise Virgins who will fight (not physically) with this "One World Government" and the multitude (bride) will make herself ready because of the acts of the 144K and the 5 wise virgins.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich (quoting): "“The message of Revelation 14, announcing the fall of BABYLON must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. Since this message follows the warning of the judgment, it must be given in the last days; therefore it cannot refer to the Roman Church ALONE, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries."

EGW did not write the word "ALONE". It was added later and this little added word changed the whole meaning and understanding.

Yes, word was added by Ellen White in the 1911 edition of Great Controversy, page 383.

See "W.W. Presscott and the 1911 Edition of the Great Controversy," page 30.

It states, "On page 383, the wording was changed to harmonize with the many statements in the book regarding Rome and the Catholic Church, and also to comport with the theme of the chapter as a whole. This was done by adding the word 'alone.'"

It is saying that Rev. 14 does not only refer to the Catholic Church but refers also to other Christian groups.

Compare the statement on page 381, The term Babylon "is employed in Scripture to designate the various forms of false or apostate religion."

Ellen White gave her approval for all changes of wording in the 1911 edition, as she did for any changes in her writings.

[Musicman1228]

There is a big problem here. We have been told that Ellen White wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which makes her statements infallible. So her original statement, "therefore it cannot refer to the Roman Church" must have been what God wanted her to say. Yet later WW Presscott (either under his own auspice or with the concurrence of EGW) changed the meaning by adding one word, 'alone'. From your perspective then this is a major catch-22; either God was correct in giving EGW the true meaning in the first instance, or God made a mistake and had to add a word to change the meaning in the second instance. Either way God made a mistake, which EGW readily went along with. Now we all know that God does not make mistakes; e.g. the god that gave EGW this information could not have been the same God that gave prophecy to Daniel and John. A prophet is only as good as his/her source. No prophet of God can make this kind of mistake and still be considered to be a true prophet.

[Dr. Rich]

John, are you forgetting the prophecy in Daniel where God said that the dominion would be taken away from Rome and it also would be thrown in the fire--as in toast? This would show that Rome could not possible be the wounded head, nor the beast, nor "Babylon", could it?

Sure, nobody is saying that the Catholic Church is righteous--neither is the SDA Church. The SDA Church is still practicing many things given to it by the Catholic Church.

By saying that the Sunday law is prophesied, isn't that adding to what is written in the book of Revelation?

How can you refute that the 'Great City' is not Jerusalem?

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: There is a big problem here. We have been told that Ellen White wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which makes her statements infallible. So her original statement, "therefore it cannot refer to the Roman Church" must have been what God wanted her to say.

Could I speak really honestly and forthrightly with you, Dr. Rich? ( OK, thank you-- I am sure I heard you answer, "please do.")

You seem to have a significant misunderstanding of inspiration. As a church, we don't believe in verbal inspiration. God didn't dictate the Bible or the writings of Ellen White. If you had seen Ellen White writing her articles, you would have seen many changes in her sentences and in the words she chose between her first draft and her final draft. If that's a shock to you, it's because you don't understand how inspiration works. I'm surprised at this, Dr. Rich, because you've been an SDA for a long time and have read a great deal of Ellen White's writings. Please re-read Selected Messages, vol. 1, pages 15-33, and paying special attention to what she says on pages 24-26. She wrote those pages to a man who had a view of inspiration evidently much like your own.

There is no real difference between the statement in the 1888 edition of GC and in the 1911 edition. I enjoy using both editions, and in fact I prefer the 1888 edition in some ways. The statement in the 1888 edition says basically the same thing. The sentence as it reads in the 1911 edition is simply expressed more clearly in order to avoid any misunderstanding of what it being said.

Without the word "alone," the reader might think she was saying Rev. 14 does not refer to the Catholic Church at all, but that is not what she meant. It refers to the Catholic Church but not ONLY to the Catholic Church. It also refers to the fallen protestant churches. On page 381: par. 1, she had already stated that the term "Babylon" "is employed in Scripture to designate the various forms of false or apostate religion." Therefore it is clear that it's not referring only to the Roman Catholic Church. The addition of the word "alone," then, was made to make that point clear.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Yet later WW Presscott (either under his own auspice or with the concurrence of EGW) changed the meaning by adding one word, 'alone'.

W. W. Prescott was given the responsibility of going through The Great Controversy and making suggestions of changes. Some were accepeted and others rejected.

Here's how it came about that The Great Controversy went through a new edition:

In Jan. 1910, the manager of the Pacific Press wrote to Willie White concerning the Great Controversy:

"It will be necessary to print another edition of this book on or before July, 1910. You are aware that the plates are worn out. New plates ought to be made before printing another edition."

This set in motion plans for resetting the type and the mkaing of new printing plates. The work was entered upon with no expectation of any aleration of the text. It was merely a routine undertaking, but embodying plans to improve the illustrations, etc. Type-setting and plate making commenced immediately. Ellen White informs us, however, of her attitude toward the project:

"When I learned that Great Controversy must be reset, I determined that we would have everything closely examined, to see if the truths it contained were stated in the very best manner, to convince those not of our faith that the Lord had guided and sustained me in the writing of its pages." Ellen White to FMW, July 25, 1911.

This, together with a long-standing request that the historical quotations in the book be properly credited, prompted W. C. White to call a halt in the operation. The considerations led him to take up correspondence with the book committees of both the Pacific Press and the Review and Herald and to confer with several individuals opening the way for suggestions relating to the new reset book.

One of the individuals Willie White conferred with was Professor W.W. Prescott. He did so in connection with a trip to Washington in early April, 1910. In a matter of two or three weeks, Prescott submitted his report to W.C. White. This was in the form of a 39-page, double-spaced letter, dated April 26, 1910. This letter is available for anyone's examination.

Copies of the entire letter are available under the title, "W. W. Prescott and the 1911 Edition of Great Controversy."

Quote:

Dr. Rich: From your perspective then this is a major catch-22; either God was correct in giving EGW the true meaning in the first instance, or God made a mistake and had to add a word to change the meaning in the second instance. Either way God made a mistake, which EGW readily went along with. Now we all know that God does not make mistakes; e.g. the god that gave EGW this information could not have been the same God that gave prophecy to Daniel and John. A prophet is only as good as his/her source. No prophet of God can make this kind of mistake and still be considered to be a true prophet.

The above statement shows why you have the mistaken beliefs and understandings you have. As I said before, there's no essential difference between the meaning of what's written in the 1888 edition and the 1911 edition. SDAs use both editions.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: are you forgetting the prophecy in Daniel where God said that the dominion would be taken away from Rome and it also would be thrown in the fire--as in toast? This would show that Rome could not possible be the wounded head, nor the beast, nor "Babylon", could it?

No, I'm not forgetting it. I think the problem is that you're mininterpretating the verse. It's detroyed at the Second Coming, and the prophet Daniel is being shown what will happen to this power. In other words, Daniel 7: 11 is aniticipating the judgment of the fourth beast, the carrier of the little-horn power. The announcement of its judgment comes before the execution of that judgment. The execution of the judgment occurs at the Second Coming of Christ.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Sure, nobody is saying that the Catholic Church is righteous--neither is the SDA Church. The SDA Church is still practicing many things given to it by the Catholic Church.

Why do you always seem to have such negative things to say about the church that you claim to believe is the Kingdom of God? No one said the SDA church is perfect or that it doesn't have great faults. Ellen White herself, on the basis of the visions God gave her, said it has great faults.

What are some of the "many things" the Catholic Church gave the SDA church that you believe God's church is still practicing?

Quote:

Dr. Rich: By saying that the Sunday law is prophesied, isn't that adding to what is written in the book of Revelation?

No, it is a justifiable and true interpretation of what the book of Revelations says will happen. Interpretations of prophecy are not the same as adding to what is written in prophecy. If that were the case, we wouldn't be able to explain what it means without "adding" to it.

As usual, you are in opposition to what the SDA church teaches. If I disagreed with the church as much as you do, I wouldn't want to be a part of it. I'm a member of the church because I support its doctrines. If I didn't, I wouldn't have joined it and I certainly wouldn't continue being a member. I tell people I'm SDA because I actually believe its teachings and support it. I love my church and don't bash it or enjoy listening to others bash it. Jesus points out the church's defects and problems, but He does it with love in His voice and as He appeals to it to repent and surrender completely to Him.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: How can you refute that the 'Great City' is not Jerusalem?

Explain from the Bible why you believe it's Jerusalem.

[Musicman1228]

John317 said, "Explain from the Bible why you believe it's Jerusalem."

This is an easy one to explain.

And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. Rev.11:7-8.

If I am not mistaken this indicates Jerusalem NOT Rome.

[Dr. Rich]

John wrote: "In other words, Daniel 7: 11 is aniticipating the judgment of the fourth beast, the carrier of the little-horn power. The announcement of its judgment comes before the execution of that judgment. The execution of the judgment occurs at the Second Coming of Christ."

Did you read verse 12? "As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time."

Answer this: IF Rome gets throne into the fire a the Second Coming, then why does God have the Leopard and Bear (beasts) them living longer than Rome? How can that be? If Rome is gone and leopard and bear get to live longer, please explain this if you can. (I can if you can't)

John also wrote: "If I disagreed with the church as much as you do, I wouldn't want to be a part of it. I'm a member of the church because I support its doctrines."

Yes John, but what you don't see is the truth, but IF you did then even IF you found a doctrine that was not correct you could NOT leave because knowing the truth about who the SDA Church is all about makes a huge difference in an attitude. Even though Jesus found many things wrong with Israel/Jews, He said He came to save the lost from this group. Jesus did not quit because He found something wrong with their understanding as you probably would.

What you are doing is looking at the picture from the skin view. You refuse to dive deep for fear you will find something that may cause you to leave. Knowing the truth about the Kingdom of Heaven will melt your fear towards those who find fault and prove it from the words of Jesus. It is because we (our group) know this truth and want to share it people in order for the 144K to have unity. I tell you the truth John, I do care about my fellow SDA members and that is the reason I share the testimony of Jesus.

[Dr. Rich]

John wrote: "You seem to have a significant misunderstanding of inspiration. As a church, we don't believe in verbal inspiration. God didn't dictate the Bible or the writings of Ellen White. If you had seen Ellen White writing her articles, you would have seen many changes in her sentences and in the words she chose between her first draft and her final draft. If that's a shock to you, it's because you don't understand how inspiration works. I'm surprised at this, Dr. Rich, because you've been an SDA for a long time and have read a great deal of Ellen White's writings. Please re-read Selected Messages, vol. 1, pages 15-33, and paying special attention to what she says on pages 24-26. She wrote those pages to a man who had a view of inspiration evidently much like your own."

If you want to read what I helped to write about 'inspiration' then go to our web site. I happen to agree with MM because we talked about this before he wrote it and placed it onto our site.

[John317]

Quote:

John317: Explain from the Bible why you believe it's Jerusalem.

Quote:

Musicman1228: This is an easy one to explain.

And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. Rev.11:7-8.

The phrase, "symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified," is symbolic, so it is not referring to literal Jerusalem. It's speaking of a place where God is spiritually killed. To murder God's witnesses is to murder God. Compare Daniel 8: 10 and Rev. 11: 2. Both prophecies have in mind the same event.

Check out books such as the SDA Bible Commentary on Rev. 11; God Cares, Vol. 2, Mervyn Maxwell; Secrets of Revelation, The Apocalypse Through Hebrew Eyes, Jacques B. Doukhan, a Jewish SDA professor of Hebrew, pp. 96-10; The Prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, Uriah Smith, pp. 531-542; The Message of Revelation, Vol. 1, Henry L. Rudy, pp. 198-203; The Revelation of Jesus Christ, Commentary On the Book of Revelation, Ranko Stefanovic, pp. 335-354; and the Story of the Seer of Patmos, Stephen N. Haskell, pp. 191-208.

[Dr. Rich]

John, every one of the books that you mention are old books and none of the authors have a clue as to what is the real truth. All of them attempt to smash a square peg into a round hole. I knew Mervyn Maxwell personally and his so called secrets are nonsense.

By you suggesting anyone reading this junk shows me where you stand. You stand among those who will be surprised to learn that they have been duped into believing people who built their foundation on someone other than the words of Jesus Christ given to us by His eyewitnesses.

You might want to know that I was raised with some of this stuff, so I am very familiar with what they teach.

Interestingly, the Jehovah Witness' new book on Daniel and Revelation is closer to the truth then these books. What was important in their last book on prophecy is that they admitted they could be wrong and are open to new truth--even if that truth did away with old truth. It is too bad that the writers of the books you presented here didn't do the same. They violated one of the seven rules for understanding prophecy.

[Musicman1228]

If everything is symbolic then you can literally (pun intended) make anything mean anything. It is a cheap and easy way of sidestepping the hard parts of prophecy. "Where their Lord was crucified" means just what it says, which indicates that Jerusalem is the 'great city'. If this is symbolic then you would have to make everything in prophecy symbolic including symbols themselves. If 'the great city' is a symbol that does not mean Jerusalem then it can't mean Rome either, unless 'Rome' is a symbol for something else. And if 'Rome' is a symbol for something else then of what is it a symbol.

It is this kind of cavalier attitude toward prophecy that make it impossible for the uninitiated and unwashed to understand. It is this kind of explanation that gives power to the 'experts' of prophetic exegesis to claim that only 'they' can really know what prophecy means. It is a way for the self proclaimed priesthood, both academic and theologic, to gain and keep control over the minds and hearts of the masses by not giving them any means to come to a reasonable and duplicatable understanding ON THEIR OWN. This is why in the SDA church 'Bible study' usually means going to EGW first and seeing what she says on the subject and then formulate your understanding from that. There has not been any real ground breaking understanding in our church for at least 100 years. What does that say about our commitment to truth. The only truth that the die hard SDA rank and file member gets is truth that is filtered through the lens of what EGW and the church hierarchy says is true. The only thing that is learned in the seminaries of Adventism today is a 'better' way of teaching the same old and tired dogma. That is what Jesus Christ is speaking about in the message to the church of Laodicea.

For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. Rev. 3:17.

But you will never put yourself in this picture because you believe with all your heart that this verse cannot be talking about you, no sir. You believe that this verse is talking about the rest of the Christian world not the SDA church. But these messages to the 7 churches are not talking about the church in the world, it is speaking to those who are in the Kingdom of Heaven, and that IS the SDA church. But you will NEVER admit this because to do so would make the church and it's leadership liable for being wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked, and God would NEVER say this about HIS true church, would He?

[jsm]

Denying the divine inspiration of EGW based on a change in word or words shows a lack of adequate Bible study and understanding.

As one of several examples, compare the 10 commandments in Exodus 20 with what Moses later wrote in Deuteronomy 5.

Jesus certainly believed Moses was inspired:

John 5.46

For had you believed Moses, you would have believed Me: for he wrote of Me.

Also, If Moses did all his own writing, then how did he write about his own death in Deuteronomy 34?

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: every one of the books that you mention are old books.

I think you better go look again.

I hope this isn't an example of how observant you are or of the kind of information you give out.

They are not all old, but even if they were old, the Bible is old and so are many very good and worth while books. All books get old. "Old" does not mean "useless" or "wrong."

If you think all the books I listed are old, maybe "old" to you is 8 years. Or 2 years?

Mervyn Maxwell's book was published in 1985. What difference does it make that it was published 25 years ago. Is that too old? That's ridiculous.

You mentioned that you knew Mervyn Maxwell. I didn't know him personally but I did talk to him and hear him give some great talks on the history of the SDA church at camp meeting one year. And I am good friends with one of his brothers. Mervyn Maxwell was a wonderful Bible and history scholar, and he knew SDA history very well. You can't become a professor in those disciplines without knowing your subject.

And yes, after studying these things for as long as I have, I can tell when someone knows the Bible and the prophecies. Mervyn Maxwell knew the Bible.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: every one of the books that you mention are old books..

Two of the books are under the age of 6, and one is about 2. Is that "old" to you?

Quote:

and none of the authors have a clue as to what is the real truth.

I'm sorry, Dr. Rich. It is you who have demonstrated that you don't know what is truth. I hope what you are saying is not in harmony with your two friends. You seem somehow like a different kind of person from those two gentlemen.

Quote:

All of them attempt to smash a square peg into a round hole. I knew Mervyn Maxwell personally and his so called secrets are nonsense.

Dr. Maxwell was a wonderful Christian and a great scholar. I really enjoyed his book, Tell It To the World, his history of the SDA church.

Quote:

By you suggesting anyone reading this junk shows me where you stand.

You are judging yourself when you talk that way about books on the Bible by SDA scholars.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: You might want to know that I was raised with some of this stuff, so I am very familiar with what they teach.

Stuff, is it? I think I'm beginning to get a clear picture of you, Dr. Rich. You are revealing much.

Quote:

Dr Rich: Interestingly, the Jehovah Witness' new book on Daniel and Revelation is closer to the truth then these books.

I've read their books on prophecy. I'm not at all surprised that you would say that the Jehovah's Witnesses book is closer to the truth than the books I listed, written by Seventh-day Adventist scholars. I'm not at all surprised. I am only wondering if your friends, Wayfinder and Musicman, agree with your sentiments. I suspect not. At least I should hope not.

What is the name of their "new book on Daniel and Revelation"? Have you read it all? What do they teach about Daniel 8: 14 and the 144,000?

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. Rev. 3:17.

But you will never put yourself in this picture because you believe with all your heart that this verse cannot be talking about you, no sir. You believe that this verse is talking about the rest of the Christian world not the SDA church. But these messages to the 7 churches are not talking about the church in the world, it is speaking to those who are in the Kingdom of Heaven, and that IS the SDA church. But you will NEVER admit this because to do so would make the church and it's leadership liable for being wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked, and God would NEVER say this about HIS true church, would He?

Sure, I believe the letter to the Laodicean church is Christ's message for the SDA church. Seventh-day Adventists have know this for over 140 years. The Laodicean condition is the reason the church is still on earth. Christ, the True Witness, tells the truth about His true church.

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: If everything is symbolic then you can literally (pun intended) make anything mean anything.

The Scriptures themselves say that it's symbolic, or figurative. Therefore it can't be understood literally. See Rev. 11: 8. The witnesses are not literal men. The language of the entire passage proves that.

Quote:

Musicman1228: It is a cheap and easy way of sidestepping the hard parts of prophecy. "Where their Lord was crucified" means just what it says, which indicates that Jerusalem is the 'great city'. If this is symbolic then you would have to make everything in prophecy symbolic including symbols themselves. If 'the great city' is a symbol that does not mean Jerusalem then it can't mean Rome either, unless 'Rome' is a symbol for something else. And if 'Rome' is a symbol for something else then of what is it a symbol.

It's true that the "great city" in Rev. 11: 8 is neither Rome nor Jerusalem.

What significance is there that the word "bodies" in Rev. 11: 8, 9 is actually singular?

It really reads, "their dead body." Why?

[John317]

Denying the divine inspiration of EGW based on a change in word or words shows a lack of adequate Bible study and understanding.

As one of several examples, compare the 10 commandments in Exodus 20 with what Moses later wrote in Deuteronomy 5.

Jesus certainly believed Moses was inspired:

John 5.46

For had you believed Moses, you would have believed Me: for he wrote of Me.

Also, If Moses did all his own writing, then how did he write about his own death in Deuteronomy 34?

AMEN!!

[Musicman1228]

And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. Rev.11:7-8.

John317 said, "The Scriptures themselves say that it's symbolic, or figurative. Therefore it can't be understood literally. See Rev. 11: 8. The witnesses are not literal men. The language of the entire passage proves that."

This is your OPINION, John, not fact just because you say it. EVERYTHING is symbolic to someone that can't face the alternative. The two witnesses have FEET. Are these FEET that they stand on symbolic as well? They would have to be if you take the position that the two witnesses are the Old and New Testament. But the language does not support this interpretation. The Two Witnesses are two real people that lead the 144,000 and the saints into battle with the Beast. They are killed at the end of their testimony. They are dead a literal 3 1/2 days, and then God breathes the breath of life into them and they are resurrected and go to Heaven. If this is not literal then everything in the passage is symbolic, including the breath of life from God. Is the breath that causes you to be alive right now symbolic? If it is symbolic then are you really alive, or just symbolically alive? If Truth is immutable and everlasting then the information in the Old and New Testaments that is true CANNOT be killed. God would NEVER allow Satan to literally kill the truth. Also, being killed implies that those that are killed are ALIVE up until the moment of death. The Old and New Testament are not living beings with the breath of life in them.

Look at it again. The only reason to believe the way you do is that you must support what EGW said. If she is wrong in this then it is just possible that she is wrong about other things, and this is something you just cannot handle. Therefore you must believe these Two Witnesses are symbolic of inanimate objects.

[jsm]

2 Peter 3:15-16 (New International Version)

Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, AS THEY DO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, to their own destruction.

[Dr. Rich]

John wrote "What significance is there that the word "bodies" in Rev. 11: 8, 9 is actually singular? It really reads, "their dead body." Why?"

First of all, none of my bibles have a singular body. ALL of them are plural as in real two witnesses. Are you using the "[un]Clear Word Bible"?

Second, John I find that you are completely unfair. Your postings are highly prejudicial and when you call me names and say that I am teaching false understanding, you remove my honest rebuttal saying that it is a violation. Well, God knows the truth John and the removal did not go un-noticed by Him.

Then you slam me by saying that I am a horrible person for what I am writing and that I am different than wayfinder and MM. Well, it is true that I am more bolder for Peter too was more bolder than the other disciples. We all have different characteristics. If you want to debate fairly, then do so-but don't call me a liar. This goes for Mark and Stan too.

Wayfinder asked for you to respond to his question on if the Jews in Jesus' day had a blog like this and Jesus wrote on it, what is your opinion on how Jesus would have been treated? Would you say that He would have violated your rules by calling them vipers?

Personally John, my opinion of you has changed. I once thought you were a person searching for the truth but your actions show me that you refuse to allow anyone to present evidence proving your belief is wrong because it was not built upon the words of Jesus. How sad!

[Dr. Rich]

"Mervyn Maxwell's book was published in 1985. What difference does it make that it was published 25 years ago. Is that too old? That's ridiculous."

"OLD" means that all of the authors you presented still held to the teachings of people other than Jesus Christ given to us by His eyewitnesses.

"NEW" means presenting the facts (evidence) from the words of Jesus because of the problem(s) found in Revelation 2 and 3.

John, when a writer (any writer) attempts to teach people with the same old understanding and long held belief founded upon people who are long dead and who were not eyewitnesses of Jesus Christ, then his whole book is tainted even though it may sound good. Even though "Truth" and "Trooth" sound the same, there is only one correct spelling. When I said 'OLD' I was saying that these books contained "trooth" only.

[jsm]

We all need to be on guard against false teachings; and our safety comes by the combination of asking the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, and then studying the Bible [individually and with others]to compare spiritual things with spiritual - here a little and there a little.

I believe what I have written in this thread to be Bible based, and I'm sure MM, Rich, and WF believe the same about their strange interpretations.

But with too much pushing by any of us against presently held beliefs, what we say can become like a dead fish. It soon begins to stink!

I believe the best way is to present ideas once or twice and answer RELATED questions, and then let the Holy Spirit and time help people to understand whether what we say is of God.

I believe Jesus had this in mind when telling His disciple:

"Whoever does not receive you, nor hear your words, when you depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet." Matthew 10:14.

Jesus also said: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits." Matthew 7:15-16.

And Paul repeated that vicious wolf comparison when he said: "I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves." Acts 20:29-30.

"Let none be self-confident, as though God had given them special light above their brethren...This has been tried again and again. One accepts some new and original idea which does not seem to conflict with the truth. He talks of it and dwells upon it until it seems to him to be clothed with beauty and importance, for Satan has power to give this false appearance. At last it becomes the all-absorbing theme, the one great point around which everything centers; and the truth is uprooted from the heart." 5T 291-2.

I pray that all of us will seek the truth in humility.

[Dr. Rich]

jsm, what does "who come to you in sheeps clothing" mean to you?