How does it affect you?

[phkrause]

Even worse is when someone deliberately swerves to hit and kill your dog, who is sitting at the end of the driveway, NOT in the road at all.

This happen to my dog, even though I can't really say it was deliberate, they should have hit me, because I was actually further out in the road than the dog.

pk

[pindoc]

Please, please folks. Those wild animals have to eat. It's not personal, it's just business.

Okay, maybe quoting Al Pacino won't effectively forward my position.

Gerry, that doesn't sound like any fun, watching an animal jerking around b4 it died. That does suck. However, it also means that you had too small a weapon for the prey.

But, you want to rate nature shows "R"? Less than 50 years ago it was forbidden to show an animal giving birth on television. It would damage children to see that. Wasn't that part of a television program connected w/ Rachel Carson? Couldn't find it, I just searched online. Obviously none of those media corporate folks had ever visited a farm, let alone lived on one. Animals eat each other, they protect themselves at other animals' cost, they have babies and pee and poop.

Until we get to heaven, cheetahs are going to feast on slow gazelles, not on grass and berries.

Lynn - former small breeder of rats for pets and food, and great-granddaughter of Viola Johnson, who could break a chicken's neck w/ one swift twist

[Dr. Rich]

Alex wrote "Death is our enemy. We brought it into the world when we chose sin over obedience. One day I hope we can all say "O Death, where is thy sting!"

Hey Alex, do you have a mouse in your pocket? Who is this "WE"? Did not God make Adam (and Eve for that matter) mortal? Were not they going to die even IF they did not eat from the tree of knowledge? I can't find anything in my bible (and my bible is NOT Holy, but it does cause people to become Holy) where God said that Adam's failure to obey Him caused him to die and caused everyone of us to die. Perhaps it is an oversight on my part, so if you would be so kind, please help me out here.

From what I understand, the ONLY thing that would keep Adam and Eve alive was the tree of life. The animals (prey and predators alike) did not have any access to this tree of life, so they were going to live and die from the git-go.

By the way, please read all of Isaiah 65 and you will see that the description is not heaven, but what God would do for Israel IF they did what they were supposed to do. This is where you get the lion and the lamb grazing together. This is also where you see that the people will ONLY live as long as the life time of a tree (verse 22)

It is/was a mistaken idea that has been passed down thru the ages that this was all about heaven and the new earth AFTER the righteous go to heaven.

Jer. 22:10 "Do not weep for the dead or mourn for him.."

Mat. 8:22 "Let the dead bury the dead."

[Gerr]

Rich, your theology is appalling. God made A & E mortal even if they did not eat of the tree?

[SivartM]

Um, Dr. Rich, does "no more pain" (which is in Revelation) mean that animals will still have pain on the new earth? Or do you think that animals scream and cry like we do because they feel like it, and they don't have pain?

Again, I see no reason why I should not eat you. God made me to, apparently. It's only fortunate for you that I have no desire to do so.

[phkrause]

Interesting thoughts Dr. Rich, but I have to disagree with you. I believe we were created immortal and to live forever! Didn't God tell Adam and Eve to eat from every tree except one, and if they did eat from that tree that than they would die? I'm not sure about the animals, but also believe that they were not meat eaters or that they would die. And originally humans were given nuts, fruits and grains to eat, and than God added vegetables to our diets. A pastor I had back a few years mentioned that the animals actually had the vegetables to eat before sin enter the world.

pk

[GreatLakesGramma]

Dr. Rich, have you not read Romans?

"And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom 5:12-21.

[LifeHiscost]

Oh, so gorillas can eat him, but I can't? No fair!

We know it's not fair, but it could be a circus.

[LifeHiscost]

I watched my cat die this morning and it wrenched my heart out. At least she was surrounded by her loving family who will forever miss the unconditional love she gave to us.

Death is our enemy.

Alex

Your experience with your cat reminds me of a scene I recently saw re: the trade in China where both cats and dogs are captured and taken to slaughter houses where they are reduced to pelts for the use of people, some in the U.S., as fur collars for their coats.

O Lord, save me from this heartless generation.

"He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!" Revelation 22:20 NKJV

Blessings!!

[SivartM]

Your experience with your cat reminds me of a scene I recently saw re: the trade in China where both cats and dogs are captured and taken to slaughter houses where they are reduced to pelts for the use of people, some in the U.S., as fur collars for their coats.

O Lord, save me from this heartless generation.

"He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!" Revelation 22:20 NKJV

Blessings!!

Ew, I'm so glad I don't wear fur.

Then again, most people have no problem with people doing that to cows and other such "dumb animals". :(

[LifeHiscost]

#351168 - Yesterday at 10:06

"And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”Revelation 21:3 NKJV

Regards!

And I'm sorry you don't believe in God's Word. What would the next best thing be and be sufficient hope for eternity?

[Dr. Rich]

I did not say I did not believe in Heaven and an Earth made new--for I do indeed. Check out what the leaves of the tree of life are used for and then check who it is that gets to eat from the fruit of this tree? It is clear to me that you people just don't know your bible like you think you do. Sure, you are free to believe what ever you want to believe--even to believe you were once a mouse like other people do, but it does not make it correct.

There is a major difference between what God had in mind for Israel as found in Isaiah from the words in Revelation. Nor more pain or crying for humans, but it does NOT say anything about animals in Revelation--does it?

Let's face it, the punishment for Adam was to be killed on the SAME day he touched the tree of knowing good and evil--the consequence of not obeying was that he was removed from the garden where the tree of life was. This would mean dying a natural death or one from accident. You can read that IF Adam would have been able to have access to this tree even after his disobedience that it is clearly understood that he could and would keep on living. It was the tree of life that kept him from dying--not that he was made immortal. How foolish to even think that???

Now, as for the animals that ate plants--check this out: Plants keep growing and the only thing that will get rid of the plant is if something kills it and that can happen when something eats it. So God gave us dinosaurs (large reptiles) to be the 'lawnmowers' and then God gave us predators to keep the 'lawnmowers' in check.

Believe it or not--it is your choice. As to being pathetic? I find that most people who call themselves and Adventist or even a Christian are totally clueless about the truth of the bible just as one who posted Paul's words in Romans thought that these words are the same as Gods. I don't mind you calling them Paul's words, but please don't say that God said these words because that is the same thing as calling God a liar. If you want a real good argument, then provide evidence from the OT and from the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses. Isn't this the right thing to do?

As for animals dying-yes, it is a sad thing, but people dying without knowing the truth about Jesus is sad too! Animals don't and can't sin--even if they do kill and eat each other.

[SivartM]

Basically, God designed creatures to destroy each other.

That does not make sense. But I really don't know why you are so surprised on an Adventist forum when people disagree with your (at the very least) aberrant ideas. Revelation says no more pain, period. It does not say that only humans will not have pain. The Bible does not say that the tree of life was what kept Adam from dying. Et cetera.

[Dr. Rich]

SivartM wrote: "The Bible does not say that the tree of life was what kept Adam from dying. Et cetera." Please read Gen. 3:22

[SivartM]

That was after Adam sinned and lost his immortality.

[Dr. Rich]

And you actually read this in Genesis? I guess I missed this some where along the line. My bible does not show me anywhere that Adam was ever made immortal. Hmmm?? If you say so. (Of course it would be nice to have a bible verse or two on this.)

[John317]

Of course Adam was not made immortal. He was made with the ability of dying if he rebelled against God.

God made Adam so that he was capable of becoming immortal if he obeyed God. If Adam had eaten of the Tree of Life, he would have continued to live forever. Gen. 3: 22-24.

[LifeHiscost]

And you actually read this in Genesis? I guess I missed this some where along the line. My bible does not show me anywhere that Adam was ever made immortal. Hmmm?? If you say so. (Of course it would be nice to have a bible verse or two on this.)

I'm not sure of sometime in the past but I'm sure of the present.

"...He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen."

[Gerr]

Please, please folks. Those wild animals have to eat. It's not personal, it's just business.

It's true that all have to eat, but it's a dirty mess having one animal loss its life so that another could live. Yes, in Dr. Rich's world, death apparently is "just business." Not a flattering picture of a loving, omnipotent God, IMO.

Quote:

Gerry, that doesn't sound like any fun, watching an animal jerking around b4 it died. That does suck. However, it also means that you had too small a weapon for the prey.

Well, the first one I hit, it jumped, and by the time it hit the ground, it was totally still.

[olger]

Bravus is correct.

.22-250 or .223

The new 17's look good too.

[Overaged]

It is clear to me that you people just don't know your bible like you think you do. Sure, you are free to believe what ever you want to believe--even to believe you were once a mouse like other people do, but it does not make it correct.

Believe it or not--it is your choice. As to being pathetic? I find that most people who call themselves and Adventist or even a Christian are totally clueless about the truth of the bible

Many people have come and gone before you and tried to ridicule the Bible and/or Adventists like this. You and your followers on this forum have simply joined the atheists in all of their many Bible excuses, which btw are very Catholic in nature.

Catholics are desperate to disprove the Bible in order to elevate their "tradition" and in essence, this is all you are doing. You have stated on your web site and on this forum that everyone is wrong but you and your followers when it comes to the Bible, and this alone is a sure sign that you are doing something wrong.

[Overaged]

I watched my cat die this morning and it wrenched my heart out. At least she was surrounded by her loving family who will forever miss the unconditional love she gave to us.

Death is our enemy. We brought it into the world when we chose sin over obedience. One day I hope we can all say "O Death, where is thy sting!"

I have more info and pics on blog (link below)

Alex

Robert Frost was right.

[Dr. Rich]

John 317, that is what I thought too. I guess some of these people know more then you and I. We all have the choice to become immortal but it is conditional, just as much as it was with Adam.

[LifeHiscost]

John 317, that is what I thought too. I guess some of these people know more then you and I. We all have the choice to become immortal but it is conditional, just as much as it was with Adam.

To accept His promises, these are the conditions and these are the promises.

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory."1 Corinthians 15:52-54 NKJV

"“I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25,26 NKJV

JOY!!JOY!!JOY!!

[Dr. Shane]

The Bible seems to clearly teach that there will be no death in heaven or on the new Earth. It also teaches that humans will become immortal. The question becomes "Is this a restoration?"

If it is a restoration that means that man was at one time immortal. It also means that at one time there were no animal predators. That would also mean that there was a creative work accomplished by God after the Fall.