The most abusive Christian phrase ...

[Bravus]

You're essentially restating my position, though, Neil, if you concede that some parts of the Bible are less inspired than others. I look forward to your response once you wake up.

In response to John317, two points:

(but first, again let me say I'm really enjoying the discussion, and the fact that I keep bringing counterpoints doesn't mean we're in any way hostile in this discussion: we're each attempting to understand)

1. The analogy between human courts and a divine court is not perfect, of course, but what kind of moral authority would a court system charged with prosecuting murders have if its representatives regularly murdered people themselves? And so on. If God is to judge us, how can he have moral authority if he habitually does the evil things he prosecutes us for?

2. I don't know the details of your life, but I kind of doubt you did things for which a human court would sentence you to death. Why is a divine court different? Death destroys the possibility of repentance and restitution. Killing is not the solution to the vast majority of moral failings. Killing is not the first resort, it's beyond the last resort, particularly if it robs its victim of the possibility for eternal life.

[cardw]

Ok, so assuming that is what you're saying, do you believe that the one who makes something can do what He wants with his creation? My question, then, is, what right does humanity have to tell God what to do with those who have rebelled against Him? Does He owe humanity anything?

[LifeHiscost]

Yes, one can certainly find lots of terrible things in the Old Testament.

But think of it this way: couldn't a person go through a Medical Text-book and do the same thing? In other words, suppose we cut out all the gory illustrations and photographs and show them to someone apart from their proper context? A viewer might consider some of them pornographic, and other pictures might look like they were taken in order to stimulate a sadist.

Why would that be wrong? Because the pictures in their context are about healing and attempts to help people. The pictures are for the purpose of teaching doctors how to heal hurt people.

So it is with the stories in the Bible. They show us about the problem of sin. They are illustrations, but if we take them out of their context of salvation and God's work to finally save the world through the Messiah, they are hard to make sense of.

Thank you much for that post, John317. I am not a favorite fan of insisting that one can only find truth when it is included within the context of it's original revelation, but your post clearly reveals a benefit that, it would seem, one would never receive any other way.

OTOH, if one could read the heart of the person who finds fault with God (Who is love BTW), the problem of not being able to see Him for Who He is, would be instantly revealed, which of course will be at last revealed to all of the saved during the thousand years reign with Christ after His soon return, when it is too late for the impenitent to benefit from their remorse, and the knee bowed before the majesty of the King will be universal.

"Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?" John 14:9 NKJV

"Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."Philippians 2:9-11 NKJV

"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. "1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB

Blessings!!

[Bravus]

Yeah, that must be it. God's evil actions must be my fault. Or at least, my ability to perceive those actions betrays a flaw in my own character. If I wasn't flawed, I'd be able to understand how murder, rape and slavery are evidence of love.

[John317]

Quote:

Bravus: I don't know the details of your life, but I kind of doubt you did things for which a human court would sentence you to death. Why is a divine court different? Death destroys the possibility of repentance and restitution. Killing is not the solution to the vast majority of moral failings. Killing is not the first resort, it's beyond the last resort, particularly if it robs its victim of the possibility for eternal life.

Yes, I agree that a human court wouldn't sentence me to death, but then God's righteousness and holiness can't be compared to the justice of a human court except in the most relative terms.

What do you think of God's making Adam and Eve leave the Garden when they disobeyed his command not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Adam and Eve were told that if they should eat of the fruit they would die. And then when God kept them from eating of the tree of life, it was with the knowledge and permissive will that they would eventually die, or return to dust. (From the Bible viewpoint, of course, this was only the first death, which from God's persepective is only a sleep because there will be a resurrection.)

Their death was due to disobediene to God's command not to eat of the fruit of that one tree. Did they deserve to die because of their disobedience?

I understand that not everyone believes in the story of Adam and Eve, but for our discussion, it doesn't matter whether it's literally true or not. We're just talking about whether the God in the story would be right to do what He did, assuming that the rest of the Bible's view of God is all true. I know that's a real big assumption! :-)

Well, at 1: 35 am, it's time I'm

[LifeHiscost]

Well it seems that if the story of raping the virgins being ordered by god is in the Bible it would imply that it has a message.

I'd be interested in knowing where the Scripture is that points out God's orders for His followers to commit rape?

Regards!!

[Bravus]

I quoted it above (a couple of pages back). To be fair it was one of God's appointed leaders rather than a direct commandment. Will dig up the reference shortly.

Yep:

Quote:

Numbers 31:

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them.

...

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man.

...

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

19 "All of you who have killed anyone or touched anyone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood."

21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, "This is the requirement of the law that the LORD gave Moses: 22 Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead 23 and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. 24 On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp."

Dividing the Spoils

25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep or goats. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part. 30 From the Israelites' half, select one out of every fifty, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep, goats or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle." 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

God orders the battle, and God orders the divvying up of the spoils, including the young virgins. And, again, unless you believe that those young virgin girls were capable of giving informed consent to sexual activity, and likely to do so after seeing their mothers, sisters and brothers cold-bloodedly murdered, then they were raped, probably repeatedly over long periods.

How are you going to tell me that these are loving actions?

[John317]

Quote:

Bravus: ....If I wasn't flawed, I'd be able to understand how murder, rape and slavery are evidence of love.

OK, one more. lol

Could you show some specific examples of what you mean by murder, rape, and slavery?

Do you see a difference between killing and murder? (I know there's a lot of these things in the Bible but I'm wondering how you are relating them to God.)

Is all killing murder, in your view?

One more important question: what is the source or ground of morality in the universe?

Now, for real

[LifeHiscost]

What then? Is there any answer-- any resolution-- at all?

I would say yes!

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."Ephesians 6:12 NKJV

"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." John 8:44 NKJV

"He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more...

Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet.

Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire."Rev 20:2,3,10,14 NKJV

[Bravus]

See above, John317, for the Numbers 31 example. In that case, unarmed prisoners, all women and children (the men had been killed in battle) were slaughtered in cold blood. Deaths in battle are killing, that is murder. Similarly with the rape, I laid it out in detail above.

The question about the ground of morality or ethics is flawed: these are not the kinds of things that have or require foundations. If they were, God would be a pretty flawed foundation, at least as He is portrayed in Scripture.

Ethics arise, as Socrates said, from the examined life. From philosophy, thought, discussion, rigorous thinking, the willingness to put aside our own selfish interests for the common good, the social contract. It might be worth your while to listen to this short interview (about 13 min) with the (Christian) director of the St James Ethics Centre in Sydney: http://www.bravus.com/LateNightLive%20-%20Ethics.mp3

[John317]

Quote:

LifeHiscost: Thank you much for that post, John317. I am not a favorite fan of insisting that one can only find truth when it is included within the context of it's original revelation, but your post clearly reveals a benefit that, it would seem, one would never receive any other way.

Thanks back to ya.

[LifeHiscost]

I think another thing we need to remember is that despite all the bad in life, I'm glad to be alive and to have the chance to BE. My daughter's little boy just died and was buried a few days ago. I'm glad we had him for a short time, and I know my daugheter is happy, too. I know Samuel was happy to be given a chance to live. He learned about Jesus and enjoyed his very brief life. I believe Christ will resurrect him and that he will grown up in heaven. We are sad now about his passing, but when we get to heaven, and we meet him again, we probably won't give our suffering here now much thought at all. We will praise God for giving us all life and saving us. We will do that for eternity, despite the evil that we saw here.

Your thoughts?

Amen!!

One life saved for eternity with the God Who is Love, is more than any loss our few years of misunderstanding and pain here sustain.

Joy!!

[karl]

When God was about to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham asked God if He would destroy the cities if there were 50 righteous people in them.5 God said no. Then Abraham asked the same question if there were 45 righteous people. Every time he dropped the number and got the same answer. The fact is that God would not have destroyed those cities if there were any righteous people in them. The few righteous who were in those cities He warned ahead of time to get out. Did He warn everyone of the coming judgment? We are not told.

God's judgment of people groups found in the Old Testament completely pales in comparison to the judgment He will render at the end of time. According to the New Testament Book of Revelation, God will judge and kill billions of people who reject Him when Jesus returns.

What about God ordering the deaths of OT children? How do we know that God, in killing babies, is not preventing an upbringing which would result in eternal death? Perhaps He is actually setting the stage to give these babies eternal life.

There is so much we don't know about the OT stories it behooves us to look at them through the lens of the life of Christ.

[karl]

God orders the battle, and God orders the divvying up of the spoils, including the young virgins. And, again, unless you believe that those young virgin girls were capable of giving informed consent to sexual activity, and likely to do so after seeing their mothers, sisters and brothers cold-bloodedly murdered, then they were raped, probably repeatedly over long periods.

Your assumption of rape here is pure supposition. You are, quite literally, making this up and then embellishing on your suppostition to claim that it happened repeatedly over long periods.

Makes me wonder about intent, Bravus.

I believe it is calumny to include this kind of thing in your diatribe against God. Since you can make your point without it, why do this?

[LifeHiscost]

There is so much we don't know about the OT stories it behooves us to look at them through the lens of the life of Christ.

Jesus is explanation enough for me to put my full confidence in our Father, and I don't need full knowledge to know He cares for me, and all who frequent this forum.

Blessings!

[Bravus]

I'm sure the continuous rape of the virgins and murder of the adult women led to eternal life... oh wait, it didn't.

Guys, you need to be able to engage with this stuff in some real way. You're either avoiding the hard parts or trying to submerge them in some broader story without really dealing with them.

Let me question you back. Are the events in Numbers 31 moral?

[John317]

Quote:

Bravus:

Let me question you back. Are the events in Numbers 31 moral?

If you're asking whether those events are morally just, I believe they would be immoral and wrong if I took it upon myself (or if any human took it upon themselves) to do those things.

But then God can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the lawgiver. He makes and executes his laws.

God is not, as humanity is, limited by either moral laws or physical laws. He would have been just if He had allowed the entire world to reap the natural consequences of sin and rebellion. He didn't have to come here or save anyone. All humanity deserved to die because we rebelled against the Creator and His government. Humanity chose Satan as its leader. He could have allowed us to have our choice and die with Satan and all the fallen angels who rebelled with him.

All moral law comes from God, just as all life comes from Him. "Morality"-- the idea of right and wrong-- wouldn't even exist apart from Him. He's the One decides and judges what is right. He doesn't do something because he looks in a book or into a law and decides He needs to do such-and-such in order to fulfill the law. We do. We look into the constitution or into the state or Federal laws in order to make sure we're conforming our lives to the law. If we aren't, we can pay a heavy price. God needs no such book or law. God is law; it is a written expression of God's character. Everything he does is moral and right. Why? Because His word has creative power so that when he speaks, it is done. He spoke the world into existence. That's impossible for us to even grasp. God doesn't do something because it is right. God does something and therefore it is right. It is right because God does it. Created beings-- humans-- aren't like that.

Do you believe we can know anything about God apart from Scripture? If God didn't reveal Himself to us in the Bible, could we come to know Him by any other means?

Talk later in the morning-- about 6 hours from now, God willing.

[abelisle]

"Do you believe we can know anything about God apart from Scripture? If God didn't reveal Himself to us in the Bible, could we come to know Him by any other means?"

John317

Read the first few paragraphs in Steps to Christ. Nature mysticism has been around for a l-o-n-g time!

Alex

[karl]

I'm sure the continuous rape of the virgins and murder of the adult women led to eternal life... oh wait, it didn't.

Where does the Bible mention the rape of these virgins, Bravus? This is something you have fantasized.

If agnosticism is so morally superior, how is it that rape, and not just rape but continuous rape over a long period of time, is what you think of when you think of a captive virgin being turned over to an Israelite? This never entered my mind until you and Rich insisted upon it.

How about giving the virgin a home?

How about providing the virgin a safe haven from a hostile and fairly barbaric world? That's what I would want to do and I believe that's what Christ would urge.

How about we look at it that way for a change?

Are we wanting to lift up Christ on this thread or are we looking for and even making up things to besmirch God's reputation with?

[Neil D]

You're essentially restating my position, though, Neil, if you concede that some parts of the Bible are less inspired than others. I look forward to your response once you wake up

[Dr. Rich]

Understanding the whole plan of restoration will give one a view of how God works. All of the 'nations' that God told Moses (Israel) to eliminate were completely wicked and they had their own gods ("the giants of the land"). Satan had complete control over them as he had over all of the people before Adam and Eve. (Yes, you heard right) Satan's nations had to be destroyed before Israel could establish righteousness to the whole world--and God's command to them to destroy them was in His plan of restoration.

[Lutz13]

Please note, "Take vengeance on the Midianites"...The question is what did God mean by 'vengeance'...Would I be a bit obtuse in saying that God didn't mean killing and rapeing ect. Couldn't "vengence" also be interpreted as doing kindness? In proverbs, if you do kindness to your enemy, it is as if you poured out hot coals upon his head...Is that not the vengence that God would want? Instead, Moses took the meaning differently and instigated the killing/rapeing...He interpreted God's word according to his own customs and not God's.

It sounded good, but then I wondered...God can see well into the future, wouldn't He explain it a bit clearer to Moses? Or is the Hebrew language too small to say "Hey go be really nice to these people!"

I have been reading through the OT books to try and get a better understanding of how God deals with His people. I see a lot of grace and mercy in a lot of the books, but Numbers I do not know how to reconcile. The picture I got was an abusive parent.

What I didn't understand was when God freaked out and started killing the Israelites and Moses had to pray for Him to stop.

I have known people like that. Their child is crying so they just smack them.

Curious to see how you guys accept it.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

I'm sure the continuous rape of the virgins and murder of the adult women led to eternal life... oh wait, it didn't.

How about giving the virgin a home?

How about providing the virgin a safe haven from a hostile and fairly barbaric world? That's what I would want to do and I believe that's what Christ would urge.

How about we look at it that way for a change?

This is incredible. It's hard to see how someone would feel safe and thankful after watching someone kill their family and then forced to marry this same killer.

ARE YOU COMPLETELY DEVOID OF EMPATHY!!!!!!!

This illustrates the problem with authoritarian belief systems. The reason we have these types of belief systems is because leaders needed to motivate large numbers of people to kill.

You basically established yourself as the only person who had access to what god wanted, made a chain of command, indoctrinated the young, and demonized/dehumanized the enemy. This essentially disables normal human moral outrage and empathy. Today we do that by establishing an authority over who can interpret the Bible and thus we have about 40,000 different versions of Christian belief all claiming to know exactly what god wants.

This is the reason that Adventists are vulnerable to certain types of cults like the Branch Davidians and The Lord our Righteousness Church led by Wayne Bent or Michael Travessor as he likes to be called.

All you have to do is transfer their trust to the next prophet. If it falls in line with what they believe has been predicted and you provide a few so called miracles you gain a following that will do whatever you want no matter how unethical or unreasonable. You can read the comments section of my blog on this and you can see Esther, a devout follower of Wayne Bent, justify suicide and adultery.

Your god has no accountability and is able to do anything without being questioned. That is a dangerous belief.

[Dr. Rich]

Try reading Deuteronomy 28. God is the same as "justice".

[karl]

Your god has no accountability and is able to do anything without being questioned. That is a dangerous belief.

I consider it FAR more dangerous for humans to have no accountability to God than for God to have no accountability to humans.