The most abusive Christian phrase ...

[Neil D]

But God meets us where we are at. Don't you think He can read the heart and know that we may be off a bit? Wouldn't He then use another word?

[Aliensanctuary]

From our perspective, human life is extremely important. From an alien perspective, such as the LORD's, perhaps we are merely ignorant, disobedient slaves, or dumb cattle.

Even if a nation, including women and children, was destroyed to make room for Israel, those who were killed will still have a chance, after resurrection, to make a final choice. If they, and anyone else, reject the 3 Angel's messages of truth about the Kingdom of God during that time period, they at least had a fair chance. Whether they previously lived a short, unhappy life or a long, pleasant one, is irrelevant.

To build a perfect universe, selfishness and rebellion must be eliminated. To achieve this, our self-centered human natures must be, in effect, neutered, by consent. Only rebels will choose the oblivion of eternal death thinking they are strong enough in numbers to overcome the power of the LORD.

[Neil D]

Leave aside Numbers 31, if you want to spin completely countertextual fantasies about how they would take these virgins 'for yourselves' (NOT 'for their sake') and then show them a nice nonsexual time. There are plenty of other OT examples of the Israelites being told to take wives by force from surrounding tribes. Under any sensible definition of consent, that's God-ordered rape.

The relevant moral standards, by the way, are not those of the surrounding tribes, or of the Israelites as they were at the time, but of the Ten Commandments and of Jesus' revision and extension of the Commandments in Matthew 5. The decisions (purportedly) were not being made by iron age humans, but by Almighty God, and he must be held up to at least his own moral standards.

I am not sure that I am hearing this correctly...Are you saying that we need to apply todays standards and todays understanding of scripture to yesterday cultural problems?

Remember when Christanity came to polynesian women. The women were topless...The ministers insisted that all women were to have have thier breasts covered, and therefore the women were to wear shirts. Ironically, in the polynesian culture, the only women who were able to afford shirts were prosititues, and any woman who wore a shirt was considerede a prostitute.

Biblical cuture is not the same as today's western culture. We make the great assumption that it is so, because we are the most like that culture...Fact is, we are no where near that culture...

That is like saying all the polynesian women, who went around topless before their salvation, must cover thier breasts with some sort of shirt. Even if the culture says that women with shirts are prostitutes, the Christian culture impossed upon all polynesian women the necessity of covering thier breasts...

And yes, there are instances of women being forced to be wives of men...but to exclude extenuating circumstances of culture is to be disingenuous to the situation..

[Bravus]

No, not today's standards, not at all. Jesus' standards: and they're extremely straightforward, not much interpretation required:

Quote:

21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

That's *lightyears* from the cold-blooded murder of unarmed women and children.

[Bravus]

(aliensanctuary, it's worth noting that your belief that the unsaved dead will have an opportunity to be saved at the resurrection is *not* mainstream SDA theology. Under the latter, they are pretty much resurrected specifically to be killed again)

[cardw]

Quote:

Rich, that is your interpretation of scriptures. It looks to be superficial interpretation...It is also a literal interpretation, one that justifys people like David Koresh to take up arms against innocents. I'm not saying that you do, just that it is the same logic....but that logic is flawed in that it is superficial.

You are skirting the issue. You keep saying that it's superficial, but you don't provide any reasonable alternative. I have brought a reasonable alternative. It's made up by iron age men.

Quote:

The point here is that if the bible is written for a concrete thinking person, with a different culture, then our culture and our current abstract thinking may mistakenly arrive at conculsions that are not supported in the bible. In your case, you say that the OT God is a god of evil. But the NT bible says no, that is not so. We saw Him revealed in the NT, and THE I AM has always been this way. Now, it's up to us to find a way to make the OT a true statement...

You know if we haven't found an answer to this by now, I don't think one is coming. I would say that god has a lousy editor and there is no clear reason to conclude that an all knowing god would choose to describe himself in such a poor manner. It is far more reasonable to see the Bible as simply an iron age ethical system mixed with some Greek Philosophy, a Jewish mystic, enforced by a Roman empire, and passed down to us by a very violent and ignorant priesthood.

That becomes pretty evident when you read the history. And we have more and more information on this as we are discovering and translating all the multitude of alternative gospels. Basically the violent victors put the Bible together and told everybody else what to believe.

[LifeHiscost]

If God made a mistake ... He could always repent:

“And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.” -Exodus 32:14

" God is not a man, that He should lie,Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Numbers 23:19 NASB

A translation more consistent with the Truth in other parts of the Holy Bible.

So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Exodus 32:14 NASB

See the story of Ninevah, its' salvation based upon God changing His mind because they repented of the evil they had been doing.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

I still have respect for the teachings of Jesus, but I have no respect for anyone claiming to follow these teachings supporting a god who would order these types of things done. They don't seem compatible at all.

It would seem you are either ignorant of certain words of Jesus, or you do not believe what He said. If you cannot believe what He said you must believe He also is an immoral liar.

"Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"John 14:9 NKJV

"Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.

Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." 1 Corinthians 10:1-12 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

You believe in a similar morality that many Adventist believe, ie the 10 Commandments...

I'm sure you didn't expect perfect agreement in all the points of your post. So as a Seventh Day Adventist I thought it good to comment on the above.

1st command. Worship no other gods. Done away with. It's now OK to worship whatever gods one can find.

2nd command. Don't bow down or worship idols. Done away with.

It's now OK to worship whatever idol I wish.

3rd command. Don't use His name uselessly. Done away with.

It's now OK to use His name in whatever crass or corrupt way we wish.

4th command. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. Done away with. Keep any day or no day in whatever way we choose. Especially good for employers who wish to make more of the hired help. And good for destroying the one command that identifies why we need to remember Him, the One Who made it.

5th command. Honor your father and mother. Done away with.

Especially good for when we reach that age so we won't be a burden to our children.

6th command. Don't murder. Done away with. Now it's OK if the circumstance warrants it. Makes one feel safe and secure.

7th command. Don't commit adultery. Done away with. Good for dysfunctional homes so our psyche isn't warped by being deprived when our partner is out of sorts.

8th command. Don't steal. Done away with. Good especially for redistribution of wealth so my family doesn't suffer want.

9th command. Don't bear false witness against your neighbor. Done away with. Good for avoiding guilty feelings for doing something that is easier to pass off on to the next door neighbors.

10th command. Don't covet what is your neighbors. Done away with. Especially helpful when you wish to forget the 8th command.

Regards!

[Bravus]

WHAT?!! YOU'RE the one defending murder here!

[Lutz13]

Are you sure about that last bit? Are you sure that "God really really wanted to keep them from the outside nations who sacrified children to idols and did other things like having sex with animals" ? That may be TWO aspects of a larger principle....like reflecting HIS character....Are you sure you are not inserting your bias against such things into the OT culture?

What? I'm inserting my bias because God didn't want them doing the acts of other nations? This is clearly in scripture...

"When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, be very careful not to imitate the detestable customs of the nations living there. For example, never sacrifice your son or daughter as a burnt offering. And do not let your people practice fortune-telling, or use sorcery, or interpret omens, or engage in witchcraft, or cast spells, or function as mediums or psychics or call forth the spirits of the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord. It is because the other nations have done these detestable things that the Lord your God will drive them out ahead of you..." Deuteronomy 18:9-13.

I'm not sure where I am being biased...It clearly shows that God didn't want them mingling with the other nations. Everytime they did, they suffered His wrath(He withdrew and let them reap what they had sown.)

As far as them taking the virgins. Deuteronomy gives instructions on marrying captive women. I would suggest reading Deuteronomy 21:10-14. Yes the times were harsh, but it seems God gave them what light they were ready for. Just like Jesus said He couldn't reveal all to His disciples. They weren't ready for it all. So I am thinking God had to speak their language until He could gain their trust. Throughout the years more and more light was given until Jesus came who was the great light.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

You believe in a similar morality that many Adventist believe, ie the 10 Commandments...

I'm sure you didn't expect perfect agreement in all the points of your post. So as a Seventh Day Adventist I thought it good to comment on the above.

Um, "Perfect agreement"??? Excuse me as I ponder your musing Life.

Based upon my conversations with Rich, I know him to be a former SDA who has reasoned out and away from SDA doctrine. It is pretty evident from his posts that he does not have no morals. [iOWs, he's a moral kinda guy!] And his morals do reflect some SDA upbringing.

Where I am confused [which isn't hard to do] is why the reinteration of what most conservative SDAs think? IOWs, why the public interpretation of a corporate interpretation posted on a thread that is clearly on an individual level?

[sigh] Oh well...

1st command. Worship no other gods. Done away with. It's now OK to worship whatever gods one can find.

2nd command. Don't bow down or worship idols. Done away with.

It's now OK to worship whatever idol I wish.

3rd command. Don't use His name uselessly. Done away with.

It's now OK to use His name in whatever crass or corrupt way we wish.

4th command. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. Done away with. Keep any day or no day in whatever way we choose. Especially good for employers who wish to make more of the hired help. And good for destroying the one command that identifies why we need to remember Him, the One Who made it.

5th command. Honor your father and mother. Done away with.

Especially good for when we reach that age so we won't be a burden to our children.

6th command. Don't murder. Done away with. Now it's OK if the circumstance warrants it. Makes one feel safe and secure.

7th command. Don't commit adultery. Done away with. Good for dysfunctional homes so our psyche isn't warped by being deprived when our partner is out of sorts.

8th command. Don't steal. Done away with. Good especially for redistribution of wealth so my family doesn't suffer want.

9th command. Don't bear false witness against your neighbor. Done away with. Good for avoiding guilty feelings for doing something that is easier to pass off on to the next door neighbors.

10th command. Don't covet what is your neighbors. Done away with. Especially helpful when you wish to forget the 8th command.

Regards!

[karl]

I find no better behavior among those who claim to be accountable to god than those that don't. In fact it can be demonstrated that those who don't actually are better citizens as a whole than those who claim accountability to god.

Your assertion is completely counter to Scripture and to history. There have been more people murdered in the name of atheism in the last 100 years than all recorded murders from all causes in the entire history of the earth prior to that.

China under Mao Tse Tung, 26.3 million Chinese. According the Walker Report, 63.7 million over the whole period of time of the Communist revolution in China. Solzhenitsyn says the Soviet Union put to death 66.7 million people. Kampuchea destroyed one third of their entire population of eight million Cambodians. The Chinese at two different times in medieval history, somewhere in the vicinity of 35 million and 40 million people. Ladies and gentlemen, make note that these deaths were the result of organizations or points of view or ideologies that had left God out of the equation. None of these involve religion. And all but the very last actually assert atheism.

[Neil D]

Are you sure about that last bit? Are you sure that "God really really wanted to keep them from the outside nations who sacrified children to idols and did other things like having sex with animals" ? That may be TWO aspects of a larger principle....like reflecting HIS character....Are you sure you are not inserting your bias against such things into the OT culture?

[Neil D]

Quote:

The point here is that if the bible is written for a concrete thinking person, with a different culture, then our culture and our current abstract thinking may mistakenly arrive at conculsions that are not supported in the bible. In your case, you say that the OT God is a god of evil. But the NT bible says no, that is not so. We saw Him revealed in the NT, and THE I AM has always been this way. Now, it's up to us to find a way to make the OT a true statement...

You know if we haven't found an answer to this by now, I don't think one is coming. I would say that god has a lousy editor and there is no clear reason to conclude that an all knowing god would choose to describe himself in such a poor manner. It is far more reasonable to see the Bible as simply an iron age ethical system mixed with some Greek Philosophy, a Jewish mystic, enforced by a Roman empire, and passed down to us by a very violent and ignorant priesthood.

That becomes pretty evident when you read the history. And we have more and more information on this as we are discovering and translating all the multitude of alternative gospels. Basically the violent victors put the Bible together and told everybody else what to believe.

I am a great believer that life is far more complex than what we have labeled it. What the bible is trying to show, you dismiss entirely, which is a rather sad commentary. You support a very anti-thetical position and over simplistic theorys that appear to have no basis in the bible. You tout your ethical system as being superior to the bible...Which bring me to the question...why are you here for this length of time, Rich? You've been here for what, 2 years? and are still trying to find answers to your delema?

I would suggest that there is more to your questions than you let on...

[Lutz13]

And I am not sure that the occult was the same as "sex with animals"...that was a sticking point with me...It shows a bias against sex with animals...not that it was bad, because it is definately not good. But the reference is more on sex than the occult...something which showed bias...against what bias, I am not sure...

Niel, I am sooo confused! I brought up "sex with animals" because of: "A man must not defile himself by having sex with an animal. And a woman must not offer herself to a male animal to have intercourse with it. This is a perverse act. Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, for the people I am driving out before you have defiled themselves in all these ways." -- Leviticus 18:23-24

Perhaps I am not being very clear. I stated that I was trying to reconcile the book of Numbers. It is a hard book to swallow.

One of the major points to reconciling the book for me was that God was going to great lengths to keep Israel from mingling with the other nations because of the acts that they perform. Such as sacrificing their children to idols, and having sex with animals... I only stated those two things because those happened to be the only ones I could remember reading about at the time. There was actually a huge list that I posted in my previous post.

Does that clear it up a bit?

I agree with you 100% on the culture part. The Israelites were still entrenched in Egyptian culture. They wanted a mean tough and powerful God and God gave it to them on Sinai. God met them where they were.

[Lutz13]

But whose commanding this? This is in the 3rd person, ie Moses gave this information rather than God Himself...Since Moses was trained in the courts of the Egyptians, the system of justice may have also cultural influences....We are not sure just how much influence this and other cultures were brought to bear in proclaiming this more...And, remember, this is more favorable than immediately taking her as wife as we are told about other cultures of the time...And I would like to suggest that her beauty might change in ones sight once her head was shaved...

Exactly! That was meant more for those who insisted that those men raped those virgins. I wasn't very clear on that and attached it to that other post.

[LifeHiscost]

they are pretty much resurrected specifically to be killed again)

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."

Matthew 22:29 KJV

The resurrection of the wicked is a deliberate choice of God to allow all the unfallen beings to see, not only that if the wicked were given ten billion years, they would still war against their Creator, but also it is a compassionate act on our Father's part that the wicked themselves will recognize that under God's determination they will not have to live in the misery and dissatisfaction of their own wicked natures, developed by their own choices, for the remainder of eternity.

"...who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. "Philippians 2:6-11 NASB Emphasis theirs LHC

"Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them." Revelation 20:7-9 NKJV

"Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’"

Ezekiel 33:11 NKJV

Regards!!

[LifeHiscost]

China under Mao Tse Tung, 26.3 million Chinese. According the Walker Report, 63.7 million over the whole period of time of the Communist revolution in China. Solzhenitsyn says the Soviet Union put to death 66.7 million people. Kampuchea destroyed one third of their entire population of eight million Cambodians. The Chinese at two different times in medieval history, somewhere in the vicinity of 35 million and 40 million people. Ladies and gentlemen, make note that these deaths were the result of organizations or points of view or ideologies that had left God out of the equation. None of these involve religion. And all but the very last actually assert atheism.

And this is the world we would continue to exist in were we able to live on in a universe devoid of Almighty God, the everlasting Father, the prince of Peace.

Here is my choice of the One Creator there is and Whom I wish to serve, by His grace, and the place He has prepared for me, which place I expect to take occupancy shortly.

"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."Isaiah 9:6 NKJV

"In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.John 14:2-4 NKJV

"And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”"Revelation 21:4 NKJV

JOY!!

[LifeHiscost]

I agree with you 100% on the culture part. The Israelites were still entrenched in Egyptian culture. They wanted a mean tough and powerful God and God gave it to them on Sinai. God met them where they were.

That's more or less the way I see it, but you did it much better than I would have. That's where the gift of patience rules supreme.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You know if we haven't found an answer to this by now, I don't think one is coming. I would say that god has a lousy editor and there is no clear reason to conclude that an all knowing god would choose to describe himself in such a poor manner. It is far more reasonable to see the Bible as simply an iron age ethical system mixed with some Greek Philosophy, a Jewish mystic, enforced by a Roman empire, and passed down to us by a very violent and ignorant priesthood.

That becomes pretty evident when you read the history. And we have more and more information on this as we are discovering and translating all the multitude of alternative gospels. Basically the violent victors put the Bible together and told everybody else what to believe.

I am a great believer that life is far more complex than what we have labeled it. What the bible is trying to show, you dismiss entirely, which is a rather sad commentary. You support a very anti-thetical position and over simplistic theorys that appear to have no basis in the bible.

[Neil D]

I haven't been sharing things that are simplistic. I have actually outlined a very complex evolutionary religious progression that has far more evidence. All you keep presenting are triumphal announcements with no evidence.

I am getting the "simplistic" interpretations of the bible from Christians who apply these scriptures in these same ways.

[cardw]

Quote:

First off, I have never turned off my empathy, nor have you shaken my confidence in the scriptures.

I never said you did. You are making this personal.

Quote:

Second, the concept that "someone" out there in cyberland is looking in on these discussions, serves as a ego trip for those who post here hoping that "someone" out there will read this....Face it squarely, Rich, you are hoping to make disciples to your philosophy, just as much as others here are hoping to make disciples as they understand scriptures. That in itself is a rather fatally flawed egotistical hope, IMHO. You are no different than other christians....

First of all I'm not a Christian. And second I wasn't talking about random people reading this exchange.

You still are simply making claims and you are making this personal rather than presenting the facts.

[Bravus]

You realise, Neil, that this idea of 'reading the Bible in the light of the cultures that wrote it (or 'in which it was written')' is considered deeply heretical by most conservative/literalist Christians? Particularly when it comes to looking at things like creation and homosexuality. In those instances it's all about the plain meaning of the plain (English) text.

Seems to me people can't have it both ways: either Genesis 1 and 2 mean exactly, literally what they say, and then Numbers 31 does too, or, if we can reinterpret Numbers 31 in the light of the culture we must do the same thing with Genesis, and with the various abominations of homosexuality, and so on.

Just looking for something clear, concrete, fair and open in terms of approach. God is represented as a God of order and reason, and specifically not a God of confusion.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I find no better behavior among those who claim to be accountable to god than those that don't. In fact it can be demonstrated that those who don't actually are better citizens as a whole than those who claim accountability to god.

Your assertion is completely counter to Scripture and to history. There have been more people murdered in the name of atheism in the last 100 years than all recorded murders from all causes in the entire history of the earth prior to that.

China under Mao Tse Tung, 26.3 million Chinese. According the Walker Report, 63.7 million over the whole period of time of the Communist revolution in China. Solzhenitsyn says the Soviet Union put to death 66.7 million people. Kampuchea destroyed one third of their entire population of eight million Cambodians. The Chinese at two different times in medieval history, somewhere in the vicinity of 35 million and 40 million people. Ladies and gentlemen, make note that these deaths were the result of organizations or points of view or ideologies that had left God out of the equation. None of these involve religion. And all but the very last actually assert atheism.

You are mixing up atheism with totalitarianism being expressed through Chinese Communism and Marxism. Atheism has no systems of belief or principles. The only thing that all atheists have in common is an agreement that there are no gods.

Mao Tse Tung has more in common with Moses, King David, Samuel, Elisha, and King Josiah who ran totalitarian governments. The Theocracy in the Bible is a totalitarian government. Obviously belief in the bible didn't stop anybody from killing a whole bunch of people either.

That's the problem with the Bible. You can't derive democracy from the Bible because the only two systems described there are Communism and Totalitarianism.

When we look at nations today that tend to have the most non believers we find the quality of life to be much higher. There is less crime, better standard of living, they tend to be more generous, and more educated.