The most abusive Christian phrase ...

[Bravus]

Take out the line 'it's people like you I can't stand' - 'cos I kinda like all y'all - and this old song from The Proclaimers about sums up how I feel about this discussion. With respect, karl, it's not up to you to read the thread and judge whether I've supported atheism or not...

The Light (click on the title to hear the song)

You make it sound easy

You say just hold your hand out don't you

You just hold your hand out don't you

That hope never leaves you

'Cos a light shines on that helps you to steer

Makes everything clear

Well it might in your world

But it doesn't in mine

I've been stumbling in the dark for years

And the light just made me blind

You say it lights every pathway

Shows me how to live life

For the rest of my days

For the rest of my days

But I can't put my faith in

Your words and demands

I believe in God alright

It's folk like you I just can't stand

You don't have to try and scare me

To reinforce my faith sir

'Cos I know that one day

I'll stand before my maker

And if I'm found wanting

When my case is heard

It'll be by the author

Not some interpreter of his words

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

When we look at nations today that tend to have the most non believers we find the quality of life to be much higher. There is less crime, better standard of living, they tend to be more generous, and more educated.

I'm wondering where you have found so protected a place that the

world turmoil has escaped your notice. There is, of course, a biblical precedent.

"Now the mixed multitude who were among them yielded to intense craving; so the children of Israel also wept again and said: “Who will give us meat to eat? We remember the fish which we ate freely in Egypt, the cucumbers, the melons, the leeks, the onions, and the garlic; but now our whole being is dried up; there is nothing at all except this manna before our eyes!” "Numbers 11:4-6 NKJV

Regards!!

It's kind of strange how you do this free association with the Bible and then present it as fact.

[cardw]

Quote:

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (New International Version) Marrying a Captive Woman

"When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her."

I think you need to note that a man could sleep with her without her consent and dishonor her, but still, on his choice, could let her go. Go where?

[cardw]

Quote:

I think a lot has been overlooked by Rich in the development of his thinking on the ideas of religion in the US Founders. The Founders were were not anti-God.

Didn't say they were. What your quotes do provide is the reason why Jefferson, the main writer of the early documents that provided the foundation of our American experiment, was so anti-religion.

[LifeHiscost]

Hmm, we've had a recent account here on this forum of one who came to a church and almost got punched out by a deacon...

Interesting to note that the deacon has no opportunity for rebuttal And I'm to believe the party who was about to be punched was behaving like an innocent child and the deacon ready to throw the punch just walked up to him with nothing better to do than throw a punch for exercise.

Regards!!

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Hmm, we've had a recent account here on this forum of one who came to a church and almost got punched out by a deacon...

Interesting to note that the deacon has no opportunity for rebuttal And I'm to believe the party who was about to be punched was behaving like an innocent child and the deacon ready to throw the punch just walked up to him with nothing better to do than throw a punch for exercise.

Regards!!

Punch and cookies between services. Martial arts church.

[John317]

Quote:

John3:17: Do you believe we can know anything about God apart from Scripture? If God didn't reveal Himself to us in the Bible, could we come to know Him by any other means?

Quote:

abelisle: Read the first few paragraphs in Steps to Christ. Nature mysticism has been around for a l-o-n-g time!

Yes, I know the book well. But you'll notice that she doesn't say we can learn the truth about God by looking at nature alone. We need God's guide book. As we study the world religions and the primitive cultures, we notice people have arrived at all kinds of wrong concepts of God on the basis of what they believe they learn from nature. The basic problem with nature is that it is fallen and perverted by sin, and man's entire nature and mind are also fallen. There is lots of killing going on in nature. Without the Bible, then, you would draw the wrong conclusions concerning nature and concerning nature's God. In fact, you might even conclude that nature and God are one and the same. For instance, millions have concluded from nature that God is pleased with human sacrifices and with all sorts of other evil things. There is good reason, therefore, to believe that nature per se is not a reliable guide to understanding God.

My point is that we need special revelation. Apart from it we would have no certain knowledge of God. Logic or even worldly knowledge won't bring you understanding of God, certainly nothing about a God who loves you enough to give you the hope in the gospel. Through nature alone, no one would have any understanding of the creation of the world by a personal God who answers the prayers of those who put their faith in him. The only way, then, that we can really know Him and know His plans for this world and for us is through the Bible.

Your thoughts?

[John317]

Have you ever compared the books of Moses with the Code of Hammurabi? Which laws would you rather under-- the Torah or the Code of Hammurabi?

What God was doing was leading people slowly along to the right ways. God doesn't come to you and tell you that you have to stop doing everything you're doing and eat differently than you're used to. He doesn't come and uproot your whole life. He works with us at the level where we are, just as a good parent does with small children.

In the case of Israel, they came out of Egypt and didn't have any knowledge of God. They were used to slavery and brutality. That's what they expected. What you seem to expect is that God would come to them and force upon them things and ideas they wouldn't have had the slightest understanding of. Our God isn't like that. He respects our individuality and our freedom. He respects our choices and takes them seriously.

[LifeHiscost]

God was referred to in the constitutions and legal documents of the colonies and later the thirteen states as: "One God" in South Carolina and Connecticut; "Almighty" in North Carolina, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Vermont; in Massachusetts, He was called, the "Supreme Being", the "Creator", "Good", and the "Great Legislator of the Universe"; He was called the "Governor of the Universe" in Pennsylvania, and Vermont; and the "Inspirer of the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments" in South Carolina and Pennsylvania. "His Divine Providence" was recognized in New York, Connecticut and Massachusetts. In Connecticut he was called "Savior and Lord".

The truthful reiteration of actual history, Karl, almost makes me believe you are older than cardw, who espouses history as it has been rewritten for our educational system in the United States.

What is being declared as the "truth" about the influence of Christianity on our early history, reminds me of a comment attributed to General Dwight D Eisenhower upon entering the nazi death camps at the end of WW2, and I quote the best I can recall.

"Better get as many photographers in here as possible to take pictures because there is no doubt in 15 or 20 years some B(deleted expletive)d will say this never happened."

Which by the way was a prophetic statement long since found to be true.

Blessings!

[Bravus]

(my story about the deacon was not intended as a slander of him, or of deacons generally - it was intended as a counter to the facile notion that someone could automatically expect better treatment from a group of Christians than from a group of atheists. I know lots of both, and they're all just people when it comes to how they treat people: some good, some bad. To believe anything else flies in the face of all the evidence. Wish it was different)

[John317]

Yes, the truth is that virtually all of our Founding Fathers read and knew the Bible. They didn't believe all of it, but they respected the morals that it taught, particularly as found in the moral law and in the Sermon On the Mount.

The United States at that time was the most literate nation on earth. A Republic depends on a literate citizenry. Without it, it couldn't endure for long.

Thanks for that list. Good reminder. What a great country we have, and may God keep us free.

[Bravus]

(um, not all of us posting here share that country: the discussion is appreciated, but it's kind of irrelevant to some of us. Particularly once the premise that started it - that the Christian US is the world's great benefactor - was conclusively shown to be counterfactual)

[LifeHiscost]

Somehow I'm beginning to believe the forum has been infiltrated by the ACLU. Shades of Madeline Murray O'hare.

[John317]

I'm talking from personal experience, not about a generalization or an abstraction. I was once on the road and needed help. A Christian on the way to an evening church service picked me up and when I told him about myself, he took me to his church where the people welcomed me with open arms and gave me everything I needed including their money.

Here in the US, all the communists are atheists. As you know, I used to be in one of their organizations. If someone had done the same thing in our meetings as I did at the church, do you think those people would have done what the people at that little church did? Not on your life. (I'm talking about people who were friends of mine, by the way, so I'm not putting them down; I'm just telling it like I see it.)

How many communist organizations in the US have a mission for the poor or the homeless? Churches have hundreds. I know because I've been in some of them. I never saw one run by communists and atheists.

[LifeHiscost]

It's kind of strange how you do this free association with the Bible and then present it as fact.

Presenting the Word as fact seems more logical than the posits of those who disbelieve the Word.

[LifeHiscost]

Punch and cookies between services. Martial arts church.

[John317]

It's OK if not everyone here is from the US. Anyone is free to say what they want about their country, including Americans. O Mexicanos--- Viva Mexico! :-)

[LifeHiscost]

(my story about the deacon was not intended as a slander of him, or of deacons generally - it was intended as a counter to the facile notion that someone could automatically expect better treatment from a group of Christians than from a group of atheists. I know lots of both, and they're all just people when it comes to how they treat people: some good, some bad. To believe anything else flies in the face of all the evidence. Wish it was different)

Good post. I tend to agree with one caveat. We often receive what we expect to get.

I have a friend who is the president of a mission in Africa. When I suggested that I had found missionaries to be the most stable people I had the pleasure of being acquainted with, he responded, "I've found people to be about the same whatever part of the globe you're on."

I have yet to meet an avowed follower of Christ lay plans to kill as many of the enemies of the gospel they can.

Regards!

[John317]

Quote:

Bravus: God not only allowed and condoned slavery, he commanded it.

Where does God do this, Bravus? What specific chapter and verse do you refer to?

I probably missed a post but I just came back to it after being gone a day or so.

[LifeHiscost]

How many communist organizations in the US have a mission for the poor or the homeless? Churches have hundreds. I know because I've been in some of them. I never saw one run by communists and atheists.

And most of the ones in service for the Christian organizations are donating their time and effort free gratis.

[karl]

What your quotes do provide is the reason why Jefferson, the main writer of the early documents that provided the foundation of our American experiment, was so anti-religion.

“It [the Bible] is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

[Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson]

“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." [Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” [Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781]

A man doesn't have to go to church to be religious. Jefferson was religious. Specifically, he was a Christian.

[Bravus]

More logical flaws. A huge number of atheists work for and give to charities, but they do it as individuals rather than through atheist organizations. To say there are no atheist charitable organizations is true but very misleading.

[John317]

Quote:

Bravus:Hmm, we've had a recent account here on this forum of one who came to a church and almost got punched out by a deacon... I suspect you'd get a range of responses from either kind of group...

I suppose that for every general rule, there are always exceptions, but the exceptions are never the general rule. I know people who, if you bring up the fact that smoking cigarettes is dangerous to your health, will say their grandmother smoked from the age 12 to 80 without any ill effects.

What I'm saying about the contrast between Christians and others is something I've actually experienced. It's not an abstract idea or something I just thought up, so I know it's true because it's what happened to me. I used to travel all over the US by freight train and hitching rides and walking, etc., and I'd often go the the missions and to churches. I never had any bad experiences and people were always good. I lived on skid row and I can tell you that going to a Christian church was much different than going to a meeting hall of atheists or a bar full of men drinking. No, I'm not saying that all people who claim to be Christians are wonderful or that all atheists are evil people. I'm talking about the motives of people who have the love of Jesus in their hearts vs. people who don't. Are you saying you haven't seen this or noticed it or experienced it?

[cardw]

Quote:

What is being declared as the "truth" about the influence of Christianity on our early history, reminds me of a comment attributed to General Dwight D Eisenhower upon entering the nazi death camps at the end of WW2, and I quote the best I can recall.

"Better get as many photographers in here as possible to take pictures because there is no doubt in 15 or 20 years some B(deleted expletive)d will say this never happened."

And you guys want to rewrite the OT as some god's "loving" plan of violence, rape and murder.

Or what about the Christian death millennium called the middle ages? Too bad we don't have pictures of that wonderful time.

[Bravus]

I've posted the slavery texts from Leviticus twice already and am now posting from my phone which makes searching back pages difficult. Maybe someone else could dig up and repost. It's true that part of the purpose was to mitigate Israelites owning Israelite slaves, but there are instructions about slavery throughout the OT, and they're not all mitigating, by all means. Perhaps I was overzealous in saying God 'commanded' it...