The most abusive Christian phrase ...

[Neil D]

I'm simply repeating what the references I gave you said. If we aren't going to trust what Jefferson says about himself I don't know what to tell you.

Jefferson in clear terms saw himself as a Deist. He saw himself as a Christian only in terms of his respect for the ethical philosophy of Jesus. He rejected his divinity and the theology surrounding his sacrifice for sins. Read what Deism is. That's who you have an argument with, not me.

Well, Rich, I agree with you in that Jefferson saw himself as a Deist. I disagree with you that he didn't see himself as a Christian....He was always learning. Those things that he did believe to be true, he cut out of his bible....But, those things that he did trust, he saw as true and reliable..He experiemented with God and God met him where he was...In that sense, he was a Christian..

[cardw]

Quote:

Nice red-herring theology and rationalized definitions. What you call "redefining" is in fact something else. I stated my understanding about something, and although it was quite brief, it was not "dishonest." You can't prove that no matter how you try to describe it. To me, this fact alone tells a story of unproven ideas.

Huh?

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”

Robert McCloskey

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I'm simply repeating what the references I gave you said. If we aren't going to trust what Jefferson says about himself I don't know what to tell you.

Jefferson in clear terms saw himself as a Deist. He saw himself as a Christian only in terms of his respect for the ethical philosophy of Jesus. He rejected his divinity and the theology surrounding his sacrifice for sins. Read what Deism is. That's who you have an argument with, not me.

Well, Rich, I agree with you in that Jefferson saw himself as a Deist. I disagree with you that he didn't see himself as a Christian....He was always learning. Those things that he did believe to be true, he cut out of his bible....But, those things that he did trust, he saw as true and reliable..He experiemented with God and God met him where he was...In that sense, he was a Christian..

Where did I say he didn't see himself as a Christian?

[Neil D]

Quote:

Apparently, Isreal didn't do what God had said, because they knew that God was going to make them victorious and THEY were to be the terror....As a result, they misunderstood, and did the warfare themselves....

What do you say to that, Rich?

I would say, OK, we killed all the men, I think we're ready for the hornets.

Where is your intellectual honesty here? These texts showed that God was willing to drive out the cannanites with hornets and other natural things and not have the Isrealites go to war...but they didn't want that...they had to have war iwth the cannonites so that they could have a part in taking over the land....It's the ol' "do it myself." philosophy in EVERY religion....

And the context is soon after recieving the 10 Commandments, and before they go to Cannan...God was willing to use non-violent means to give to the Isrealites thier land, but they wanted to do the conquering themselves....

[Neil D]

Where did I say he didn't see himself as a Christian?

Sorry, you claimed that Jefferson was a Diest, and that a Diest was NOT a Christian in that he wasn't following Christ. My point is that because Jefferson is a learning man, his being a Diest does not matter, in that all those principles of Christ, he followed if they made sense to him...

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Where did I say he didn't see himself as a Christian?

Sorry, you claimed that Jefferson was a Diest, and that a Diest was NOT a Christian in that he wasn't following Christ. My point is that because Jefferson is a learning man, his being a Diest does not matter, in that all those principles of Christ, he followed if they made sense to him...

A Deist isn't a Christian in any orthodox sense. Jefferson claimed that he was a True Christian because of Deism. The orthodox establishment didn't see Jefferson as a Christian. And I doubt you would see Jefferson as a Christian.

It's only convenient to claim Jefferson as a Christian so Christians can claim the United States as a Christian nation.

[Neil D]

A Deist isn't a Christian in any orthodox sense. Jefferson claimed that he was a True Christian because of Deism. The orthodox establishment didn't see Jefferson as a Christian. And I doubt you would see Jefferson as a Christian.

It's only convenient to claim Jefferson as a Christian so Christians can claim the United States as a Christian nation.

Sorry, but I disagree with you again....I have already intimated that he was a Christian,...one that was growing, but a Christian nevertheless. And as for the US as a Christian nation, sorry, I don't think so. Too many people came here to practice thier own brand of Christianity, away from the persecution that was practiced on them in Europe. Just because a group of different Christians with different doctrines come to America, doesn't make this country a nation founded on Christianity.

[cardw]

Apparently, Isreal didn't do what God had said, because they knew that God was going to make them victorious and THEY were to be the terror....As a result, they misunderstood, and did the warfare themselves....

What do you say to that, Rich?

Originally Posted By: cardw

I would say, OK, we killed all the men, I think we're ready for the hornets.

Where is your intellectual honesty here? These texts showed that God was willing to drive out the cannanites with hornets and other natural things and not have the Isrealites go to war...but they didn't want that...they had to have war iwth the cannonites so that they could have a part in taking over the land....It's the ol' "do it myself." philosophy in EVERY religion....

And the context is soon after recieving the 10 Commandments, and before they go to Cannan...God was willing to use non-violent means to give to the Isrealites thier land, but they wanted to do the conquering themselves....

I really can't take this argument seriously because here the Israelites are going out to war, but god doesn't say anything here because apparently they forgot somehow. I think god would have saved a lot of suffering if god would have put his foot down while they were marching out to war. But instead he says, "Have fun storming the castle."

It might of helped to have a small demonstration of the hornets. But, no, the god who knows the end from the beginning thinks it's a better idea to slay all the non-combatants and force the virgins to marry their oppressors. Oh yeah, the virgins are given a month to mourn their family, because that makes it all right. And if the men aren't pleased after dishonoring the virgins, they are then free to be homeless, because slavery would really be unfair after that.

It's silly. I can't take this seriously because if I did it would be horrible.

[Neil D]

And again, you don't factor in culture....

[wayfinder]

Judges 2:17 Yet they did not listen to their judges, for they played the harlot after other gods and bowed themselves down to them. They turned aside quickly from the way in which their fathers had walked in obeying the commandments of the LORD ; they did not do as their fathers.

18 When the LORD raised up judges for them, the LORD was with the judge and delivered them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge ; for the LORD was moved to pity by their groaning because of those who oppressed and afflicted them.

19 But it came about when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them and bow down to them; they did not abandon their practices or their stubborn ways.

20 So the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and He said, "Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers and has not listened to My voice,

21 I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died,

22 in order to test Israel by them, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk in it as their fathers did, or not."

23 So the LORD allowed those nations to remain, not driving them out quickly ; and He did not give them into the hand of Joshua.

[cardw]

And again, you don't factor in culture....

I did factor in culture. Who else but a bunch of men would separate the virgins out from the rest of the people and make up rules that would allow them to put away if they weren't pleased.

It's obvious the OT was made up by men not an all knowing god. That's the cultural factor.

[LifeHiscost]

Or what about the Christian death millennium called the middle ages? Too bad we don't have pictures of that wonderful time.

If you are truly aware of the history of the time you refer to,

you will remember the Bible (the Word) was chained to the pulpit in that period and only available to the few religious authoritarian figures deemed spiritually aware enough to give to the masses the proper meaning of the Word. These religious leaders were either hypocritical at the time or totally ignoring the principles of the gospel that allows people the free will not only to find their own joy in Jesus but removes the fear of making a mistake when their hearts know and love the Author of the Word. Not a period of time too much dissimilar to the time that led up to the crucifixion of Jesus as well as the days we live in today..

"One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind."Romans 14:5 NKJV

What we believe does not make it true or false, but it does identify which master we serve if we are knowledgeable of the Word. And it also is able to deliver us from the enemy of souls.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."John 8:32 KJV

Regards!!

[aldona]

Quote:

Are of those atheist organization-- for instance, is Doctors Without Borders atheistic?

Most of the organizations I mentioned operate completely separate from any religious agenda, and the religious affiliation of anybody wishing to join or participate is completely irrelevant (as is the religious affiliation of the people they try to help).

You can call that "atheist", if you want to.

From the website of "Medecins sans Frontieres":

Quote:

MSF's work is based on the humanitarian principles of medical ethics and impartiality. Because we wish to remain independent we limit the amount of funding we accept from governments. More than 80% of our budget internationally comes from private donations, and in Australia 100% of our budget comes from private sources.

This funding structure means that MSF teams on the ground can be free to define operational priorities. Our interventions are based on needs alone, not on political, economic, religious or social agendas. Thanks to our independence and impartiality, we are able to provide health care to people who otherwise would not receive it.

They have a leaflet which explains their humanitarian work, and on the front is a picture of a medical person attending to a patient, and the caption: "Christian? Muslim? Jewish? Buddhist? Human."

The other groups I mentioned are similar. When I attend an Amnesty meeting, nobody asks me what religion I belong to. When the Asylum Seeker center gives assistance to someone, the only relevance that religion has is that we are asked to provide food etc. which is culturally and religiously acceptable to the recipient. (Example: If we donate foods containing meat to the food bank, we are asked to choose "halal" whenever possible, as most of their clients are from areas where Islam is the dominant religion. The food bank then marks which foods are "halal" or "not halal" so that people can choose.)

It is when one talks privately with fellow volunteers that one discovers that many of them are not religious in any way and simply want to help other people in need. There are also many others who do belong to various faiths - all manner of Christian denominations, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, even pagans and wiccans. The heartfelt desire to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those who are sick/ in prison is not confined to those who go around crying "Lord, Lord."

It is actually very refreshing to work in an environment where there is no pressure to proselytize or talk about religion, or to try to make converts, or subtly advertise our religion under the guise of meeting people's needs.

As far as I know, there is no organization or charity which is "atheist" in the sense that you must be a non-believer in order to join. But there are plenty that accept anyone who has it in their heart to help their fellow man, regardless of any considerations of religion or politics on the part of the helper or the one helped.

AJ

[LifeHiscost]

This has nothing to do with logic or fact. By your own statement you refer to it as belief.

Perhaps this is one reason there is decided evidence of little compatibility existing between conclusions here, that is belief is not seen as fact or logic. Therefor when Jesus said through His servant, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved!", it made no sense or logic to those who did not believe.

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."1 Corinthians 2:14 NKJV

The only way a person can be different than a natural man and find understanding of the Word is to invite Jesus to give of His nature to themselves.

"...looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith... "Hebrews 12:2 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

They simply ignore what they can't explain.

"“Can you solve the mysteries of God?

Can you discover everything about the Almighty?

Such knowledge is higher than the heavens—

and who are you?

It is deeper than the underworld

what do you know?"

Job 11:7,8 NLT

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

There is a statement in the Spirit of Prophecy that plainly

states there will be those in heaven who never heard the name of Jesus while on earth. As I recall she was referring to those who submitted to fulfillment of the fruit of the Spirit, despite their lack of personal knowledge of the Son of Man.

"Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him"Acts 10:34-36 NKJV

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."Romans 1:18-21 NKJV

While this last Scripture does not clearly state there are those not having known Jesus personally who will be in the kingdom of heaven, the relating of those who are without excuse begs the question, are there some who need no excuse because they did honor Him Who was revealed as the underlined indicates?

I believe it does. When they at last meet Jesus, they will gratefully bend the knee to Him Whom they knew existed and gave obeisance as they were led to believe in Him with the limited knowledge they had.

"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."

John 10:16 NKJV

Blessings!

[karl]

A Deist isn't a Christian in any orthodox sense. Jefferson claimed that he was a True Christian because of Deism. The orthodox establishment didn't see Jefferson as a Christian. And I doubt you would see Jefferson as a Christian.

It's only convenient to claim Jefferson as a Christian so Christians can claim the United States as a Christian nation.

[Lutz13]

I've told you before....Doing kindness to your enemys is like heaping coals on thier heads...God also promised the Isrealites that in the taking of Caanun, he's use hornets to drive out the canninites...Or do you not remember these texts, Rich?

Niel, I am just curious what you think of the following:

"As the Amorite retreated down the road from Beth-horon, the Lord destroyed them with a terrible hailstorm from heaven that continued until they reached Azekah. The hail killed more of the enemy that the Israelites killed with the sword." --Joshua 10:11

The vengeance you are describing isn't matching. So there must be another explanation.

[phkrause]

Subsumption claims are not logically defensible: 'everything good you do is inspired by my God and everything evil you do is inspired by your humanity' is a statement with no evidence except for the assertion of the one making it. The reverse can be asserted just as easily: 'any good Christians do is because they are humans and humans have a fundamental core of goodness'. Neither is convincing on the evidence, and the phenomenon that needs to be explained is when we look at the overall statistics (not anecdotal evidence) exactly as many Christians as non-believers do both evil and good. That is, the truth as far as the evidence actually shows is that being a Christian does not enhance the incidence of moral behaviour or reduce the incidence of immoral. No-one has yet satisfactorily addressed that point.

I like and agree with most of your statement. The thing I have a problem with is, just because someone calls themselves a christian doesn't mean that they are, because there are many that do and when we observe there life's you can tell they are not. The other thing that I believe, is we are all on equal footing! In the NT Jesus doesn't say that Jews are the good guys and the gentiles are the bad guys. There is no mention of this group being this or that, etc. Obviously in the OT we do see or understand that all those people that were living in Canaan were considered evil and god wanted the Israelites to have nothing to do with them. So as far as I can tell we do not see the same in the NT. The Jews had there chance to be that but refused, so God had his gospel brought to the gentiles a different way, and these we now know to be Christians. I do have to agree with Karl in that Jesus does say that we by ourselves can do nothing good without him, so in that respect I see that many who do not believe in a "God" and do good, are really doing good because God is doing this good through them with or with out there knowledge or consent.

pk

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

A Deist isn't a Christian in any orthodox sense. Jefferson claimed that he was a True Christian because of Deism. The orthodox establishment didn't see Jefferson as a Christian. And I doubt you would see Jefferson as a Christian.

It's only convenient to claim Jefferson as a Christian so Christians can claim the United States as a Christian nation.

Hold on just a New York minute here. Jefferson was a Christian.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

This has nothing to do with logic or fact. By your own statement you refer to it as belief.

Perhaps this is one reason there is decided evidence of little compatibility existing between conclusions here, that is belief is not seen as fact or logic.

That's the problem with most of the dialog here. Definitions of words don't stay the same. You are essentially claiming to be a dictionary unto yourself. This is intellectually dishonest.

Belief does not equal fact or logic

What is happening is if you get proven wrong logically you simply change the definition of the word to fit your position. And you're not the only one doing this. That's why Christian apologetics aren't respected.

[LifeHiscost]

Belief does not equal fact or logic

Jesus said believe (necessarily a belief) and you will be saved. It is declared that belief voiced by Jesus as neither logical or factual, ergo Jesus unknowingly spoke a falsehood or He was a known liar, by an unbeliever's estimation. And the position professes to make all Christians liars to uphold unbelief.

Your position is known from the Word.

"“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

“But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

when the Son of man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”"Matthew 25:24-46 NKJV

Regards!

[Overaged]

That's the problem with most of the dialog here. Definitions of words don't stay the same. You are essentially claiming to be a dictionary unto yourself. This is intellectually dishonest.

Belief does not equal fact or logic

What is happening is if you get proven wrong logically you simply change the definition of the word to fit your position. And you're not the only one doing this. That's why Christian apologetics aren't respected.

Well; I think your reasoning could be straightened out a little. First, what you call "intellectual dishonesty" is not in fact that. It is simply a different understanding. Second, you say belief does not equal fact or logic. How can this be true? There is a large national company here in Canada who has a certain sign posted all over the place. It has one word on it. "Believe." LOL, I am sure that my family has grown tired of me saying this; but everytime we come across one of the signs, I always say: "In what?" I have asked many people from this company what is meant by that word and none of them know.

Belief is logical; and it is based upon fact. It is logical to conclude that we need a Savior, and as Christians, we believe in the FACT of Jesus. And that's a fact!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Belief does not equal fact or logic

Jesus said believe (necessarily a belief) and you will be saved. It is declared that belief voiced by Jesus as neither logical or factual, ergo Jesus unknowingly spoke a falsehood or He was a known liar, by an unbeliever's estimation. And the position professes to make all Christians liars to uphold unbelief.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

That's the problem with most of the dialog here. Definitions of words don't stay the same. You are essentially claiming to be a dictionary unto yourself. This is intellectually dishonest.

Belief does not equal fact or logic

What is happening is if you get proven wrong logically you simply change the definition of the word to fit your position. And you're not the only one doing this. That's why Christian apologetics aren't respected.

Well; I think your reasoning could be straightened out a little. First, what you call "intellectual dishonesty" is not in fact that. It is simply a different understanding.