The most abusive Christian phrase ...

[Bravus]

OK, let's talk about specifics. Give some examples of things that God ordered done which cause you the greatest problem.

OK, let's stick with Numbers 31 for a bit: we haven't anywhere near adequately accounted for that, yet, so no need to go searching for more. At the beginning of the chapter, God directly orders genocide, yes or no? "Kill everyone, including non-combatant women and children" is the instruction described as coming directly from God. Moses, who was God's representative, was angry when those instructions weren't carried out, and ensured that they mostly were, with the modification of keeping the virgins alive. But if we agree that genocide is evil, then this is a clear, specific example of an evil that the Bible clearly says God ordered. That is a different situation from the 'God allowed humans free will and humans did evil' rationalisation that has been repeatedly offered in this thread.

Originally Posted By: John317

Also, could you describe what you believe the Bible teaches as to what God's ultimate purposes were in having Israel go to Egypt and then leading them into the Promised Land?

The Biblical account seems to teach that the Egyptian slavery was to some extent an historical accident: Joseph went to Egypt and did very well there, the Israelites multiplied in Egypt and then a new king decided to put them to work as slaves. As far as I can tell there's not a text that says specifically why this was allowed by God - it seems as though it just happened. This is in contrast with the Babylonian captivity, which is portrayed as a divine punishment for apostasy.

The Exodus is portrayed as being the fulfilment of God's promises to Abraham of a land for his people (with any inconvenient indigenes slaughtered on the way through).

I'm not so sure what your specific question is here, unless it's to start an argument that God's purposes for Israel made the genocide of anyone who was not-Israel morally OK? Or to describe the non-Israelites as being so debased, all of them, as to deserve genocide? Sorry, I shouldn't assume, but will wait to hear. That's my shorthand understanding of God's purposes in these events.

[karl]

I believe that God worked long and hard with the inhabitants of Canaan. We learn from what Rahab told the spies that it was well known in Canaan that God intended to give the land to the Israelites. Those who directly and stubbornly resisted His will were destroyed, just as unrepentant sinners will be at the end of time. The evil will be extirpated, root and branch. The only way we can be saved is to be grafted in to the true vine - to join spiritual Israel. Joining Israel as an avenue of salvation was also open to the Canaanites prior to their destruction. One other avenue to avoid death would have been to simply move away before the attack came. It wasn't like they didn't know it was coming.

Our focus as Christians needs to be on what God is asking of us PRIOR to the falling of His judgment. BEFORE judgment is when we have the option to do something to avert it (ie Nineveh.) Once the destruction has begun it is too late.

"God calls upon you to believe. Heed His voice. Cease talking of the wrath of God and talk of His compassion and His abundant mercy. Jesus sits as a refiner and purifier of silver. The furnace in which you may be placed may be very hot, yet you will come forth as gold seven times purified, reflecting the image of Jesus. Have courage. Look up, believe, and you shall see of the salvation of God." {HP 119.5}

[Mark Aurelius]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/us/28beliefs.html

That's a very interesting observation. I was listening to the Unbelievable podcast recently, and David Robertson, christian apologist, pointed out that there is a lot of Christianity in Scandinavia. They even have a state church in a number of those countries, and he said Norway is second only the the US in number of missionaries. Christianity isn't suppressed there, it is free, it's just that the people aren't that into religion or any theological stance, they take their values and institutions for granted, a sort of philosophical laziness.

A similar situation is described in this more general article:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424..._article_MoreIn

[Dr. Rich]

karl, if God is fair, then how come He doesn't cause all of us to go blind like He allegedly did with Saul? Saul didn't have much of a choice to refuse what he was told to do--that is if he wanted to see again. Why doesn't God to that to everyone? That way there would not be any sin anymore-right? I mean, how could one sin if God's love is unconditional? If God's grace is so great and sufficient, then what is anyone worried about? If there is no limit to forgiveness, perhaps Satan can ask for forgiveness too and the whole could sing a happy song.

[karl]

Yeah it is too bad that God isn't just another player in the playground. Or is it?

He could be the same with everyone. But in order for that to work out, everyone would have to be the same.

Or, He can custom design each person's invitation and transformation. He can personally interact with each one of us. Under these circumstances, each of us can be individually unique as we are brought to a uniform level of submission (unless, of course, we reject the invitation.)

Now, you can say that you prefer the former scenario. Unfortunately, you do not have that choice.

None of us gets to choose the nature of our interaction with God. Our only choice is to accept His interaction with us or to reject it.

All the complaints about the way God has done it or is doing it are just a waste of breath.

The take home message, IMHO, is to submit to Him no matter how much of a monster you may perceive Him to be. Where else do you have to go?

But at least do this. At least allow yourself to see Him through the lens of Jesus Christ. I think it shows a desire to give God a black eye if you believe literally (and castigate God for) the OT accounts of His dealings with the Canaanites while simultaneously rejecting or explaining away the tempering truths of the NT.

[Bravus]

Quote:

The take home message, IMHO, is to submit to Him no matter how much of a monster you may perceive Him to be. Where else do you have to go?

That's exactly the point I discuss quite often with my wife. She also tends to continue to think 'inside' the Christian box, and says 'If I didn't choose God, I'd have to be a Satanist'! As if those are the only two possible choices!

(One of my favourite scenes in a book occurs when one character says "We have two choices, we can do {x} or {y}", and another says "No, don't say that: we always have an almost infinite number of alternatives." It's true, though of course some of those alternatives are crazy or wrong. But limiting ourselves to false dichotomies cripples our thinking.)

Within the Christian scheme, there's what you've said: accept God (subtext: as He is presented by the church of your choice), or succumb to Satanism or nihilism/hedonism. But it's just not that simple. Atheism is another alternative. There are many other theistic religions in the world. God can be re-understood in different terms, rather than accepted in the terms dictated by others. There are non-theistic spiritual paths such as meditation. And so on.

Setting up a false set of choices, in which one option is unthinkable, making the other inevitable, is forcing faith... which I don't think is quite how Jesus saw things.

[karl]

Quote:

The take home message, IMHO, is to submit to Him no matter how much of a monster you may perceive Him to be. Where else do you have to go?

Setting up a false set of choices, in which one option is unthinkable, making the other inevitable, is forcing faith... which I don't think is quite how Jesus saw things.

I didn't set up a false choice. Neither option is inevitable nor unthinkable. I simply asked the question, "Where else do you have to go?"

If you're happy with going somewhere else, I'm sure you will tell us all about it. Maybe you could start your own religion and seduce many on CA to follow your lead. Theme song could be "Stand up, stand up for..... uh...?"

Jesus offered one, and only one choice - For Him or Against Him. He said, "I AM the Way, the Truth, the Life. He did NOT say, "I am A way." He is THE way.

I'll be following Him.

[Bravus]

(again, I'm not arguing *for* these alternatives, just reminding everyone that they do exist... as I said earlier, better apologetic arguments are needed)

[Dr. Rich]

karl wrote: "None of us gets to choose the nature of our interaction with God. Our only choice is to accept His interaction with us or to reject it."

Are you sure about that karl? Perhaps you have not been reading what I have been reading in the bible. The bible is filled with places where humans chose to obey God and God's promise to them was kept. On the other hand, the bible is filled with places where humans chose NOT to obey and therefore God could not have any interaction with them.

We all have choices to make and life is full of them. You can even choose to not have choices but that is called death. Read what God said about this in Deut. 30:15-20 Also see what God told Cain in Gen.4:7. Good luck in your choice that you make!

[SivartM]

Maybe Jesus was wrong and Buddha has the light.

I don't believe that, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

[karl]

karl wrote: "None of us gets to choose the nature of our interaction with God. Our only choice is to accept His interaction with us or to reject it."

Are you sure about that karl? Perhaps you have not been reading what I have been reading in the bible. The bible is filled with places where humans chose to obey God and God's promise to them was kept. On the other hand, the bible is filled with places where humans chose NOT to obey and therefore God could not have any interaction with them.

We all have choices to make and life is full of them. You can even choose to not have choices but that is called death. Read what God said about this in Deut. 30:15-20 Also see what God told Cain in Gen.4:7. Good luck in your choice that you make!

I agree with you, Rich. Those who accept God's overtures (interaction) are blessed. Those who reject are NOT blessed.

In this hostile world, "not blessed" is a very bad thing.

Yet some try to measure the blessing by their own yardstick and find fault with God for not blessing them in the way THEY want to be blessed. Can you say "Presumption?" Should the clay say to the potter, "Why hast thou made me thus?"

[karl]

Maybe Jesus was wrong and Buddha has the light.

I don't believe that, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

Obviously you don't disbelieve it enough, if it is still possible to you.

[Dr. Rich]

karl, LOL, are you having a hard time saying the words "Obey God"? Do you see anything wrong with those words?

[SivartM]

You don't think there is the minutest possibility of Christianity being wrong?

People say that human reason is fallible... unless they're talking about their own.

[Bravus]

Strong-arm tactics do not an argument constitute...

[Aliensanctuary]

Setting up a false set of choices, in which one option is unthinkable, making the other inevitable, is forcing faith... which I don't think is quite how Jesus saw things.

In the Last Days, during which we will all play a part, I believe, the choices we have today must be narrowed down to only two...To be branded as a servant of Satan, or, a branded as a servant of the LORD. I don't see any in-between positions.

Displaying the mark of God will mean poverty, humiliation, persecution, and almost certain death at the hands of those bearing the mark of Satan.

But, as Jesus said, if his followers die, they will live. If they value instead their lives or possessions or family or friends more than serving their Master, and they choose to live, they accept the mark ownership of Satan, and must share his fate.

[Guest]

karl, if God is fair, then how come He doesn't cause all of us to go blind like He allegedly did with Saul? Saul didn't have much of a choice to refuse what he was told to do--that is if he wanted to see again. Why doesn't God to that to everyone?

He won't do it for you because you are not as important as Saul was. You had the truth and rejected it. Saul/Paul didn't do that.

[Bravus]

Nice.

[Bravus]

Turns out there are plenty of abusive Christian phrases...

[karl]

karl, LOL, are you having a hard time saying the words "Obey God"? Do you see anything wrong with those words?

Not at all. I am totally in favor of obedience to God. I believe that voluntary submission and obedience of His creatures to God is the object of the plan of salvation. God knows that our obedience will bring us the greatest happiness (He made us - this is written in the owner's manual. Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice.)

[Dr. Rich]

Good post Aliens.... Yep, Satan's gonna come down on you like a ton of bricks if you choose to be a bond servant for Jesus. So will some of your family and friends, not to mention the worst will be fellow church members who refused to open their eyes.

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

But, as Jesus said, if his followers die, they will live. If they value instead their lives or possessions or family or friends more than serving their Master, and they choose to live, they accept the mark ownership of Satan, and must share his fate.

Let me fix my previous statement.

Quote:

But, as Jesus said, if his followers die, they will live. If anyone values their lives or possessions or family or friends more than serving the LORD, and they choose to live by receiving the mark of ownership of Satan, then they must share his fate.

The world during the time period following the resurrection will achieve a level of prosperity previously unknown. Too bad for the followers of the LORD. They won't be allowed to take part in the forbidden pleasures that engulf the whole planet. With no jobs or money or credit, they are poor and homeless, but a hope burns within that even death cannot extinguish.

In this life, we make small choices that may affect the ultimate choice we must make in the Last Days. At that time, will we follow the world and save ourselves, or listen to the Messengers from the LORD and accept his mark that will bring pain, suffering, and death, then life forever in perfect bodies. Only by dying for him can we prove our loyalty to the LORD.

[LifeHiscost]

Good post Aliens.... Yep, Satan's gonna come down on you like a ton of bricks if you choose to be a bond servant for Jesus. So will some of your family and friends, not to mention the worst will be fellow church members who refused to open their eyes.

Perhaps in some cases your words will come to pass, Rich, as present circumstances in various Christian circles around the world have attested. However to say this as a general principle of all followers of the Lord Jesus seems to totally ignore a particular promise given by Jesus through the Holy Spirit, not to mention other words spoken directly by Jesus.

"No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to us all. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it." 1 Corinthians 10:13 TNIV

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." " Matthew 11:28-30 TNIV

These words do not say the bricks will never fall,but it does necessarily promise the strength important to remain happily faithful.

Regards!!

[LifeHiscost]

'If I didn't choose God, I'd have to be a Satanist'! As if those are the only two possible choices!

"Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand." Matthew 12:25 TNIV

"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."

Matthew 12:30 TNIV

"But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand." Matthew 7:26 TNIV

Regards!!

[Bravus]

Yes. My point was that Christians are locked into a particular set of choices that they imagine are the only available choices. You guys have done a wonderful job of illustrating my point.