The most abusive Christian phrase ...

[Overaged]

The reason we have the word belief is because it can't be proven. So it is not a fact.

If it was a fact we would call it a fact.

And belief is not a system of proof so it's not logic.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

The reason we have the word belief is because it can't be proven. So it is not a fact.

If it was a fact we would call it a fact.

And belief is not a system of proof so it's not logic.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

We are talking about definitions. At least that was what I thought we were talking about.

[Bravus]

In response to pkrause in post #354410:

I take the point you're making here about not all who claim to be Christians are 'real' Christians (whatever that means), but then you see the logical problem here? I'll try to lay it out as clearly as I can:

(the numbers connote logical steps in a single argument, which needs to be read and understood as a whole. Piecemeal disagreements will to some extent miss the point, though challenging the premises or the logical structure is fair enough)

1. Christians claim to have both a moral code (the 10 commandments, Jesus' 2 commandments, Matthew 5, various other laws and principles) and a source of power that prompts them to keep this moral code and empowers them to do so (the Holy Spirit).

2. Given those claims, we would expect that Christians would do more good and less harm in the world than non-Christians.

3. That's an empirical claim, and ought to be able to be tested with evidence.

4. When we use the class of those who self-identify as Christians, we find that that claim is not supported by the evidence. Statistics for both philanthropy and abuse are the same for (self-identified) Christians as for the rest of the population.

5. Now, if we 'define out' all the Christians who do bad things - because we suggest that that makes them 'not real Christians' - we are then comparing 'the set of Christians who don't do bad things' against 'the whole of the general population' as a way of finding out whether Christians do fewer bad things than the whole of the general population.

You see the logical problem, right?

Any other credible approach (anecdotal evidence is not a credible approach) to testing the claim that Christianity empowers people to do more good and less evil would be much appreciated.

[karl]

Karl, this is why you are dishonest. I never said that Jefferson wasn't a Christian in general.

.....

So Karl, it is quite evident that either you are willfully being dishonest or you are just being lazy and simply redefining when you aren't willing to research.

I will repost what I wrote previously. The Founders were Christian. The reason I entered this discussion was because you posted that they were NOT Christian - they were Deists instead. Now you say you weren't claiming they weren't Christian. I cannot follow you all over the map. Pick a line and stick to it for a while.

I think it is a testament to Christian tolerance that you are not booted off ClubAdventist for your repeated attacks (see above) which are specifically against forum rules.

Thomas Jefferson:

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man."

"Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus."

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

Patrick Henry - Orator of the Revolution:

"This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed."

—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

"It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

John Adams and John Hancock:

"We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!" [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:

"The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity."

"I have examined all religions... the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

Samuel Adams:

"He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all." [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

John Quincy Adams:

"Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]? Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? ...That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?

--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

"The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code."

John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin:

"We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel" –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:

Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:

(1) Christianity

(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock:

"In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect... that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness."

John Jay:

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

Samuel Johnston:

• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.

[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison

“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

"It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other."

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;

"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,

the LORD is our king;

He will save us."

James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution

"Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience."

[Bravus]

{spock voice}They're Christian, Jim, but not as we know it{/spock voice}

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Karl, this is why you are dishonest. I never said that Jefferson wasn't a Christian in general.

.....

So Karl, it is quite evident that either you are willfully being dishonest or you are just being lazy and simply redefining when you aren't willing to research.

I will repost what I wrote previously. The Founders were Christian. The reason I entered this discussion was because you posted that they were NOT Christian - they were Deists instead. Now you say you weren't claiming they weren't Christian. I cannot follow you all over the map. Pick a line and stick to it for a while.

[LifeHiscost]

Well, I'm thankful for tolerance Christian or not.

I have to agree with that to a point. But I know that what I've read in the posts, over the past number of days on this topic, posting what I suppose some are fully satisfied are logical facts, have made me realize how wonderful the facts and logic of the Word, understandable to the youngest child to give them hope for their future, but when making effort to explain the same ends by these posts, is enough to mystify the most intelligent of adults who might wish to find their way into the kingdom of God made easier.

Sorry I'm so dense!

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

Romans 1:16 KJV

Regards!

[karl]

THE FOUNDERS WERE CHRISTIAN

And they would specifically disagree with Rich on whether the government of the US should have been derived from Biblical principles.

Noah Webster

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]

George Washington

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

James McHenry

"Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience."

Benjamin Rush:

“I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism."

Noah Webster:

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”

[source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

[karl]

Democracy is almost entirely a secular idea. The claim that the Bible has any major role with the development of self governing is simply without basis.

We see above that the Founders specifically claim Christianity and the Bible as the "soul of republicanism." The US government is a republic.

Who should we believe, Rich, you or the guys that put the government together?

[cardw]

THE FOUNDERS WERE CHRISTIAN

Oh that works, put it in all caps.

I think you are repeating yourself. I said that Jefferson wasn't an orthodox Christian. It's obvious that the founding fathers considered themselves Christian. Now you have me repeating myself...

You are ignoring the ideas of the enlightenment which are major secular influences on the founding fathers.

I would give you references but you won't read them so I will leave you to your willful ignorance.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Democracy is almost entirely a secular idea. The claim that the Bible has any major role with the development of self governing is simply without basis.

We see above that the Founders specifically claim Christianity and the Bible as the "soul of republicanism." The US government is a republic.

Who should we believe, Rich, you or the guys that put the government together?

Oh and the Greeks, the inventors of democracy, are all Christian. I guess the Roman empire had nothing to do with the idea of a republic.

Really now. You have to ignore massive amounts of history.

Sure the Christians and the Ministers of the founding fathers are going to claim that Christianity and the Bible thought of it before everyone else. Except we have massive evidence that democracy and the republic existed in Greece and Rome long before there was revolutionary war or a Christian religion. Have you ever heard of a Roman Senate?

[John317]

Quote:

cardw: All and all the basis of Democracy is in the Greek philosophers who first came up with the ideas of self rule. They were debating these ideas long before Jesus came along.

The founding fathers were well versed in the Greek classics as evidenced by their debate among themselves. And it's true that they considered themselves Christians, but enlightened Christians.

Quote:

karl: I think it is a testament to Christian tolerance that you are not booted off ClubAdventist for your repeated attacks (see above) which are specifically against forum rules.

Quote:

cardw:Well, I'm thankful for tolerance Christian or not.

Richard, you're right that the Greeks of Athens were debating questions about government and democracy before the time of Christ. However, Plato, Socrates and Aristotle, saw nothing immoral or self-contradictory in democracies or republics having slaves. Also, Plato thought the best form of government was a benevolent dictatorship. Notice that they all thought it normal to have young boys as sex toys, and Socarates believed he was being given visions by a supernatual being. (I personally believe the Holy Spirit was working on the hearts of people like Socrates.)

When it comes to the Founding Fathers, they understood the Greek classics, as you say, but they also had the British and the Roman models, and they were also definitely influenced by their Christian or biblical beliefs. So I think that you're right in what you say about Greece, but you were wrong to apparently dismiss the role of Christian ideals and biblical influences. Perhaps you did not intend to dismiss the fundamental Christian roots of the nation, but that's the impression I got from your earlier posts about it.

Many of the Founding Fathers did see something wrong with owning slaves, and if you read the first few drafts of the Declaration of Independence, you will see references to slave-trading as one of Jefferson's reasons for declaring independence from King George III. Perhaps you've seen this already. The only reason the American colonists didn't abolish slavery at the time of the formation of the Constitution is that they knew if this was adopted, the Southern states, such as Georgia, North and Carolina, wouldn't have wanted to be part of the United States. This comes out in the debates over the Constitution. They saw it as more important to unite as a nation than to free the slaves at that time, but many of them did see slavery as evil and as something they needed to abolish. Personally I wish that they had gone ahead and abolished it, but I can also see why they considered it more essential that they unite as one nation at that point.

Anyone who knows the Bible and studies the American legal system is aware of the great influence of the Bible on the laws of this country.

Can you see our governmental and legal system emerging out of atheism or Buddhism or Islam? I can't, and neither could the Founding Fathers.

=========================

As moderator:

I also wanted to add something about what Karl said in regard to repeated attacks on the Forum. I do apologize to him on your behalf because it's my reponsibility to delete or edit those kinds of remarks out of posts. I probably should have done that. I saw them but I considered it more important at this point to allow you the freedom to express yourself, and I thought that since Karl is a Christian, he would be willing to have patience with you. But I may have been wrong to let it pass. It can easily be misunderstood.

I would like to see us all be as courteous and thoughtful as possible towards each other in the discussion, even (perhaps especially?) as we disagree. It makes it a lot more fun besides.

Just a suggestion: If anyone feels that the other person is being dishonest or is lying about the facts, and they want to express this, try saying something like, "It seems to me you are not facing the facts as they stand," or "I feel that you are not being completely forthcoming about this."

[karl]

No, my argument is with you, Rich. Methinks thou hast not done thy homework. Do you have any TJ quote in which he claims to be not a Christian, but a Deist? I don't think he ever said he was a Deist. He said he was a Christian.

[cardw]

Quote:

Can you see our governmental and legal system emerging out of atheism or Buddhism or Islam? I can't, and neither could the Founding Fathers.

Many governmental systems came out of the enlightenment including democracy. Sure the Bible had an influence, but the only governments described in the Bible are Totalitarianism and Communism.

Quote:

Anyone who knows the Bible and studies the American legal system is aware of the great influence of the Bible on the laws of this country.

It was the application of the Philosophy of Jesus to the enlightenment that created that anti slave movement and the idea the humans could govern themselves. It was humanism and Quaker philosophy. The Bible doesn't value humans over laws until we get to Jesus. And there is absolutely no indication that the Bible is against slavery. You have to engage a secular humanist value system to break the hold that a God of violence and fear has over the world.

Sure the bible has some legal influence, but so did many many other legal philosophies.

Quote:

Just a suggestion: If anyone feels that the other person is being dishonest or is lying about the facts, and they want to express this, try saying something like, "It seems to me you are not facing the facts as they stand," or "I feel that you are not being completely forthcoming about this."

Fair enough

[Bravus]

Can we have a good-faith effort from both of you at this time? It's pretty clear both that Jefferson was not a Deist as we understand that term today, and also that he would have very strong differences with most modern Christians. If we look at his abridged Bible, most of what he took out was miracles. He seems to have had a different view on the nature and divinity of Jesus.

The bottom line, at least for me, is that (a) neither camp can fully claim him and ( the debate is going nowhere. Can't we move on rather than go 'round and 'round, name-calling?

[cardw]

Karl,

You are debating positions I haven't taken. It takes so much time to clean up all the misrepresentation of what I have stated and then get to the point that it has become clear that we are never going to be on the same page so as to have any meaningful dialog.

So I respectfully bow out of this discussion.

[karl]

Oh and the Greeks, the inventors of democracy, are all Christian. I guess the Roman empire had nothing to do with the idea of a republic.

Really now. You have to ignore massive amounts of history.

Sure the Christians and the Ministers of the founding fathers are going to claim that Christianity and the Bible thought of it before everyone else. Except we have massive evidence that democracy and the republic existed in Greece and Rome long before there was revolutionary war or a Christian religion. Have you ever heard of a Roman Senate?

No, the place democracy was first thought of was not the issue. The statement you made was that democracy is purely secular - that the only kinds of government that could be derived from the Bible were totalitarianism and communism.

The Founders disagree with your conclusion.

Nobody is discussing the birthplace of thinking about democracy (except you, all of a sudden.)

[cardw]

Can we have a good-faith effort from both of you at this time? It's pretty clear both that Jefferson was not a Deist as we understand that term today, and also that he would have very strong differences with most modern Christians. If we look at his abridged Bible, most of what he took out was miracles. He seems to have had a different view on the nature and divinity of Jesus.

The bottom line, at least for me, is that (a) neither camp can fully claim him and ( the debate is going nowhere. Can't we move on rather than go 'round and 'round, name-calling?

I think I did state that Jefferson really claimed to be a Universalist and that Deism wasn't an accurate description of his views, though he did use some Deistic arguments.

I don't think I ever claimed Jefferson to be an atheist or an agnostic though it could be argued that he was functionally agnostic on the divinity of Christ.

The correction that I offered was that the founding fathers were students of enlightenment thinking. And I think they were trying to find traces of that thinking in the teachings of Jesus as a philosopher since they were politicians too. One simply couldn't have made much progress without using the language of Christianity.

But since I haven't been successful in describing my points in a way that Karl could understand them I have respectfully bowed out of this line of discussion.

[karl]

I think I did state that Jefferson really claimed to be a Universalist and that Deism wasn't an accurate description of his views, though he did use some Deistic arguments.

[karl]

Of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, nearly half (24) held seminary or Bible school degrees.

Check out this prayer of George Washington's:

Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the Lamb and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of Thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in Thy fear, and dying in Thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy son, Jesus Christ.

How high would you rate this prayer on the scale between Christian and agnostic? I'd give it a 10 on the Christian end of the scale.

[Bravus]

Arguing with yourself now man...

[karl]

Arguing with yourself now man...

No, I'm still arguing with the far-fetched notion that "most of the Founding Fathers were Deists."

You and Rich have bowed out of the "Jefferson was a Deist" discussion, but Jefferson was not the only Founding Father.

[John317]

Before I bought an anthology of the writings of Th. Jefferson, I would have said he was a deist, because that's a common belief and some have heard this in high school or even in some college history classes. But while his beliefs certainly weren't orthodox-- as Richard said-- Jefferson believed he was a Christian in the true sense. He believed (wrongly, I think) that he was following Christ's essential teachings, rather than the things, such as miracles, that Jefferson thought had been added by his followers. He even said that he couldn't accept those things-- including Jesus' claims that He had come from God and was going back to God-- because he simply couldn't believe those things were possible. In other words, he started out with a preconception and he wasn't ever willing to examine all the evidence with an open-mind.

I'm not putting Jefferson down. He did the best he knew how with the knowledge he had and for the time he lived in. He was surrounded by men who believed similarly. Only God knows his heart, whether he was honest with himself and with God. I'd love to meet him in heaven and talk to him, because he's one of my favorite American heroes (despite his errors, his philandering, and his owning of slaves).

[John317]

I get the point about free will, and I agree that it's worth living despite the pain.

My problem is not with the evil God allowed, but with the evil He actively ordered.

OK, let's talk about specifics. Give some examples of things that God ordered done which cause you the greatest problem.

Also, could you describe what you believe the Bible teaches as to what God's ultimate purposes were in having Israel go to Egypt and then leading them into the Promised Land?

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Arguing with yourself now man...

No, I'm still arguing with the far-fetched notion that "most of the Founding Fathers were Deists."

You and Rich have bowed out of the "Jefferson was a Deist" discussion, but Jefferson was not the only Founding Father.

As I understand it, there were 57 total and only Jefferson and Hancock, or maybe Franklin, were supposed deists and were latched onto in the educational stream for those who wished to do away with any god that would have unwanted control over their lives, or anybody else's for that matter.

Personally I'm glad to think the God of love keeps control of me at my request, because I know His care is far superior to my control. Sorry for those who don't accept the privilege.

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”" Hebrews 13:5 NKJV