What I Learned About Abortion & the Adventist Church

[Nic Samojluk]

For the most part, abortion-on-demand has been law in the US. Thus statistics from the US are not relevant when comparing restrictive abortion laws with banning abortion laws. One might want to look at The Netherlands or Germany for a better comparison.

[Nic Samojluk]

Here are additional comments from the Alan Guttmacher Institute, the main provider of abortion statistics with information related to the factors which have an influence on the incidence of induced abortions, and the difficulty of securing accurate information about the number of abortions in other countries:

Quote:

In developed countries with high abortion rates, use of abortion is likely to fall rapidly when a range of contraceptive methods become widely available and effectively used.

As a result, lack of access to contraceptive services and supplies can be an important barrier to the use of family planning. Negative attitudes toward various contraceptive methods may also impede change.

Recent trends in legal abortion rates are predominantly downward, although they vary from country to country. The most striking change is that rates declined by one-fourth to one-half in the countries of the former Soviet Union and in Eastern and Central Europe during a period when fertility was also declining. The most likely immediate reason is greater use of modern contraceptives.

Abortion rates are also declining in several other developed countries, including Denmark, Finland, France, Italy, Japan, the United States and probably Germany. Fertility has not risen in these countries, and it is unlikely that rates of sexual activity have fallen significantly or that the reporting of abortions has changed. Thus, the reductions in abortions are probably attributable to more effective contraceptive use.

Legalization of abortion has the initial effect of increasing the number of reported abortions, as legal abortions replace illegal ones, and it probably also increases the total number of abortions as safe services become more widely available. Over the longer term, however, the extensive experience of the developed world and the more limited information from developing countries shows that abortion rates often decline.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2504499.html

We need to consider also that countries like Germany, where Protestant influence has been great in the past, the attitude towards the use of contraceptives is more favorable than other countries like Mexico, for example, where the influence of the Catholic is greater.

Read my next posting!

[Nic Samojluk]

Here is additional explanation provided by the Alan Guttmacher Institute, the main provider of abortion statistics. Bear in mind that this institution was created by Planned Parenthood, the main provider of abortion services, who has a a vested interest in the legalization of abortion in all the countries of the world.

Quote:

In some countries, only certain categories of abortions may be reported--for example, only those that comply with official requirements and regulations, those performed in settings where reporting is routine (such as hospitals or clinics) or those paid for by government insurance. Moreover, in some areas where reporting is legally required, enforcement is uneven.

That no official statistics would be available in countries where abortion is highly restricted by law and can carry the possibility of severe consequences is understandable. In these settings, moreover, attempts to collect information on induced abortion by other methods (for example, by directly questioning women, doctors or other potential providers) are unlikely to elicit accurate reports.2

Abortion data are generally collected by government agencies, which compile statistics from health facilities and physicians that perform abortions. Although reporting is usually required, it is nevertheless incomplete--and thus potentially misleading--in many countries.

Where abortion is highly restricted, data-based abortion estimates are scarce because they require extensive research. Such estimates start with statistics on the number of women hospitalized for abortion complications and build on these data, correcting for undercoverage and underreporting, and then obtain the number of induced abortions by removing spontaneous abortions.

An important step is to determine the proportion of all women having a clandestine abortion who are likely to be hospitalized for complications; this factor is estimated based on findings from available community surveys and from opinion surveys of health professionals.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html

[Dr. Shane]

Using statistics for Germany or the Netherlands will not alter the reliability of the data, because the main provider of those statistics is still the Alan Guttmacher Institute, an organization created by Planned Parenthood, the main provider of both abortion and the main provider of abortion statistics.

Back to the world-wide vast conspiracy again. I am not buying today either. I don't believe there is a vast world-wide conspiracy. I believe things are as they seem.

Now it is a valid point that the use of birth control decreases the abortion rate. I have mentioned that before in this thread. Restrictions on abortion needs is not the solution alone. Making sex education and birth control more available is also a vital part of saving the lives of the unborn. Crisis Pregnancy Centers also play a big role.

The battle to saves the lives of the unborn has many fronts. Restricting abortion is just one. Promoting adoption is another. Funding Crisis Pregnancy Centers is yet another. Implementing sex education in the school system is also vital. Making birth control widely available and affordable is also part of the solution.

Mexico has banned abortion. They provide sex education in their school system and government clinics give away birth control free. Yet their abortion rate is higher than that in the US! Obviously the solution isn't just sex education and birth control.

[fccool]

I would not call it a conspiracy, but there's a pretty clear Eugenics agenda among the elite classes of the "ultra-educated".

"In order to stabilize world population, we must eliminate 350,000 people per day. It is a horrible thing to say, but it is just as bad not to say it."

J. Cousteau, 1991 explorer and UNESCO courier

"We must speak more clearly about sexuality, contraception, about abortion, about values that control population, because the ecological crisis, in short, is the population crisis. Cut the population by 90% and there aren't enough people left to do a great deal of ecological damage."

Mikhail Gorbachev

"Childbearing should be a punishable crime against society, unless the parents hold a government license. All potential parents should be required to use contraceptive chemicals, the government issuing antidotes to citizens chosen for childbearing."

David Brower, first Executive Director of the Sierra Club

So, whether you are buying it or not... there's a clear depopulation agenda that abortion clearly ties into.

[Dr. Shane]

The alleged conspiracy isn't whether or not there are pro-abortion and pro-eugenics forces at work. Clearly there are. They operate out in the open. No conspiracy there. The alleged conspiracy is that behind the scenes they are fraudulently playing with statistics to support their cause.

Abortion statistics in nations where abortions are illegal are put together based on the number of abortion-related complications of women that are admitted to hospitals and clinics for. Scientific research has been done be various government groups, like a nation's department or ministry of health, in order to substantiate if the abortion calculations are correct. In Argentina, the "guess" was that 500,000 illegal abortions were being performed each year. When the government's Ministry of Health, did an extensive scientific study they found the actual number to be no less than 425,000 and no greater than 650,000. Thus the original "guess" of 500,000 was pretty accurate.

That doesn't come as a surprise to those that have studied statistics. When the methodology is correct, statistics are amazingly accurate. There were erring, published, abortion statistics in Mexico where the estimated number of abortions was 20 times higher than the actual number. The problem was in the methodology and it was discovered. No conspiracy. These numbers come from simple, or perhaps complex for some of us, mathematics.

I will give a quick example of bad methodology. In a given state let's say we have 40% registered Republicans, 35% registered Democrats and 25% independents. A poll is done and it is announced the Democrat in a given race has a 10 point lead. Looking into the poll sample it is discovered that of 1,000 people polled, 10% were Republicans, 50% were Democrats and 40% independents.

[Overaged]

The battle to saves the lives of the unborn has many fronts. Restricting abortion is just one. Promoting adoption is another. Funding Crisis Pregnancy Centers is yet another. Implementing sex education in the school system is also vital. Making birth control widely available and affordable is also part of the solution.

Mexico has banned abortion. They provide sex education in their school system and government clinics give away birth control free. Yet their abortion rate is higher than that in the US! Obviously the solution isn't just sex education and birth control.

Well; it depends what one calls "sex education" in the schools. Most of it is disgusting and actually does the opposite to preventing abortions and pregnancy. And whatever happened to the parents teaching this to the kids?

[Dr. Shane]

Sex is throughout our culture. It is in popular music and entertainment. One of the biggest exports from the US is music and entertainment. So what we see, the world is seeing - translated into their native languages. Unless the parents are actively raising their children with a set of moral standards, they will have sex. And if the parents are raising their children with moral standards, nothing they will hear or see in sex education is going to cause them to have sex any earlier.

Sex education is done differently depending upon where and who is doing it. Anything is better than nothing. That said, I prefer sex education emphasize abstinence and to include the emotional, as well as the physical consequences of having sex. Birth control methods need to be taught but in areas with heavy Catholic influence, they often are not. Kids are using condoms wrong. Kids are practicing coitus interruptus wrong. Some girls actually believe if they go to the bathroom after sex it will keep them from becoming pregnant. Some believe they have to have sex various times to get pregnant. There is all kinds of misinformation in the world where there is no sex education.

[Overaged]

Sex education is done differently depending upon where and who is doing it. Anything is better than nothing.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

[bobbie]

I side with Nic.

I can't see much difference between restrictions and banning because don't most bans allow exceptions for rape, incest, and life of the mother?

I can't see much sense in allowing abortions all the way to the twelth week of gestation,then after the twelth week you can kill this same person.

[Dr. Shane]

Nations that ban abortions have a huge black market abortion industry. So they are not stopping all abortion simply by banning it. That is a truth we have to accept when discussing the issue. If banning abortion would stop it, then I would be all for banning it. But it doesn't. To think it does is to simply ignore reality. I am one that prefers to live in reality and deal with it.

Nations that allow abortion up to 12 weeks have virtually no black market for abortion. Nations like The Netherlands and Germany have incredibly low rates of abortion. If we are really interested in reducing abortions, we need to look at what these nations are doing and understand why it is working for them.

[doug yowell]

Nations that allow abortion up to 12 weeks have virtually no black market for abortion. Nations like The Netherlands and Germany have incredibly low rates of abortion. If we are really interested in reducing abortions, we need to look at what these nations are doing and understand why it is working for them.

Uh...since almost 90% of abortions are done in the first 8 weeks,nations that allow abortion up to 12 weeks have no need of a black market!! Helllllllo!!Every one's already been aborted!!

[Dr. Shane]

Yet, those same nations have much lower abortion rates than nations that have banned abortion.

If we want to reduce abortions, we need to do what works. Allowing restricted abortions prior to 12 weeks completely wipes out black market abortion services. That is a good thing. But that isn't the answer all by itself.

We need a mandatory 24-hour waiting period.

We need mandatory pre-abortion counseling.

We need to ban public funding of abortion.

We need to prohibit private insurance from paying for abortion except in cases of rape, incest and to save the mother's life.

We need to fund Crisis Pregnancy Centers.

We need sex education in our schools.

We need to make birth control available and affordable.

We need public policy to encourage adoption.

All of these things, when combined, reduce the abortion rate. That is our goal. Banning abortion creates a black market. It discourages pregnant women from going to a Crisis Pregnancy Center. It discourages women from seeking counseling. Everything must be done in secrecy. A scared, pregnant girl must make a decision - often times with only her boyfriend pushing her to abort.

[doug yowell]

Yet, those same nations have much lower abortion rates than nations that have banned abortion.

If we want to reduce abortions, we need to do what works. Allowing restricted abortions prior to 12 weeks completely wipes out black market abortion services. That is a good thing. But that isn't the answer all by itself.

.

.

That's absolute nonsense. Common sense and history tell us that when something is restricted a black market is created to provide for that restriction. Immigration is a perfect example. We have a restricted number of immigrants that are legally permitted. We get coyotes to fill the void. States that have some of the restrictions you've mentioned will drive their residents to other states to get their abortions.Most states that had abortion restrictions prior to Roe v. Wade had a black market for abortion. Abortion proponents consistently oppose any restrictions by pointing to the black market those restrictions will create.

[Dr. Shane]

Many abortion proponents do oppose any and all restrictions on them. That is true. However that doesn't change the fact that restrictions on abortions work. Look at The Netherlands. Look at Germany. Banning abortion has shown that it doesn't work. We know that. Mexico has a higher abortion rate than the US and the US practically has abortion-on-demand.

So if banning abortion doesn't work, we need to look at what does. Instead of telling ourselves what makes common sense and what doesn't, we need only look at the facts and make decisions on facts. The facts are that banning abortions creates a black market and stops women from getting the counseling they need to make educated decisions. The result is a higher abortion rate.

I love the unborn too much to support a ban on abortion. I want to see the abortion rate decrease - not increase. That is why I support what works and reject failed policies that don't work. Let's support legal abortion with restrictions and reject abortion bans. Let's save the lives of the unborn.

[Nic Samojluk]

I don't believe there is a vast world-wide conspiracy.

[Nic Samojluk]

Considering all of the above, I believe that the data we have from the U.S. and from other countries cannot be relied upon for drawing trustworthy conclusions or valid comparisons. The data seems to be incomplete, inaccurate, and unreliable. Besides, we have the problem I mentioned before: The conflict of interest derived from the fact that the main provider of statistics, the Alan Guttmacher Institute, is an agency created by the main provider of abortion, an organization bound to benefit from the legalization of abortion.

[Nic Samojluk]

I would not call it a conspiracy, but there's a pretty clear Eugenics agenda among the elite classes of the "ultra-educated".

"In order to stabilize world population, we must eliminate 350,000 people per day. It is a horrible thing to say, but it is just as bad not to say it."

J. Cousteau, 1991 explorer and UNESCO courier

"We must speak more clearly about sexuality, contraception, about abortion, about values that control population, because the ecological crisis, in short, is the population crisis. Cut the population by 90% and there aren't enough people left to do a great deal of ecological damage."

Mikhail Gorbachev

"Childbearing should be a punishable crime against society, unless the parents hold a government license. All potential parents should be required to use contraceptive chemicals, the government issuing antidotes to citizens chosen for childbearing."

David Brower, first Executive Director of the Sierra Club

So, whether you are buying it or not... there's a clear depopulation agenda that abortion clearly ties into.

Thank you for the valuable information you have provided.

[Nic Samojluk]

The alleged conspiracy isn't whether or not there are pro-abortion and pro-eugenics forces at work. Clearly there are. They operate out in the open. No conspiracy there. The alleged conspiracy is that behind the scenes they are fraudulently playing with statistics to support their cause.

Abortion statistics in nations where abortions are illegal are put together based on the number of abortion-related complications of women that are admitted to hospitals and clinics for. Scientific research has been done be various government groups, like a nation's department or ministry of health, in order to substantiate if the abortion calculations are correct. In Argentina, the "guess" was that 500,000 illegal abortions were being performed each year. When the government's Ministry of Health, did an extensive scientific study they found the actual number to be no less than 425,000 and no greater than 650,000. Thus the original "guess" of 500,000 was pretty accurate.

That doesn't come as a surprise to those that have studied statistics. When the methodology is correct, statistics are amazingly accurate. There were erring, published, abortion statistics in Mexico where the estimated number of abortions was 20 times higher than the actual number. The problem was in the methodology and it was discovered. No conspiracy. These numbers come from simple, or perhaps complex for some of us, mathematics.

I will give a quick example of bad methodology. In a given state let's say we have 40% registered Republicans, 35% registered Democrats and 25% independents. A poll is done and it is announced the Democrat in a given race has a 10 point lead. Looking into the poll sample it is discovered that of 1,000 people polled, 10% were Republicans, 50% were Democrats and 40% independents.

When Dr. Bernard Nathanson’s organization was supplying inflated statistics to the media back in the 1970 in order to convince Americans that it would be beneficial to legalize abortion, nobody wanted to believe that these false statistics were based on a conspiracy.

The history is being repeated. The data is being manipulated by the main provider of abortion statistics, the AGI, which is an agency created by Planned Parenthood, and most Americans and the entire world is being deceived again en masse by the agency which managed to monopolize the handling of abortion statistics. I would never trust the tobacco industry for the statistics connected with the incidence of cancer and smoking. Why should I trust the AGI and the PP regarding the incidence of abortion?

[Nic Samojluk]

I side with Nic.

I can't see much difference between restrictions and banning because don't most bans allow exceptions for rape, incest, and life of the mother?

I can't see much sense in allowing abortions all the way to the twelth week of gestation,then after the twelth week you can kill this same person.

Thanks, Bobbie!

[Nic Samojluk]

Nations that ban abortions have a huge black market abortion industry. So they are not stopping all abortion simply by banning it. That is a truth we have to accept when discussing the issue. If banning abortion would stop it, then I would be all for banning it. But it doesn't. To think it does is to simply ignore reality. I am one that prefers to live in reality and deal with it.

Nations that allow abortion up to 12 weeks have virtually no black market for abortion. Nations like The Netherlands and Germany have incredibly low rates of abortion. If we are really interested in reducing abortions, we need to look at what these nations are doing and understand why it is working for them.

The main provider of abortion statistics does admit that the data coming from other countries is incomplete and based on assumptions and estimates. Read my previous postings where I cite from the comments made by the Alan Guttmacher Institute.

[Nic Samojluk]

Nations like The Netherlands and Germany have incredibly low rates of abortion.

[Nic Samojluk]

Banning abortion has shown that it doesn't work. We know that. Mexico has a higher abortion rate than the US and the US practically has abortion-on-demand.

[Dr. Shane]

We can look at our own American experience to determine whether your theory is valid.

First, it isn't my theory. It is an observation which is quantifiable, demonstrable and repeatable.

Second, The American experience is irrelevant because, for the most part, abortion-on-demand is allowed in America. What we are talking about is restricted abortion. If we want to talk about restricted abortion, we need to look at nations and states that actually restrict it.

[Dr. Shane]

Admissions Made by the Alan Guttmacher Institute

Quote:

Abortion data are generally collected by government agencies, which compile statistics from health facilities and physicians that perform abortions...

Countries with Highly Restrictive Laws

Official statistics on illegal abortions are usually not available for countries with restrictive laws. For regional and worldwide estimates, we used WHO's estimates of the number of abortions occurring in areas where abortion is highly restricted, and of the number of unsafe abortions occurring in areas where abortion is legally permitted but where significant numbers are performed under illegal conditions...

Source:

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html

Wait a minute!!! This Alan Guttmacher Institute Conspiracy is starting to fall apart. AGI is saying they use statistics gathered by the WHO (World Health Organization) and "government agencies". So where is the conspiracy? Nic would have us believe that the Alan Guttmacher Institute is collecting the data, falsifying it and feeding it to government organizations. That isn't what is happening at all. Government organizations are collecting the data and providing it to the Alan Guttmacher Institute. No conspiracy here folks. What we see is what there is.