What I Learned About Abortion & the Adventist Church

[bobbie]

I don't believe in allowing the killing of preborn babies in order to reduce abortion.

Ideas such as funding Crisis Pregnancy Centers,providing sex education in our schools,making birth control available and affordable,and a public policy to encourage adoption can be put into practice in addition to disallowing the murder of the unborn.

[doug yowell]

I don't believe in allowing the killing of preborn babies in order to reduce abortion.

Ideas such as funding Crisis Pregnancy Centers,providing sex education in our schools,making birth control available and affordable,and a public policy to encourage adoption can be put into practice in addition to disallowing the murder of the unborn.

Reverting to reason and common sense shows just how desperate your argument has become, bobbie!

[Dr. Shane]

What happens when a nation places a ban on abortion is that scared women with an unplanned pregnancy will not go to a Crisis Pregnancy Center because they must keep their pregnancy a secret. If people find out they are pregnant, they lose their option of an illegal abortion. So they tell no one except their lover. The lover pushes them to get an illegal abortion. The unborn child is snuffed out without anyone knowing but the two lovers and the guilty doctor.

However when the same situation happens in a nation where abortion is legal but restricted the scared girl is more likely to go to a Crisis Pregnancy Center. There at the CPC she learns about all her options and is often times shown an ultra-sound of her baby. Even if she doesn't go to a CPC, she must get mandatory pre-abortion counseling and wait out a 24 or 48 hour waiting period. This is a huge contrast to the boyfriend pushing her to get an illegal abortion and the girl going into it scared and not knowing her options or risks.

The data tells us it works. Restricting abortion lowers the abortion rate while banning abortion increases the abortion rate. Now we can cry that the data doesn't make sense (which I think it does) and we can cry that there is a vast global conspiracy that all the power and wealth of the Catholic church is unable to expose OR we can accept the data for what it tells us and act accordingly.

[Nic Samojluk]

If we want to talk about restricted abortion, we need to look at nations and states that actually restrict it.

Sure we can look, provided we do not forget what the main provider of those statistics has already admitted: that those statistics are incomplete and based on estimates. Besides, we should not forget that the provider of those statistics has a conflict of interest.

Would you rely on statistics provided by drug dealers about drug sale and consumption? Can we rely on statistics provided by abortion providers in countries where abortion is illegal? Please, use some common sense!

I do not rely on the tobacco industry for statistics connected with the incidence of smoking and cancer. Why should we rely on statistics provided by AGI? You have never given me a good answer for this objection of mine! Is there a reason for your silence on this?

[Nic Samojluk]

AGI is saying they use statistics gathered by the WHO (World Health Organization) and "government agencies".

[Nic Samojluk]

I don't believe in allowing the killing of preborn babies in order to reduce abortion.

Ideas such as funding Crisis Pregnancy Centers,providing sex education in our schools,making birth control available and affordable,and a public policy to encourage adoption can be put into practice in addition to disallowing the murder of the unborn.

I can say a hearty AMEN to that. thanks!

[bobbie]

I don't have any faith in these statistics, either.

[Nic Samojluk]

What happens when a nation places a ban on abortion is that scared women with an unplanned pregnancy will not go to a Crisis Pregnancy Center because they must keep their pregnancy a secret.

[Nic Samojluk]

I don't have any faith in these statistics, either.

We need more pro-lifers like you! Thanks!

[Dr. Shane]

it is evident that all the evidence in the world will not convince you that your assumption is based on incomplete, unverifiable, inaccurate, and unreliable data.

Actually it is the evidence that has convinced me of the position I hold. Statistics are amazingly accurate with proper methodology. We cannot determine the exact number of abortions performed in nations where it is banned but we are able to determine an approximate number with amazing accuracy. A scientific study in Argentina by its Ministry of Health determined that no less than 425,000 and no more than 650,000 abortions are performed each year. That is an approximate number but very reliable.

I am a recovered drug addict myself. I have been in a 12 Step program for 25 years. Those that do not understand the different dynamics between why an addict uses drugs and why a scared girl gets an abortion should really just disqualify themselves from the conversation and not give opinions on subjects they are completely ignorant about.

[Dr. Shane]

Laws against drug use are set up to prevent NON-ADDICTS from using drugs. And those laws work. If drugs were made legal, many more people would use them.

Laws against drug use are not set up to stop addicts from using drugs. Drug addicts are going to use drugs and there is no law that is going to stop them. The purpose of the law is to prevent non-addicts from becoming addicts. Once a person becomes an addict society's reaction must become one that encourages the person to get treatment for the addiction.

A scared, pregnant girl is in the same class as a drug addict. No law is going to stop her from getting an abortion. Instead of trying to stop her from having an abortion by banning the procedure, the most effective way to prevent the abortion is to make her jump through hoops first which will give her information about her other options and try to convince her not to abort. It is much like putting a drug addict in treatment. Many girls will decide against abortion given good information - some will not. Likewise, many addicts will decide to embrace recovery - but some will not.

Banning abortion doesn't stop a scared girl from getting one. Banning drugs doesn't stop an addict from using them. That is the Catholic mindset. Catholics want to force their will on others. Protestants seek to win the heart.

I am a Protestant. I am not a Catholic.

[Nic Samojluk]

Actually it is the evidence that has convinced me of the position I hold. Statistics are amazingly accurate with proper methodology.

[Dr. Shane]

You may conclude that I have:

a) got a girl pregnant that was considering or had an abortion.

had family members that considered or had an abortion

c) worked in a Crisis Pregnancy Center with scared girls seeking counseling

d) had had close friends that considered or had an abortion.

Really you can conclude any of a number of things.

Regarding statistics, there is no way we can know exactly how many illegal abortions are performed. However, since that is not our objective we need not give up in despair. We certainly do not need to embrace the Catholic extremes of banning abortion completely. Our objective is to calculate an approximate number of illegal abortions performed. Praise God from Whom all blessings flow we can do that. Based on that approximate number we can see that restricting abortion reduces the number of abortions performed more than banning abortion. Praise God! We need not side with the Pope on this issue.

Restrict abortion - that works! Banning abortion - that doesn't work. The Pope is wrong. The Adventists are right. Why doesn't that surprise me?

[bobbie]

I'm a protestant who believes in the rule of law. That is not a Catholic belief. It is a Christian one.

Romans 13 tells us how we are to relate to our civil government and lawmakers. We are to obey them because they are really God's servants doing His work.

The last six commandments are the perview of civil governments to use to make laws and do not force anyone's consciences.

Our Adventist forefathers agreed with their government when it outlawed abortion in their day.

Many Evangelical Christians also believe in ending abortion in our day.

[Dr. Shane]

Many Evangelical Christian follow Rome quite closely. They are indeed daughters of their harlot mother. The Adventist church follows the Bible and the Bible only.

What concerns me most is saving lives. The statistics tell us, study after study, that nations which ban abortion have high abortion rates. The ban does not impact the number of abortions being performed. So those siding with Rome must attack the statistics. Their entire argument rests on a grand, worldwide conspiracy which has various governments and the World Health Organization falsifying statistics in order to push a pro-abortion agenda forward.

[bobbie]

Our own Adventist pioneers wer not following Rome. They spoke out against abortion and had nothing negative to say about our government's ban of abortion.

[SivartM]

Many Evangelical Christian follow Rome quite closely. They are indeed daughters of their harlot mother. The Adventist church follows the Bible and the Bible only.

Yeah, well they say that they follow the Bible and the Bible only too. Since we follow Rome closely in some areas (clergy vs. laity, for example), I wouldn't get too confident in our religious purity.

[Nic Samojluk]

What happens when a nation places a ban on abortion is that scared women with an unplanned pregnancy will not go to a Crisis Pregnancy Center because they must keep their pregnancy a secret.

[karl]

What happens when a nation places a ban on abortion is that scared women with an unplanned pregnancy will not go to a Crisis Pregnancy Center because they must keep their pregnancy a secret.

Why must they keep their pregnancy a secret? It is not illegal to get pregnant.

However, if abortion were banned, it would be illegal to kill babies. Are you suggesting pregnant mothers would not go to a crisis pregnancy center because they plan to kill their babies? I would agree with that conclusion, but do not see any support for legalized abortion in it.

Legalized abortion and crisis pregnancy centers seem like mutually exclusive pursuits. Either go get help keeping the baby or find someone who will help you kill the baby. I don't see any fence-riding potential here. It's one or the other.

[Dr. Shane]

We need to weigh the evidence for and against the legalization of all criminal activity. What works for abortion should work for the use of drugs, for rape, and for the sexual abuse of children.

The evidence has been examined. The only thing that makes something criminal is civil law. Not all behavior is the same. Banning some behavior works. Banning other behavior does not work. The evidence from all across the globe shows us that banning abortion doesn't work. Restricting abortion does.

[Dr. Shane]

Why must they keep their pregnancy a secret? It is not illegal to get pregnant.

If they tell someone they are pregnant and a week later they are no longer pregnant, they would be in trouble. Banning abortion means a girl with a crisis pregnancy must not tell anyone she is pregnant. To do so would mean giving up her option of an illegal abortion.

In a nation like Germany or Norway, she can tell people. She can talk to her parents, her pastor, her friends or seek professional counseling. After talking to all these people, the option of abortion remains open for her. That in itself makes it more likely that she will consult various people and be persuaded not to have the abortion.

[Nic Samojluk]

Actually it is the evidence that has convinced me of the position I hold. Statistics are amazingly accurate with proper methodology.

[Nic Samojluk]

Laws against drug use are set up to prevent NON-ADDICTS from using drugs. And those laws work. If drugs were made legal, many more people would use them.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Nic, you keep criticizing Shane for using biased statistics. You do the same thing to bolster your own case..

In addition you keep comparing apples and oranges.

Most females younger than ten or eleven cannot get pregnant anyhow.

This shows how little you know..

[Nic Samojluk]

You may conclude that I have:

a) got a girl pregnant that was considering or had an abortion.

had family members that considered or had an abortion

c) worked in a Crisis Pregnancy Center with scared girls seeking counseling

d) had had close friends that considered or had an abortion.