Poll: 80% of Adventists still uncertain of when to clap

[Gail]

Check out Seth Pierce's blog at:

http://sethoutlook.wordpress.com

Quote:

We’ve all been there. On a rare Sabbath morning a competent musician delivers an awe-inspiring rendition of a spiritual song ushering the congregation into the presence of God. And upon their conclusion the congregation enters into the valley of wide-eyed uncertainty and indecision.

To clap or not to clap? THAT is the question.

Gratitude is not something commonly expressed in Adventist congregations. Taking a dutiful approach to ministry it is expected that you share your gifts on demand because God—or the Nominating Committee—says so. Your thanks is the warm feeling produced by hours of last minute frenetic practice mixed with anxiety percolating in the pit of your stomach.

“I just freeze up” said one rural church member after a traveling musician stopped on their way through town for church. “I was so moved inside, yet my outside was paralyzed. I heard one or two people give a couple token claps, but when I didn’t hear a third or fourth join in I… I just couldn’t go through with it.”

He went on to say that their previous pastor once vigorously clapped after a performance and three months later found himself in a new district. “They can’t fire me as a church member for clapping” added the church member. Then ominously concluded with “…but they have other ways of making you comply.” I tried to find out who “they” were but he only shook his head.

I have attempted more interviews with indecisive clappers but they were as reluctant with their speech as they were with their hands. One stalwart defender of traditional church, however, did step up to the challenge and clarified, “It’s not that I don’t appreciate musicians, it’s just that clapping worships the person not God. I prefer a hearty amen to clapping.” When asked if he ever said louder “amens” for some performances than others he made no reply.

One pro-clapper came forward and suggested Psalm 47 as supporting the clapping platform. The text says, “O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph” [Psalm 47:1, KJV]. “So you see, it’s a biblical MANDATE that we clap” she said triumphantly.

Since she was a women—known for a hermeneutics of sentimentalism and not cold logic—we confirmed this position with a man and it is indeed true that this is a “proof-text” in the pro-clapping camp.

As I’ve surveyed other Midwestern churches, another member offered an answer to the Psalm 47 conundrum via a website he had googled. The site explains that the “fact that hand clapping was commanded in Old Testament worship does not authorize it in New Testament worship any more than the fact that the burning of incense and the offering of animal sacrifices in Old Testament worship gives authority for them in New Testament worship” [http://www.tftw2.org/Tracts/handclapping.html].

Excited by this revelation I quickly asked what anti-type fulfilled the practice of clapping in the New Testament? The obvious answer is “the cross” stated the first elder of the no-clap congregation. He stated “Jesus’ hands were nailed making it impossible to clap.”

Touché.

However one impertinent youth piped up that in Ellen White’s six volume biography written by her grandson she states, at a Campmeeting, “I was stopped several times with clapping of hands and stomping of feet. I never had a more signal victory” [Arthur L. White, Ellen G. White: The Lonely Years (Washington D.C.: Review and Herald Pub. Assn., 1984,) vol. 3, p. 46.]. This proved an horrific turn of events for the first elder who said he knew nothing of that quote and since it was in a biography it most likely fell under the category of hearsay from a grandson with a faulty memory.

Further complicating the issue is Pope Benedict the XVI’s statement in The Spirit of Liturgy where he states, “Whenever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of the liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.” [p. 198]. This sets up a tricky dynamic for those who agree with traditional worship practices but also hold to the traditional position of disagreeing with whatever the Pope says.

The issue doesn’t appear to have any sign of abating.

Until then we are forced to endure the bold claps of the few, the timid claps of the indecisive, and the scowls of those whose hands rest firmly in the lap during service—save when for reasons unexplained waves of applause make their way through church service once or twice a year. Factors currently believed to contribute to widespread clapping are persistent efforts of the 10% who do know when to clap influencing the 10% waiting for the first 10% to clap, the visible clapping of leaders on the platform, and verbal cues from the pastor such as “let us clap.”

[Gail]

I never would have guessed that the Cross was the answer to this question as well! But I guess it really DOES include all sin!

[Gail]

I find his titles intriguing:

State of the Dead: Adventism's Sexiest Doctrine

Theological Disorders: aka "Lazy Makes Crazy"

Top 10 Songs not to play at a Funeral (Gail- I'd agree with "Another One Bites the Dust"!)

How you take this is going to depend on whether you find this humour degrading or whether you are able to laugh at yourself. If you think the above article is sacreligious, don't bother reading more.

To me, I would think this mindset common in young people or just those who have a hard time figuring out the Adventist sub-culture.

[Woody]

I've been to some hapless clap-less churches ... and they are hope-less.

[Jeannieb43]

I prefer attending "high church" services, where the music is traditional, classical, and rather formal; and where the minister preaches a "serious" sermon without histrionics. Sometimes in that service there are some people [visitors, perhaps] who break out in applause after the choir anthem, or after a solo musical number.

Our pastor once announced a rule of thumb regarding applause in a high church service:

It's always appropriate to applaud after a musical number performed by children -- whether in a small group or large children's choir.

Following the adult choir's performance of the morning anthem, the only appropriate response is "Amen."

It's never appropriate to applaud after the pastor's sermon; the best response is a humble, prayerful silence.

If the organist plays a bombastic postlude following the closing choir response, then and only then is it appropriate to applaud for the musician's performance.

[Liz]

Who is Seth Pierce? He is hysterical!! Thanks for telling us about his blog. So far my personal favorite is the baptism one, where you hold them down with one foot and swish them around to get all the sin off.

[abelisle]

If clapping is considered a "no-no" what about dancing naked? (Okay, not completely naked "linen ephod") Ask King David.

Alex (does the Spirit still move people?)

[Woody]

Yes Alex. We do need to allow the Spirit to move.

[olger]

I have been applauded numerous times (and still don't like it). I have also been vigorously boooo'd by redwood - I don't mind. Liberals are that way...

Can I get an A-men !!

g

[doug yowell]

I have been applauded numerous times (and still don't like it). I have also been vigorously boooo'd by redwood - I don't mind. Liberals are that way...

Can I get an A-men !!

g

From Redwood??

[Dr. Shane]

What I am unsure about is who is going to judge me when I clap.

[nuff sed]

I don't like clapping in church. My church of 3000 does it regularly. If "you" don't like it..don't do it!...What I particularly don't like is the following:Jeanie b43 said, "If the organist plays a bombastic postlude following the closing choir response, then and only then is it appropriate to applaud for the musician's performance." To this I totally disagree. IMO Loud music at the end of a particularly spiritual sermon totally destroys the mood and intent of the presentation. Also IMO it is just the musician showing off... Musicians should be attuned to the presentation and judge the final 'performance' accordingly. I talked to one talented organist about the way I feel about it and he told me in no uncertain terms that if he couldn't "end up'with a bang" ( my words, not his exact ones) he wouldn't be the organist.................So.........is the postlude there to enhance the spirit of worship or for the organist to do the "Big Bang, Hallelujah it's over and we can go home" presentation? Let the stones fly.......'nuff sed

[olger]

Yes indeed.

g

[olger]

But they clap at Willow Creek, so it MUST be ok !!

And Saddleback,

og out

[SivartM]

I think that we should clap for everything, including the scripture reading, prayers, and offering. Just to be fair.

[Woody]

But they clap at Willow Creek, so it MUST be ok !!

And Saddleback,

og out

When I attended worship at Willow Creek ... I didn't think the clapping was out of line.

[Woody]

If we can't argue about clapping, than what are we here for???!!!

The purpose of being here CoA ... is to argue about most ANYthing and EVERYthing. :)

[lazarus]

I love this video. Check it out.

http://www.sermonspice.com/product/20207/

[Guest]

I don't like clapping in church. My church of 3000 does it regularly. If "you" don't like it..don't do it!...What I particularly don't like is the following:Jeanie b43 said, "If the organist plays a bombastic postlude following the closing choir response, then and only then is it appropriate to applaud for the musician's performance." To this I totally disagree. IMO Loud music at the end of a particularly spiritual sermon totally destroys the mood and intent of the presentation. Also IMO it is just the musician showing off... Musicians should be attuned to the presentation and judge the final 'performance' accordingly. I talked to one talented organist about the way I feel about it and he told me in no uncertain terms that if he couldn't "end up'with a bang" ( my words, not his exact ones) he wouldn't be the organist.................So.........is the postlude there to enhance the spirit of worship or for the organist to do the "Big Bang, Hallelujah it's over and we can go home" presentation? Let the stones fly.......'nuff sed

Amen!

[aldona]

I LOVE that blog - thank you for sharing!

If only I was still the church bulletin editor, I would shamelessly plagiarize so much of their material for the edification and enjoyment of the church members.

AJ

[Liz]

Didn't we used to have a clapping smilie? What happened to it? That video clip was too funny!!

[GreatLakesGramma]

I agree totally with 'nuff sed. Church is for worshiping the Lord, not for being entertained, or for showing off talents and expecting recognition for it. And the organist or pianist's postlude should not destroy the mood of the service, nor should it be applauded.

We use Amens at our church to show appreciation for particularly moving or meaningful music or messages.

[Tom Wetmore]

I alternate my church attendance between two different clapping churches. I used the word different since they are different in so many ways and there is clapping in both for different things.

My home church has a traditional high church service with classical and traditional music, usually quite sober and very professionally done. There is almost always clapping for the organist's postlude solo. And we always clap after a baptism. That came about after one of our associate pastors wondered why we didn't celebrate a baptism with much rejoicing as the angels in heaven do over one sinner that repents. She thought clapping would be the same sort of "great rejoicing" as a congregation, sort of echoing heaven. So at the very next baptism she did, I was the first to start clapping enthusiastically and everyone quickly joined in. I wasn't sure if it was just make me feel less alone or if it would continue in future baptisms. Well, now as soon as the dripping soul is brought up out of the water everyone spontaneously and vigorously claps.

The other church I go to is where my son is a member and it is not traditional. I call it happy church. During praise time people routinely stand up and clap to the music, sway and raise holy hands to the Lord. There is even a praise dance team that adds wonderful kinetic and visual energy to the praise team's music. They also clap for baptisms. And people typically stand up and gather around close to the baptismal pool (it is a real, albeit small, above ground pool sitting right in the middle of the center aisle) to pray and clap and hug the dripping wet person. But I don't recall much clapping at the end of a service. Maybe its because they don't have a huge expensive pipe organ and professional organist as their minister of music like my home church.

I like that they both clap for baptisms. I don't think it is because anyone feels entertained by seeing a person get dunked or that the pastor does an exceptionally fine performance of doing the baptism. It just helps everyone be a part of the joy it brings to heaven. Happy little children clap and dance for joy all the time. Maybe that is really what clapping is all about anyway.

[phkrause]

I think this is one of those issue's where neither side is wrong.

pk

[Dr. Shane]

IMO Loud music at the end of a particularly spiritual sermon totally destroys the mood and intent of the presentation. Also IMO it is just the musician showing off... Musicians should be attuned to the presentation and judge the final 'performance' accordingly.

I think each church should have a 5-panel of judges. If the organist receives more than 8 out of 10 points for their performance, the congregation should be instructed to clap.