Poll: 80% of Adventists still uncertain of when to clap

[Woody]

I alternate my church attendance between two different clapping churches. I used the word different since they are different in so many ways and there is clapping in both for different things.

My home church has a traditional high church service with classical and traditional music, usually quite sober and very professionally done. There is almost always clapping for the organist's postlude solo. And we always clap after a baptism. That came about after one of our associate pastors wondered why we didn't celebrate a baptism with much rejoicing as the angels in heaven do over one sinner that repents. She thought clapping would be the same sort of "great rejoicing" as a congregation, sort of echoing heaven. So at the very next baptism she did, I was the first to start clapping enthusiastically and everyone quickly joined in. I wasn't sure if it was just make me feel less alone or if it would continue in future baptisms. Well, now as soon as the dripping soul is brought up out of the water everyone spontaneously and vigorously claps.

The other church I go to is where my son is a member and it is not traditional. I call it happy church. During praise time people routinely stand up and clap to the music, sway and raise holy hands to the Lord. There is even a praise dance team that adds wonderful kinetic and visual energy to the praise team's music. They also clap for baptisms. And people typically stand up and gather around close to the baptismal pool (it is a real, albeit small, above ground pool sitting right in the middle of the center aisle) to pray and clap and hug the dripping wet person. But I don't recall much clapping at the end of a service. Maybe its because they don't have a huge expensive pipe organ and professional organist as their minister of music like my home church.

I like that they both clap for baptisms. I don't think it is because anyone feels entertained by seeing a person get dunked or that the pastor does an exceptionally fine performance of doing the baptism. It just helps everyone be a part of the joy it brings to heaven. Happy little children clap and dance for joy all the time. Maybe that is really what clapping is all about anyway.

PRAISE GOD

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: 'nuff sed

IMO Loud music at the end of a particularly spiritual sermon totally destroys the mood and intent of the presentation. Also IMO it is just the musician showing off... Musicians should be attuned to the presentation and judge the final 'performance' accordingly.

I think each church should have a 5-panel of judges. If the organist receives more than 8 out of 10 points for their performance, the congregation should be instructed to clap.

Sort of like an "Adventists Got Talent" program?

[karl]

IMO Loud music at the end of a particularly spiritual sermon totally destroys the mood and intent of the presentation.

As a musician, I believe it is imperative that we work very hard at having the music portion of worship enhance the spoken word. The lyrics of any song done in church should complement the topic of the sermon. It is better to have no music at all than to have music which distracts from the spoken Word. Especially we should avoid any kind of presentation which draws the attention away from Christ to a performance.

No style of music has a corner on egocentric musicians. A classical presentation can be just as much a performance as bluegrass.

[TWNolan]

There is even a praise dance team that adds wonderful kinetic and visual energy to the praise team's music. They also clap for baptisms.

IMO, that is a little too much

[Tom Wetmore]

Which? The congregation clapping at a baptism or the praise dancers?

[TWNolan]

sorry... the dancers

[aldona]

Quote:

IMO Loud music at the end of a particularly spiritual sermon totally destroys the mood and intent of the presentation. Also IMO it is just the musician showing off...

I play the piano. Music is not my day job, but it is my main passion outside of work. I had lessons from the age of 5 and I got quite deep into classical music, which I still love today, and which moves me like no other kind of music.

But I didn't touch the piano for about 10-15 years at one stage. One of the reasons was that I got fed up with all the times when I would put my heart and soul into a performance (not easy for me as I am naturally a shy person and used to get stage fright quite badly), only to have the amateur music critics put the word around that I was "showing off".

Even now, my best playing is done when nobody else except God is listening. There is "another place" that a musician goes when they are really feeling the music and getting into it, and most folks just don't understand. "Showing off" is when you have a few friends around at a party and you try to play a few bars of "Flight of the Bumblebee" for a laugh. To get in front of an audience and really try to "live" the music requires a completely different mindset - if you approach it in "show off" mode you will fail miserably.

So all you armchair critics who automatically accuse musicians of "showing off" when they put in a passionate performance - go have music lessons and then come and show us how you can do a better job.

AJ

[Bravus]

Yep.

Guess we *still* haven't got past confusing our tastes with God's tastes...

[Gerr]

If clapping is considered a "no-no" what about dancing naked? (Okay, not completely naked "linen ephod") Ask King David.

Alex (does the Spirit still move people?)

When David danced, he did so in praise of the Lord. When you clap, do you clap to praise the Lord? or praise the performer?

[Gerr]

I have been applauded numerous times (and still don't like it). I have also been vigorously boooo'd by redwood - I don't mind. Liberals are that way...

Can I get an A-men !!

g

Soooooooooo, what's the difference between a clap and an amen?

[Gerr]

I don't like clapping in church. My church of 3000 does it regularly. If "you" don't like it..don't do it!...What I particularly don't like is the following:Jeanie b43 said, "If the organist plays a bombastic postlude following the closing choir response, then and only then is it appropriate to applaud for the musician's performance." To this I totally disagree. IMO Loud music at the end of a particularly spiritual sermon totally destroys the mood and intent of the presentation. Also IMO it is just the musician showing off... Musicians should be attuned to the presentation and judge the final 'performance' accordingly. I talked to one talented organist about the way I feel about it and he told me in no uncertain terms that if he couldn't "end up'with a bang" ( my words, not his exact ones) he wouldn't be the organist.................So.........is the postlude there to enhance the spirit of worship or for the organist to do the "Big Bang, Hallelujah it's over and we can go home" presentation? Let the stones fly.......'nuff sed

"Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!" Ps 150:5 ESV.

If the "Big Bang" is the organist's way of praising God, then who are we to object?

[SivartM]

I love this video. Check it out.

http://www.sermonspice.com/product/20207/

That's a hilarious video...

And especially good for, say, people who clap and shout and raise their hands ever. Which is not me.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: olger

I have been applauded numerous times (and still don't like it). I have also been vigorously boooo'd by redwood - I don't mind. Liberals are that way...

Can I get an A-men !!

g

Soooooooooo, what's the difference between a clap and an amen?

Exactly!! Ther is no difference. An "Amen!" serves the same purpose of expressing apprecation, agreement or affirmation of that has been said, sung or performed. Clapping is no more a praise of the performer than a loud chorus of "Amen!"

[Tom Wetmore]

[Tom Wetmore]

Defintely different. And certainly not a gift of mine...

But if you see it you can appreciate its value to some and that it is done very tastefully. Most often it involves waving colorful banners, flags and streamers to the music. It is not unlike having lighting displays set to the music. It adds a visual depth to the music.

Some us are much more visual learners than auditory learners so this does reinforce the message of the music. And there are kinetic learners that absorb meaning through physical participation and movement. They dance to the music. I stumble if I try.

The back story of the woman that leads the dance praise team is that she was a new member (no Adventist background) that wanted to participate in the worship service but felt very inadequate with no musical, teaching and preaching talents. But she could dance, so she did. And she is very much a beautiful and vital part of the service.

[phkrause]

Exactly!! Ther is no difference. An "Amen!" serves the same purpose of expressing apprecation, agreement or affirmation of that has been said, sung or performed. Clapping is no more a praise of the performer than a loud chorus of "Amen!"

I'll be in agreement with you only if you can answer this question, Could you give me your definition of the word "Amen" and when and why its used? Compared to what clapping means and when and why its used? When I say that I'll agree with you its really based on you saying there is no difference between saying Amen and clapping. See I think that clapping and Amen are not interchangeable! As far as clapping in church I have no problem with that. I do believe that "Amen" has a lot more meaning than clapping, but that's just my opinion.

pk

[Woody]

Quote:

Soooooooooo, what's the difference between a clap and an amen?

Good question Gerry. This Sabbath was one of the rare Sabbath's that I attended church. As always ... I was greatly moved. During much of the service ... I thought of this thread. I explored my emotions. Here is my report:

During the share and prayer time: I wanted to clap in agreement and support of some of the comments made and the prayers lifted up to God.

I wanted to clap for the blessing that I received by the Youth Praise Team. I was moved.

I wanted to thank and show agreement and also to express that I was moved by the high quality Southern Gospel special music that was presented.

I wanted to clap in support of the those struggling with life and the testimonies they gave. I wanted them to know I cared and support them in their trials.

I wanted to clap when a small child gave a testimony and prayer request.

I wanted to clap when one of our elders did a superb job of preaching the sermon. When it was SO obvious he had spent HOURS of prepartion and hard work to put together such a powerful sermon with his own powerpoint.

Let it be known ... I am a shy person generally. I know some of you may not believe that. But it is true. I would most likely never say AMEN. It's not my nature. I'm saying it quietly. But I would never shout it out. Yet. I wanted for people to know I supported them. I wanted people to know I agree. I wanted them to know I was blessed. But what did I do? I sat on my HANDS. However ... if it was socially acceptable ... I would fully been able to CLAP. I wanted to CLAP. I needed to CLAP. But what did I do? NOTHING. Yes, I tried to get to some of the people (after church) that I wanted to express thanks and support to. But, when so many people stop you ... you can't always get to the ones you want. And it is kinda an unusual event for me to show up for church ... especially when my wife is not with me.

Anyways .... I do so wish I had been able to show my support/Amen with a clap. I think we could do much more with clapping. I think it can be very God focused and spiritual.

Just my 2 cents worth after thinking about it this Sabbath.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I agree with PK. Clapping after a performance is generally understood in our culture to be an expression of appreciation for the performance and the performer. The word "amen" by definition signifies an agreement with something that has been said, or in the case of a song, the message given through the song. The two are not synonymous.

I would not have a problem with clapping in church during a song service, in time with the music, or after a baptism or some special event, but I would never, ever want to be applauded after doing special music. When I used to sing, I would pray almost non-stop from the time I got up Sabbath morning until I got up to sing, that people would not be impressed with me or with my voice, and that nothing would draw their attention to me in any way, but that they would be moved only by the message I was trying to give them, and to feel what I felt. It was a hard job to sing with that goal in mind. But from the time I started praying that way before I sang, nobody ever complimented me on my voice or my singing, except for a few who had never heard me sing before, but a lot of people would tell me how moved they were or how much the message touched them.

[SivartM]

I think you should have clapped anyway. Who cares what the others think? Maybe they would have joined you.

Of course, since I'm too self-conscious to clap when nobody else is, I might be kind of hypocritical. :\

[SivartM]

I agree with PK. Clapping after a performance is generally understood in our culture to be an expression of appreciation for the performance and the performer. The word "amen" by definition signifies an agreement with something that has been said, or in the case of a song, the message given through the song. The two are not synonymous.

No, I think that "amen" is just the churchian euphemism for clapping. Most people will clap and then later compliment the person on whatever they did.

[GreatLakesGramma]

No, I think that "amen" is just the churchian euphemism for clapping. Most people will clap and then later compliment the person on whatever they did.

It may be used that way nowadays, but the actual meaning is "so be it." And I personally never say it unless that is what I mean.

Redwood, I suggest you write notes to the people who blessed you today in church. That would be much more meaningful and special to them than clapping in church would have been, because most people won't take the time to write to someone. Plus, they would know exactly what you appreciated about their message or the job they did. And they could keep the note for a long time, even look at it now and then if they feel discouraged or unappreciated.

[phkrause]

No, I think that "amen" is just the churchian euphemism for clapping. Most people will clap and then later compliment the person on whatever they did.

Actually from what I've heard from Hebrew scholars is that they used this "Amen" for exactly what GLG mentioned, "So Be It"! Which means a lot more than if after they made an agreement on something that they would have clapped. I don't believe at all that clapping would have meant the same thing. I don't believe that if you went into a Jewish Temple or synagogue that you will hear anyone clap, haven't been to one in awhile so not sure anymore.

pk

[GreatLakesGramma]

If you're implying I meant anything remotely resembling your replying post, I suggest you quit passing judgment on what other people say, based on your own biases.

Redwood said he didn't feel comfortable clapping, that he wanted to speak with those people who blessed him, but didn't get the chance. I suggested an alternate manner in which he could communicate the appreciation he wasn't able to show in person this morning. Nothing more, nothing less. So, butt out! From now on I'll communicate any such suggestions privately.

[Guest]

Amen sister! He's always doing that.

[Woody]

If you're implying I meant anything remotely resembling your replying post, I suggest you quit passing judgment on what other people say, based on your own biases.

Redwood said he didn't feel comfortable clapping, that he wanted to speak with those people who blessed him, but didn't get the chance. I suggested an alternate manner in which he could communicate the appreciation he wasn't able to show in person this morning. Nothing more, nothing less. So, butt out! From now on I'll communicate any such suggestions privately.

GLG ... your thoughts and suggestions were greatly appreciated. I think they were very wise. In fact ... I am going to do just that. But, I know that in the past ... I've had these same convictions and yet somehow failed to follow through. Clapping is something that someone can do easily to express themselves. I would have liked to have been able to do it. But, I will still make an effort to follow though on your suggestion. I think your idea is far better. But, I would like to do both.