Poll: 80% of Adventists still uncertain of when to clap

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

No, I think that "amen" is just the churchian euphemism for clapping. Most people will clap and then later compliment the person on whatever they did.

It may be used that way nowadays, but the actual meaning is "so be it." And I personally never say it unless that is what I mean.

Redwood, I suggest you write notes to the people who blessed you today in church. That would be much more meaningful and special to them than clapping in church would have been, because most people won't take the time to write to someone. Plus, they would know exactly what you appreciated about their message or the job they did. And they could keep the note for a long time, even look at it now and then if they feel discouraged or unappreciated.

What about clapping for a baptism? "There's more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over one special music Sabbath morning." Or something like that.

[Tom Wetmore]

I don't dispute the literal meaning of "Amen" or that it meant and was perhaps only used in that sense historically, either in Bbilcal times or at other points in Church history. What I am suggesting is that the way in which it is used currently is very much the same as clapping. Regardless of its literal meaning it serves as a very similar accolade.

[olger]

Don't neither.

og out

[Woody]

I don't dispute the literal meaning of "Amen" or that it meant and was perhaps only used in that sense historically, either in Bbilcal times or at other points in Church history. What I am suggesting is that the way in which it is used currently is very much the same as clapping. Regardless of its literal meaning it serves as a very similar accolade.

Good Points Tom. But then some folks would rather live back in the dark ages ... you know ... the 'olden days'.

[doug yowell]

I don't dispute the literal meaning of "Amen" or that it meant and was perhaps only used in that sense historically, either in Bbilcal times or at other points in Church history. What I am suggesting is that the way in which it is used currently is very much the same as clapping. Regardless of its literal meaning it serves as a very similar accolade.

Do you know if they used Amen (historically) in the secular setting? In other words, was there no difference between the secular response and the sacred response at that time? In our contemporary secular world hooting, whistling,and loud yelling are acceptable forms of showing appreciation on an equal footing with clapping. How do we strike a balance,or is there one, in determining what is appropriate to incorporate in the church?

[Woody]

I've been to Willow Creek. And I can vouch for them that they clap during the worship service. I hope this settles the matter.

[doug yowell]

I've been to Willow Creek. And I can vouch for them that they clap during the worship service. I hope this settles the matter.

Yep, that's good enough for me!

[GreatLakesGramma]

Do you know if they used Amen (historically) in the secular setting? In other words, was there no difference between the secular response and the sacred response at that time? In our contemporary secular world hooting, whistling,and loud yelling are acceptable forms of showing appreciation on an equal footing with clapping. How do we strike a balance,or is there one, in determining what is appropriate to incorporate in the church?

I doubt that there was anything sacred about the word in its original language. It was probably just an ordinary word good for any kind of agreement.

As for what is appropriate in the church, you have to consider the culture, not just the culture of the society as a whole, but of the region, and even the congregation itself. I remember one time a few years ago, one of our presidents, or someone representing our country, made a speech or a presentation in a foreign country, and made a gesture that has a positive meaning here, but was considered an obscene gesture there. You need to be sensitive to what things mean to different groups. There is nothing wrong with having different cultures in different churches, but its wrong to pass judgment on those whose culture is different than your own, or to try to force your own preference on a group of people who aren't comfortable with it.

[olger]

Then it's settled.

What's for supper?

[phkrause]

I doubt that there was anything sacred about the word in its original language. It was probably just an ordinary word good for any kind of agreement.

Well here are some interesting links to what the Jews original meaning for Amen are or how they use it.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/639038/jewish/Where-does-the-term-Amen-come-from.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/261102/jewish/The-Laws-of-Responding-Amen.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/111223/jewish/Benedictions.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/91119/jewish/The-Basic-Laws.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/514607/jewish/Answering-Amen.htm

pk

ps: will also try to contact Pastor Schesler (sp) down in Florida, he is a Jewish/Adventist pastor and or a rabbi for more info.

[doug yowell]

Thanks for the links, pk.According to what was posted there the Amen does not carry the same religious useage as clapping. At least the restrictions on interrupting seem to indicate that. That's just my initial take. Might be too hasty! No indication of whether or not it was commonly used in strictly secular settings.Got any more leads?

[Dr. Shane]

As a musician, I believe it is imperative that we work very hard at having the music portion of worship enhance the spoken word. The lyrics of any song done in church should complement the topic of the sermon. It is better to have no music at all than to have music which distracts from the spoken Word. Especially we should avoid any kind of presentation which draws the attention away from Christ to a performance.

No style of music has a corner on egocentric musicians. A classical presentation can be just as much a performance as bluegrass.

Although I still think a panel of 5 judges is a good idea to determine if a musical number deserves clapping.

[Dr. Shane]

I didn't touch the piano for about 10-15 years at one stage. One of the reasons was that I got fed up with all the times when I would put my heart and soul into a performance (not easy for me as I am naturally a shy person and used to get stage fright quite badly), only to have the amateur music critics put the word around that I was "showing off".

[Dr. Shane]

The word "amen" by definition signifies an agreement with something that has been said...

I like the African American tradition of hollaring out things like "preach it to them, brother" and "watch it now".

[Dr. Shane]

So all you armchair critics who automatically accuse musicians of "showing off"...

Is there a General-Conference approved method of flipping off the armchair critics?

[phkrause]

Thanks for the links, pk.According to what was posted there the Amen does not carry the same religious useage as clapping. At least the restrictions on interrupting seem to indicate that. That's just my initial take. Might be too hasty! No indication of whether or not it was commonly used in strictly secular settings.Got any more leads?

Still researching. I do kind of remember Doug Batchelor mentioning something about it, also my late pastor Dr. J. M. Hoffman, but don't recall exactly what. I also have heard from some ministers that you really don't need to say Amen after a pray! Not sure what they meant.

pk

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: aldona

I didn't touch the piano for about 10-15 years at one stage. One of the reasons was that I got fed up with all the times when I would put my heart and soul into a performance (not easy for me as I am naturally a shy person and used to get stage fright quite badly), only to have the amateur music critics put the word around that I was "showing off".

Musicians spend untold hours in practice so that they can show-off. Those that are Christians are showing off for God. Look what the Lord has done! A musician has every right to show off. That is the point!

Originally Posted By: aldona

So all you armchair critics who automatically accuse musicians of "showing off" when they put in a passionate performance - go have music lessons and then come and show us how you can do a better job.

What? Music lessons. No time for that. Too much TV, football, video games and other quality couch time.

Take that Karl!!

[nuff sed]

Yes, it is called "ignoring them".... nuff sed

[Outta Here]

This talk about showing off...

I attended a funeral in a Catholic church a few years ago. On the sides of the pulpit, behind a screen, the musicians performed beautifully. I appreciated greatly the talents they shared with us, but with out all the pressures of thinking they were doing it to glorify themselves. I never even saw their faces.

[Gail]

Hmmm...

I have a hard time with a congregation who refuse to use ANY method to encourage or affirm what is being said. Could we get to the point where we are so adamant about not applauding that we stifle any joyous response?

[aldona]

This talk about showing off...

I attended a funeral in a Catholic church a few years ago. On the sides of the pulpit, behind a screen, the musicians performed beautifully. I appreciated greatly the talents they shared with us, but with out all the pressures of thinking they were doing it to glorify themselves. I never even saw their faces.

I like that. I could certainly work with that kind of system. It would certainly reduce the nerves and stage fright for those musicians who fear performing in front of an audience.

I think that is a custom that goes back hundreds of years. I remember reading that the composer Vivaldi (who was also an ordained Catholic priest and wrote a lot of religious music for use in worship settings) had his musicians performing from behind a screen.

AJ

[Overaged]

I've been to some hapless clap-less churches ... and they are hope-less.

So there's no hope at a Church without "clapping?"

[Woody]

you wouldn't know it :)

[Liz]

If you're happy and you know it clap your hands....

If you're happy and you know it clap your hands

Perhaps some people don't know if they are happy or not?? Maybe some people just aren't happy???

[GreatLakesGramma]

Clapping and applause are not the same thing.