Gays and Lesbians React to GC Denial of Approval

[Gerr]

If our view is that church is not a place for sinners, then we should (in which case we should purge the church of most Adventists). If our view is that church is a place for sinners to come to repentance, then certainly we should not.

It is one thing to accept sinners who want to be reformed. We are all sinners in need of grace. It is another thing to accept sinners who want to reform the church so as to accept a lifestyle that it deems an abomination to God.

[John317]

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fccool: Being homosexual and practicing homosexuality is two different things. We need to realize that there is in fact a difference. There are people who are born with hormonal imbalances that confuse the gender preference issues. These people tend to have homosexual tendencies in either gender.

We should definitely teach homosexual lifestyle as a abnormal lifestyle that is inconsistent with God's procreation plan, but we likewise should not reject any homosexuals who are abstaining from the practice, yet are openly homosexual in nature. To say that homosexuality is a sin, also would mean that mental and physical disability is a sin. Homosexuality goes far beyond choice, and depends heavily on human physiology in most cases.

I agree with you, fccool, but it's so important to emphasize that God is able to help anyone resist and overcome homosexual sins, as well as all other sexual and non-sexual sins.

The practice of homosexuality is definitely not beyond choice for those who accept Christ into their life and have the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Romans 6 and 8 and 1 John 1:5 to 2: 6 is for homosexuals.

As a church, we should never give up on people who are repentant for their sins and are struggling and need prayer and support. Those are the very one's we need to help. But if church members let it be known that they are practicing homosexuals and have no intention of stopping, they should be counseled lovingly but straightforwardly, and then if they continue to persist in homosexual sins, they must be disfellowshipped. If the church doesn't do this, God holds the entire church responsible. The church is a place for repenent sinners but not for those who are in open rebellion against God and the church's standards and beliefs.

I'm a non-practicing gay person, but I don't consider myself "openly homosexual," because I don't flaunt my homosexual tendencies. In fact, I'm constantly in an attitude of prayer that God will work in me to sanctify my whole being, including my mind and body. I have gender identity disorder and God still has lots of work to do in me that way, but I know from personal experience that He's able fulfill His promises.

In all the years I've been a member of the SDA church, I've never felt or heard anything that would indicate the church doesn't welcome me. But that's probably because I don't go around talking about being proud of being gay or about how I can't or won't stop committing homosexual sins. Satan loves that kind of talk because he knows it causes people to believe they can be saved while practicing not only those sins but all other sins as well.

[Gerr]

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According to my dictionary, "revile" means "to spread negative information about".

And which dictionary is that?

re•viled; re•vil•ing [ME, fr. AF reviler to despise, fr. re- + vil vile] vt 14c : to subject to verbal abuse : vituperate vi : to use abusive language : rail

Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

loidoréo [to revile, abuse], loidoría [abuse], loídoros [reviler], antiloidoréō [to revile in return]

This common word group has the secular sense of reproach, insult, calumny, and even blasphemy. In the LXX it carries the nuance of wrangling, angry remonstrance, or chiding as well as thee usual calumny. Philo has it for mockery or invective. In the NT the verb occurs four times and the noun and adjective twice each.

Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. (1995, c1985). Theological dictionary of the New Testament. Translation of: Theologisches Worterbuch zum Neuen Testament. (538). Grand Rapids, Mich.: W.B. Eerdmans.

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Aren't you spreading negative information about homosexuals?

And would you please give the reference to the negative information that I have been spreading about homosexuals?

[SivartM]

Insult means the same thing.

And would you please give the reference to the negative information that I have been spreading about homosexuals?

That homosexuals cannot go to heaven. That is information, and it is negative.

[John317]

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SivartM: Should we reject homosexuals who disagree with the official view of the church on this issue?

What should the church do with those who are openly committing other sins-- for instance, any of the sins mentioned in 1 Cor. 6: 9,10---- and trying to persuade others to practice them, too?

I think the church first and foremost has a responsibility to lovingly try its best to help them to see that those practices are wrong, yet if they persist in their ways, the church has no alternative but to disfellowship them. But the whole purpose of disfellowshipping is restoration and ultimate salvation.

[there buster]

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born with hormonal imbalances that confuse the gender preference issues.

A sweeping statement lacking support. Here's an unbiased examination.

If it were true, then we should be able to determine whether a child would be hetero or not simply by testing their hormone balance.

In any case, this justification -- "I was born that way" -- is invalid. People are born with lots of desires, like wanting to possess things without earning them or paying for them. Being born with a desire does not make acting on that desire legitimate.

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SivartM: Should we reject homosexuals who disagree with the official view of the church on this issue?

Should we reject bank robbers who disagree with the view of the church on theft?

[SivartM]

In all the years I've been a member of the SDA church, I've never felt or heard anything that would indicate the church doesn't welcome me. But that's probably because I don't go around talking about being proud of being gay or about how I can't or won't stop committing homosexual sins. Satan loves that kind of talk because he knows it causes people to believe they can be saved while practicing not only those sins but all other sins as well.

Could you point out where "Someone to Talk to" endorses gay pride and tells people to practice homosexual sins? As I understand it it's a ministry to support the family and friends of homosexuals.

[John317]

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SivartM: Fortunately, drug dealing is not likely to be endorsed at any time by our church. Neither is blessing homosexuals in a committed, monogamous relationship, at least not any time soon.

I don't think the entire SDA church in GC session will ever give its blessing to homosexuals in a "committed, monogamous" relationship, but there is no doubt that some very important SDA theologians and thought-leaders in our church do support it. It is not as far fetched an idea as some might think.

God's self-declared enemy works slowly and craftily. He starts with mere suggestions, such as "maybe..." or "what if...?"

Sorta like he did with Eve. Did he have success with it?

[SivartM]

Quote:

SivartM: Should we reject homosexuals who disagree with the official view of the church on this issue?

What should the church do with those who are openly committing other sins-- for instance, any of the sins mentioned in 1 Cor. 6: 9,10---- and trying to persuade others to practice them, too?

I think the church first and foremost has a responsibility to lovingly try its best to help them to see that those practices are wrong, yet if they persist in their ways, the church has no alternative but to disfellowship them. But the whole purpose of disfellowshipping is restoration and ultimate salvation.

An honorable homosexual who has biblical reasons for not condemning a committed monogamous relationship with someone of the same gender would not be trying to persuade others to become gay.

Again, the church ought to be disfellowshipping nearly everyone. Most of us have "our ways".

[SivartM]

God's self-declared enemy works slowly and craftily. He starts with mere suggestions, such as "maybe..." or "what if...?" Sorta like he did with Eve.

We must be sure not to ask any questions, then.

[SivartM]

Should we reject bank robbers who disagree with the view of the church on theft?

Would you mind explaining, if you please, how a committed, monogamous relationship with someone of the same gender is akin to stealing from a multitude of people and very obviously breaking civil and biblical law, an act which no theologian would consider to be justified biblically?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Could you point out where "Someone to Talk to" endorses gay pride and tells people to practice homosexual sins? As I understand it it's a ministry to support the family and friends of homosexuals.

from "Someone to Talk to" website :

Quote:

All parents want their children to have rich, fulfilling lives. As parents of gay children think of the lonely, difficult path their sons and daughters face – often shunned and despised by those who don’t care to understand them, perhaps persecuted and discriminated against – their hearts ache. They long to make the world a better place for their children. That longing may lead to the ultimate question, Why is it wrong or sinful for my child, who is unable to have a successful heterosexual marriage, to want that same kind of relationship with a same-sex partner?

Do we believe that the sole reason God instituted marriage was for procreation? Or was it also to help us better understand the kind of relationship God wants to have with us? Was it to help us learn to submit our will to our partner, as we submit ourselves to Christ? Was it meant to be a school where we learn to love unselfishly and put another’s needs before our own? Was it meant to create a bond that will help us build community and make the world a better place? Do our gay and lesbian children not need the blessings and benefits of marriage as much as our straight children?

[SivartM]

Thank you for posting that, rudywoofs. But that does not endorse gay pride or homosexual sins.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Thank you for posting that, rudywoofs. But that does not endorse gay pride or homosexual sins.

If you take the time to read the rest of the link, it definitely infers it.

Here's another quote:

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Might this not illustrates the need God places in each of us for a loving, committed, intimate relationship, and the risk in which denying fulfillment of that need puts us? It’s true that in less than optimum conditions this need can be partially filled by a close friendship. But our church has failed to make any effort to help provide this for gay and lesbian people. Though some churches may tolerate gay or lesbian persons, only in rare circumstances do they offer them a warm, loving supportive community.

[Gerr]

Insult means the same thing.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And would you please give the reference to the negative information that I have been spreading about homosexuals?

That homosexuals cannot go to heaven. That is information, and it is negative.

I was merely quoting what GOD through the Holy Spirit revealed to Paul. Should we charge all three as revilers?

BTW, it is NOT accurate to say that homosexuals cannot go to heaven, I did not say that, and neither did Paul whom I quoted. It is PRACTICING homosexuals who cannot be admitted into heaven. And for that matter practicing idolaters, practicing robbers, etc.

[John317]

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SivartM: Should we reject homosexuals who disagree with the official view of the church on this issue?

Quote:

JOHN3:17: What should the church do with those who are openly committing other sins-- for instance, any of the sins mentioned in 1 Cor. 6: 9,10---- and trying to persuade others to practice them, too?

I think the church first and foremost has a responsibility to lovingly try its best to help them to see that those practices are wrong, yet if they persist in their ways, the church has no alternative but to disfellowship them. But the whole purpose of disfellowshipping is restoration and ultimate salvation.

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SivartM: An honorable homosexual who has biblical reasons for not condemning a committed monogamous relationship with someone of the same gender would not be trying to persuade others to become gay.

What biblical reasons could anyone have for not "condemning a homosexual relationship"? The Bible clearly says all such relationships are sinful.

I'm not suggesting that it's our responsibility to go up to all homosexuals we observe and say "what you're doing is a sin" or that "I condemn your actions."

If you think this, you're completely misunderstanding me.

But you are bringing up a situation that no one has even suggested.

We're talking about homosexual relations within the church, not outside of the church. The church can't control or directly influence anything that non-members do.

My point is that when I live with another man in a romantic, sexual relationship while in the church and I tell people that I can't stop and won't stop, it is harmful to the church. It encourages others to commit sin.

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SivartM: Again, the church ought to be disfellowshipping nearly everyone. Most of us have "our ways".

There are times when difellowshipping is needed. But there is a lot of work that should be done before that step is taken.

I stand with what Ellen White wrote:

I saw that the messengers and the church must have compassion with some, making a difference. Now the messengers of God must seek wisdom and know how to treat each individual case. Not all must be treated alike. By close examination it will be seen that individual cases differ. Some are to be borne with longer than others, but if one is living in disobedience to the commandments of God, the church must act and must separate them from them. And for other sins it will often be necessary to disfellowship souls if they continue in their sins; yet great care should be used and great patience and forbearance exercised. {9MR 196, 197}

If there have been difficulties brethren and sisters,--if envy, malice, bitterness, evil surmisings, have existed, confess these sins, not in a general way, but go to your brethren and sisters personally. Be definite. If you have committed one wrong and they twenty, confess that one as though you were the chief offender. Take them by the hand, let your heart soften under the influence of the Spirit of God, and say, "Will you forgive me? I have not felt right toward you. I want to make right every wrong, that naught may stand registered against me in the books of heaven. I must have a clean record." Who, think you, would withstand such a movement as this? There is too much coldness and indifference--too much of the "I don't care" spirit--exercised among the professed followers of Christ. All should feel a care for one another, jealously guarding each other's interests. "Love one another." Then we should stand a strong wall against Satan's devices. Amid opposition and persecution we would not join the vindictive ones, not unite with the followers of the great rebel, whose special work is to accuse the brethren, to defame and cast stain upon their characters. {RH, December 16, 1884 par. 7}

Let the remnant of this year be improved in destroying every fiber of the root of bitterness, burying them in the grave with the old year. Begin the new year with more tender regard, with deeper love, for every member of the Lord's family. Press together. "United, we stand; divided, we fall." Take a higher, nobler stand than you ever have before. {RH, December 16, 1884 par. 8}

Many appear to be steadfast in the truth, firm, decided on every point of our faith; yet there is a great lack in them,--the tenderness and love which marked the character of the great Pattern. If a brother errs from the truth, if he falls into temptation, they make no effort to restore him in meekness, considering themselves lest they also be tempted. They seem to regard it as their special work to climb upon the judgment seat and condemn and disfellowship. They do not obey God's word, which says, "Ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness." The spirit of this passage is altogether too rare in our churches. It is the lack of it that shuts out the Spirit of God from the heart, from the home, from the church. Shall we not henceforth practice the Bible plan of restoring erring ones in the spirit of meekness? Shall we not have the spirit of Jesus, and work as he worked? {RH, December 16, 1884 par. 9}

[SivartM]

Actually, Paul was talking about arsenokoites.

[Gerr]

Actually, Paul was talking about arsenokoites.

[arsenokoites /ar·sen·ok·oy·tace/] n m. From 730 and 2845; GK 780; Two occurrences; AV translates as “abuser of (one’s) self with mankind” once, and “defile (one’s) self with mankind” once. 1 one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual.

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) (G733). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.

[Guest]

arsenokoites it is then. You can change the name but it's still a sin. Just like adultry, murder, etc.

[John317]

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Gerry Cabalo:

And would you please give the reference to the negative information that I have been spreading about homosexuals?

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SilvartM: That homosexuals cannot go to heaven. That is information, and it is negative.

Gerry is saying that practicing, unrepentant homosexuals will not go to heaven. Just like practicing, unrepentant thieves or adulterers will not go to heaven. There is much biblical evidence for this.

Here are Gerry's exact words: "BTW, it is NOT accurate to say that homosexuals cannot go to heaven, I did not say that, and neither did Paul whom I quoted. It is PRACTICING homosexuals who cannot be admitted into heaven. And for that matter practicing idolaters, practicing robbers, etc."

[John317]

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SivartM: Actually, Paul was talking about arsenokoites.

Yes, indeed.

What is that?

"arseen" means "male."

"Koitee" means "bed," i.e., sexual relations

Therefore Paul is talking about men who have sexual relations with other males. Others might call it men who sleep, or go to bed, with other men. Same dif. :-)

[SivartM]

My point is that there are alternate interpretations of all the anti-gay verses you've posted that deserve to be considered, and people who believe in those interpretations should not be condemned, especially since the Bible (and Ellen) really doesn't say very much at all even in the orthodox interpretations.

[John317]

Amen and AMEN!!

[SivartM]

arsenokoites it is then. You can change the name but it's still a sin. Just like adultry, murder, etc.

That's not changing the name; that's the original name, one which I did not give it and the meaning of which is disputed.

[John317]

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SivartM:My point is that there are alternate interpretations of all the anti-gay verses you've posted that deserve to be considered, and people who believe in those interpretations should not be condemned, especially since the Bible (and Ellen) really doesn't say very much at all even in the orthodox interpretations.

There was a time only a few years ago when I would have been overjoyed if your idea was correct. I would have loved nothing more than to believe God was OK with my living with other guys. But I have studied this topic intensely since about 1973 when I was baptized. I slipped back into the practice of homosexuality until 2004. So emotionally I have every reason to want to believe your viewpoint, but it doesn't hold up under valid biblical exegesis.

If you care to, let's discuss it.

I'm very familiar with the "alternative interpretations" you speak of because I used to see the same things written in pamphlets published by the gay church I attended in San Diego. I never thought the day would come when those arguments would be found blowing through the SDA church. That didn't begin to happen until about 1980. It's spread since then, and I believe it will go on spreading until you will find some indivdual churches and perhaps conferences recognizing homosexual relations in the church.