Gays and Lesbians React to GC Denial of Approval

[John317]

Quote:

John3:17 (quoting fccool): "born with hormonal imbalances that confuse the gender preference issues."

Quote:

there buster: A sweeping statement lacking support. Here's an unbiased examination.

OK, but here was fccool's complete sentence:

"There are people who are born with hormonal imbalances that confuse the gender preference issues. These people tend to have homosexual tendencies in either gender."

This is true, that "there are people" like this. He's not saying that all or even most homosexuals have hormonal imbalances.

Check out some literature; and if possible read the entire book if you haven't already done so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_Sex

http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/brainsx.html

The following is a portion of the book:

Quote:

In the first few weeks in the womb, the tiny foetus isn't noticeably a miniature girl or a miniature boy. It has all the basic equipment, such as vestigal ducts, tracts and so on, to develop as either sex. But as the weeks go by, the genes begin to put the message across. If things go normally, and everything follows the XY blueprint of a boy, the chromosomes will cue the development of the gonads into testes. It's now, at around six weeks, that sexual identity is finally determined - when the male foetus develops the special cells which produce the male hormones or androgens, the main one being testosterone. The hormones instruct the body not to bother with developing a feminine set of sexual equipment, while stimulating the development of embryonic male genitalia.

About the same time, if the baby is female, genetically XX, the reproductive machinery develops along female lines, produces no significant amount of male hormone, and results in a girl baby. Just as the six-week-old foetus wasn't recognisably male or female in appearance, so the embryonic brain takes some time before it begins to acquire a specific sexual identity. If the embryo is genetically female, nothing very drastic happens to the basic pattern of the brain. In broad terms, the natural template of the brain seems to be female. In normal girls it will develop natually along female lines.

In boys it is different. Just as male gender depended on the presence of male hormone, so a radical intervention is needed to change that naturally female brain structure into a male pattern. This literally mind-altering process is the result of the same process that determined those other physical changes - the intervention of the hormones.

By the way, a few years ago, I saw on 3ABN a well-known SDA neurosurgeon (Dr. Baldwin) who gave a lecture on this very topic, and he agreed that some gays are born with "feminzed brains" due to exposusure to female hormone in utero; and the same with some lesbians, who are exposed to male hormone instead of to female hormone during early development.

But again, what I would emphasize is that God is able to overrule those results of the Fall, just as He's able to help people overcome any other sinful tendency they're born with.

For instance, fairly recently geneticists discovered genetic reasons for some boys and girls to have a tendency to join gangs. It's the same genetic reasons that some people enjoy taking risks and crave danger. That will be no execuse in the judgment for someone to do wrong, however, because God is able to empower us to overcome all known sins in our lives if we surrender them to Him.

Quote:

there buster: In any case, this justification -- "I was born that way" -- is invalid. People are born with lots of desires, like wanting to possess things without earning them or paying for them. Being born with a desire does not make acting on that desire legitimate.

It should never be used as a justification (altho' of course it is), because God is able to help us resist and overcome ALL SIN, every sin. There is no sin that God is unable to help us overcome. This includes even hereditary weaknesses and tendencies.

I believe some gays are "born that way," but I'm sure it isn't the case for all gays or even for most gays. There are many reasons-- not just one or two-- that people are gay. It's most often a combination of environment and nature. But very few wake up one morning and make a conscious decision to have sex with members of their own gender, just like heterosexuals don't consciously decide to be attracted to the opposite sex. Life is much more complex than that.

[fccool]

The purpose of the law is to bring us to Christ. The sinner must first be shown he is need of Christ before He will desire Him.

[doug yowell]

By the way SivartM. You need to understand that 50 years old is YOUNG.

Thanks Woody! Perspective is everything past 50!!

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

My point is that there are alternate interpretations of all the anti-gay verses you've posted that deserve to be considered, and people who believe in those interpretations should not be condemned, especially since the Bible (and Ellen) really doesn't say very much at all even in the orthodox interpretations.

It's almost offensive to watch this train wreck of an argumentive.....kid.....argue with someone like John317 on the topic of homosexuality. Listen boy, you have no idea the HELL that John317 has gone through to come to God's deliverance from homosexual sin. It would be altogether appropriate to encourage this older and much wiser brother in the freedom God has given him. And, it is altogether unecessary to blather on with "I want to hear my voice" arguments about something which you know nothing - for the sake of getting attention.

Rant over,

oG

(sheesh)

Uh, take a deep breath,og,I think SM has great potential with as much dedication of his intellect to Scriptural study as to theological banter."Remember now your Creator in the days of your youth." "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." I trust the power of God's Word over any intellectually sound arguments from anyone here at CA.(with all due respects to intellectual coherence)I say "Go to the Word, young man!"

[John317]

Quote:

Shane:The purpose of the law is to bring us to Christ. The sinner must first be shown he is need of Christ before He will desire Him.

You point out something that is so important, Shane.

It's why it's wrong for Christians to see wrong and keep silent about it, because if everyone is silent, or if they give the impression that sin is not sin, many people will never feel the need of Christ. Then we become enablers of wrong instead of helpers to do right. I'm afraid our church may follow the way of the popular churches and of the world and lead gay people to think they can practice homosexuality and still be saved in God's kingdom.

The irony is that we could do that because we convince ourselves that we love gays too much to offend them, but the decision could well result in their eternal loss. I would rather take the chance of offending someone for a while and see them saved in God's everlasting kingdom. So in the end, who will have loved gays the most-- those who say nothing or those who call sin by its right name?

[fccool]

Well said John,

But likewise it goes along with the concept of being upfront about the "counting the cost". We should never make impression that it's going to be an easy ride of minimal effort.

The way many paint the salvation picture today:

1) Recite a prayer

2) Receive the Holy Spirit

3) God will do all the work, all you have to do is let go.

Really? If it was that easy, why would we have any problems in Churches at all?

We should tell people upfront that it will be continuous battle with self, which may lead to discouraging times along with many victories. That it will get easier as we go on to say "no" or "yes". That there are some sacrifices to be made. We won't magically want to do Godly things right away. It requires discipline. God does not promise to do all the work for us, but through us.

I was an athlete, and I tend to think of God as my strength and conditioning coach. God will not be lifting weights for me, but He will stand by my side and encourage me, and push me, and congratulate me... and if I fail, He'll be there to help me get that weight off, rest up and try again.

At least, this is my limited perspective, perhaps.

[doug yowell]

If I were you SivartM ... I would just avoid listening to ANYthing that Olger or John317 have to say on this subject.

That's the best wisdom that this young over 50 old man would have.

Is that the best ya got, Woody?

[olger]

I like this verse DY:

"Rememember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth.."

And this one, "How can a young man keep his way pure? By living according to your word. I seek you with all my heart; do not let me stray from your commands" (Psalm 119: 9-10).

[Rondo]

Always felt the way people are brought into the church was wrong. We should receive everyone on salvific issues only. If we want to make a member distinction or limit what leadership positions those that do not accept all doctrine of the denomination, I saw the practice used in a Presbyterian Church. I finally had to leave because I felt I had grown all I could and I kept banging into ideas I didn't agree with.

That's how I feel about Homosexuality. Why would one want to join where you have to parse whether you ar active or just latent with your feelings. Likewise, if I was dying of Aids, I wouldn't want to go to just a normal hospital or nursing home but one that specialize in the disease's end game.

I guess I can secularize the issue, and be civil to Homosexuals, but they, Homosexuals should not be trying to change what won't or can't be changed. If you wish to fellowship under those rules, come on down.

[teresaq]

"We love you and support you. So now just stop being perverted and we'll listen to you."

[Woody]

well spoken teresa

[teresaq]

I'm not talking about people who reject Christ here, but people who reject Church doctrine. Two different things, although our church loves the control of saying who belongs and who does not... ironically ... we vote people in . It's not Biblical version of church membership.

In short... "Those who have no sin... cast the first stone". But of course, it should not be separated from "Go and sin no more".

Yet, the reality is that we will sin, and that we are in no lesser need of the Savior than homosexual who practices immorality.

My point is that he/she has far greater chance of repenting, while surrounded by the community of the loving believers... rather than to be ejected by the community of the Pharasies who stone the sin out of people.

Church is not only a club for Christians, but also a shelter for sinners to come to eventual repentance. Sure, some will not, but it does not give us right to decide their salvation or "church membership". God decides that... not us. We can't vote God's decisions in.

great thoughts and basically i agree.