Gays and Lesbians React to GC Denial of Approval

[John317]

Quote:

SivartM: I do think it's possible. As I said, I haven't studied this as much as you have.

I assume you mean you think it's possible the Bible does not condemn the practice of homosexuality.

I'd like to suggest that you study the issue in the Bible seriously until you know.

Quote:

SivartM: I didn't say that the Bible absolutely doesn't condone it; I just haven't seen any translations of the Bible that endorse homosexual activity.

There are some Bible translations that try to hedge on the issue, but any translation that does a half decent job of communicating what the Bible is saying can't very well hide the fact that the Bible condemns it as a sin. But there are many ways for humans to get around a sin when they really want to. As the Good Book says, "The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, and who can know it?"

[John317]

Quote:

SivartM: Should we reject homosexuals who disagree with the official view of the church on this issue?

If it means they are practicing homosexuality, then the answer must be a resounding "yes."

And I would sincerely hope and pray the church would have the integrity and backbone to reject me as a member if I ever come out in favor of the church accepting homosexual practices by church members.

[SivartM]

Look. I'm only 17 and I don't know how to answer all of your questions and I've never studied in a seminary and I don't have decades of studying. I just don't want to judge people. You will all give me long lectures (or for some of you short, snide remarks) about hypothetical situations and exegesis of all passages about judging and everything else your brilliant minds contain on the subject, but I just really don't want to judge people. The only reason I joined this discussion was because someone called gay people perverts and that just sounded wrong, and it still does.

So if you won't listen to me until I have studied as much as you, I guess I won't be discussing this any further.

[John317]

Quote:

SivartM: Which fundamental belief addresses homosexuals?

Homosexual practices (i.e., sexual relations between members of the same sex) are not in harmony with the commandments of God with respect to sex within the context of marriage. Such sexual relations meet the definition of fornication, immorality, and adultery. The Bible condemns all sexual relations that don't take place in the context of marriage between a male and a female.

[phkrause]

Look. I'm only 17 and I don't know how to answer all of your questions and I've never studied in a seminary and I don't have decades of studying. I just don't want to judge people. You will all give me long lectures (or for some of you short, snide remarks) about hypothetical situations and exegesis of all passages about judging and everything else your brilliant minds contain on the subject, but I just really don't want to judge people. The only reason I joined this discussion was because someone called gay people perverts and that just sounded wrong, and it still does.

So if you won't listen to me until I have studied as much as you, I guess I won't be discussing this any further.

Not saying your wrong Sivart but I don't recall anyone calling gays perverts! And I agree with therebuster's post. I'm not going to repeat it here, you can reread it if you'd like. I find that sometimes you talk yourself into these situations.

I for one would not like to see you stop posting, but to only think before you post. Again I'd ask you to reread therebuster's post and think about what he's saying, don't take it negatively but positively.

[SivartM]

olger did. See first page.

I read there buster's post and I understand what he means. But I don't know how to answer everyone's questions and I'm really not sure what I believe about this and nobody seems to comprehend that I'm not 50 years old and studied this for my whole life.

[Woody]

By the way SivartM. You need to understand that 50 years old is YOUNG. :)

[phkrause]

olger did. See first page.

I read there buster's post and I understand what he means. But I don't know how to answer everyone's questions and I'm really not sure what I believe about this and nobody seems to comprehend that I'm not 50 years old and studied this for my whole life.

OK I missed olger's post than.

There are plenty of 50 year olds that know less than you, so don't fell bad. :)

[olger]

My point is that there are alternate interpretations of all the anti-gay verses you've posted that deserve to be considered, and people who believe in those interpretations should not be condemned, especially since the Bible (and Ellen) really doesn't say very much at all even in the orthodox interpretations.

It's almost offensive to watch this train wreck of an argumentive.....kid.....argue with someone like John317 on the topic of homosexuality. Listen boy, you have no idea the HELL that John317 has gone through to come to God's deliverance from homosexual sin. It would be altogether appropriate to encourage this older and much wiser brother in the freedom God has given him. And, it is altogether unecessary to blather on with "I want to hear my voice" arguments about something which you know nothing - for the sake of getting attention.

Rant over,

oG

(sheesh)

[SivartM]

It's almost offensive to watch this train wreck of an argumentive.....kid.....argue with someone like John317 on the topic of homosexuality. Listen boy, you have no idea the HELL that John317 has gone through to come to God's deliverance from homosexual sin. It would be altogether appropriate to encourage this older and wiser brother in the freedom God has given him. And, it is altogether unecessary to blather on with "I want to hear my voice" arguments about something which you know nothing - for the sake of getting attention.

Rant over,

oG

olger, you have no idea where I am coming from either. So maybe you should consider that before assuming I know nothing about what I say.

[olger]

What is it that you struggle with?

[Woody]

If I were you SivartM ... I would just avoid listening to ANYthing that Olger or John317 have to say on this subject.

That's the best wisdom that this young over 50 old man would have.

[John317]

Quote:

SivartM:olger did. See first page.

Here's what olger said:

Quote:

Dear church member, is the God whom you serve able to deliver you from the lion of immorality & perversion? Our God is able.

From the biblical viewpoint, homosexual practices are immoral and perversion. No question about that. That is different from calling someone "a pervert." If I were practicing homosexuality, I know that I would be practicing a perversion.

Here is the dictionary definition of perversion:

"1 perverting or being perverted 2 something perverted 3 any sexual act or practice considered abnormal."

The Bible definitely considers homosexual acts abnormal, thus it is a perversion.

By the way, in my natural mind-- ie., apart from the Bible and the Holy Spirit--- I don't see homosexuality as wrong or a perversion, because it is "natural" for me in my sinful nature. For many, many years I had a real struggle with this aspect. I couldn't see why God condemned something I found so "beautiful" and joyful, something that was as natural for me as breathing. But that shows how sinful and evil we are in our natural hearts and minds. There are people who are only happy when they're smashing someone's face or even killing them.

So we can't go by what seems right. There's a way that seems right to a man which leads to death. In fact, there are many such ways.

We have to learn to see things through the eyes of the Holy Spirit. "We walk by faith and not by sight." If we give God persmission, and we're willing to obey Him, He will change our minds and help us to understand His will.

[Dr. Shane]

The only reason I joined this discussion was because someone called gay people perverts and that just sounded wrong, and it still does.

The desire to eat meat is often called perverted. That is because it is not natural. God created us vegetarians. Our perverted appetites are what cause us to have the desire to eat meat.

I am an alcoholic. That is a perversion. Alcohol is a toxin and when consumed in amounts large enough to make a person drunk they become intoxicated. It is not natural to desire to be in such a state. Thus alcoholics have perverted the natural instinct of survival.

There are many kinds of perverts. Homosexuals are perverts because God created man to be with woman in a sexual relationship. For a man or a woman to have sex with someone of the same sex is perverted.

[Woody]

One who performs a perversion ... is clearly called a pervert. But in our society ... the word refers to only ONE perversion. That having to do with sex.

[SivartM]

There are lots of words that apply to all those sins. Many of them are not nice. Most people aren't thinking of things like meat-eating when they hear the word "perverted".

[olger]

Amen brother. Thanks for being a witness to the liberating power of God. He has delivered me from other sins as well. Praise Him. He is able !

g

[Dr. Shane]

If I were you SivartM ... I would just avoid listening to ANYthing that Olger or John317 have to say on this subject.

Olger likes to joke around and sometimes can come across crass. He has a heart of gold, years of dedicated Bible study and experience walking the walk. One would be wise to not let him offend them too easily.

John317 is an elder in every sense of the word. He has decades of wisdom from both Bible study and struggle. Inclining one's ear to him could save one years of pain and needless failure.

These two don't talk about feel-good religion. They talk about living the victories won in the trenches of temptation. I would never say anything to diminish their testimonies.

[Dr. Shane]

One who performs a perversion ... is clearly called a pervert. But in our society ... the word refers to only ONE perversion. That having to do with sex.

I have yet to hear a sermon about vegetarianism that did not use the word perversion. Meat-eating is a perversion and often called that in Adventist circles.

[John317]

Quote:

Gerry Cabalo:

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Le 18:22)

Quote:

SivartM: Ah. So shall you be resigning from the church shortly also? We'll need to see a detailed report on how you are following every verse in the Bible (especially Leviticus).

Do you see a difference between church members who openly practice sin, defy the church standards, and have no intention of changing-- and those who are repentant and want to obey Christ?

This thread is about whether the church should accept openly practicing homosexuals as church members. It is not about whether the church should accept repentant homosexuals who are struggling to let God direct their lives and conform them to His will. Nor is it about whether the church should spy on people to find out if they are obeying every verse in the Bible or not.

[fccool]

Quote:

Homosexual practices (i.e., sexual relations between members of the same sex) are not in harmony with the commandments of God with respect to sex within the context of marriage. Such sexual relations meet the definition of fornication, immorality, and adultery. The Bible condemns all sexual relations that don't take place in the context of marriage between a male and a female.

John, I am talking about repentant homosexuals who are at the crossroads of making important decisions in life.

EXIBIT A:

Polygamy of David and OT Kings. They had wives that they were sexually involved with:

was told by God, “...I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom... and if that had been too little, I would have given unto thee such and such things.” II Samuel 12:8.

If God can overlook polygamy as cultural norm, and be patient with David, calling him a man after his own heart... he certainly expects us to be patient with homosexuals.

God does not require us to be sinless as we come to Baptism. This is not what Baptism is for. Baptism is a symbol of new life. It does not mean that we will not have temptations or addictions.

Should an alcoholic first go through the rehab before allowed to be Baptized? It's ridiculous. The mere fact that alcoholic would like to be Baptized annotates desire for repentance. Do alcoholics annul their Baptism because they succumb to alcohol? I hope not.

The point here is struggle.

What I don't want you to think that I'm saying that we should mislead what it means to be a Christian. It's not simply recite a prayer and be Baptized. Repentance is certainly the way for reconciliation. I make no mistake about it. The penalty for idolatry and sexual immorality was death in OT. There was no sacrifice one could make to atone.

The reason we don't do it today ... not because we are more liberal, but because God's covenant is different with us than that of Israel. The terms are different. We are not given 613 laws to follow. We are given principles that transcend law. :

Quote:

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

BUT RIGHT AFTER:

Quote:

1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For each one shall bear his own load.

The main point is that we don't begin with perfection. We grow into perfection. To say that we can't be Baptized unless we resemble perfection and fully understand Spiritual concepts would be beyond a logical fallacy.

It's not our job to allow or deny "church membership". That choice only belongs to God. Our job is to love, encourage, teach, uplift, correct, and restore one another. God is the judge of the Character.

We should never deny Baptism to person who is willing to make that step. We can certainly correct, but God overlooked far worse things as I have pointed out above.

[olger]

If I were you SivartM ... I would just avoid listening to ANYthing that Olger or John317 have to say on this subject.

That's the best wisdom that this young over 50 old man would have.

Verse for you, neighbor. Matthew 23:15

[Woody]

Thanks fccool. Good Post.

[Woody]

This brings to mind ...

What is the first thing that we should preach to an individual?

That homosexuality is a sin? Or should we preach the Gospel.

They don't need to know or agree that homsexuality is a sin before baptism.

[Dr. Shane]

The purpose of the law is to bring us to Christ. The sinner must first be shown he is need of Christ before he will desire Him.