Gospel Truth?

[skyblue888]

The matter of salvation in very simple terms:

In the book Faith and Works, p.65, bottom of the page, the Holy Spirit speaks of "the faith that lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour to bring Christ's righteousness into your life."

So this clearly tells us that we lay hold of Christ's righteousness by laying right hold upon the merits of His shed blood.

Now read this: "He who will lay hold of Christ's righteousness (by laying hold of the merits of His shed blood) need not wait one moment that he himself may blot out his own sins. He need not wait until he has made a suitable repentance before he may take hold of Christ's righteousness. We do not understand the matter of salvation. It is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." Faith and Works, p.64.

Thus we read, "If we are conscious of our needs, we should not devote all our powers to mourning over them. While we realize our helpless condition without Christ, we are not to yield to discouragement, but RELY upon the MERITS of a crucified and risen Saviour. Look and live. Not one who trust in the MERITS of Christ will be left to perish." Patriarchs and Prophets, p.432.

And to those who trust in the merits of Christ alone for pardon and peace and light and joy in the Holy Spirit, every command becomes a promise, a most positive promise of its own fulfilment!

Thank God for making clear the plan of salvation.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

No doubt there was a misunderstanding of God's character on the part of Adam and Eve. But the main problem was sin. They took Lucifer's word over that of God. Eve was deceived. Adam sinned with his eyes opened. Lucifer KNEW/UNDERSTOOD God's character. He sinned anyway.

So the main problem is, it seems to me, sIn. So the Good News is encapsulated in Jn 3:16.

From "The Desire of Ages"

Quote:

n heaven itself this law was broken. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world. (DA 21, 22;emphasis mind)

How did Satan draw men to join him in sin? By misrepresenting God's character. Sin was the result of this.

The fundamental problem of man is not knowing God; His true character and love. It is this which leads men to sin, and, indeed, it's inevitable that sin will continue as long as God's character is misunderstood.

Quote:

It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth....

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. (COL 415)

The truth about God's character (being misled regarding it) is what got man into the mess of sin to start with, and it will be the final message which will get man out of the mess.

[fccool]

I very much agree with the above. In this day and age is not merely a question of misrepresenting God's character, but making Him void all together.

The problem of sin in this world is really an epistemological problem.

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As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent?

I know that I'm taking the above slightly out of context, yet the point of the passage is that people can't know certain things they have not learned. Seems like an obvious statement, yet it's apparently completely goes over the head of the modern church that is offended by things that sinners do. We've had a guy visiting and going out for a smoke outside of the church, and you should have seen people's reaction. The churched were keeping him at pole-length.

That's where we should really decide whether we want the church to be an exclusive club of the saved, or a place where sinners can come to be transformed because they are loved.

[skyblue888]

Quote:

No doubt there was a misunderstanding of God's character on the part of Adam and Eve. But the main problem was sin. They took Lucifer's word over that of God. Eve was deceived. Adam sinned with his eyes opened. Lucifer KNEW/UNDERSTOOD God's character. He sinned anyway.

So the main problem is, it seems to me, sIn. So the Good News is encapsulated in Jn 3:16.

From "The Desire of Ages"

Quote:

n heaven itself this law was broken. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world. (DA 21, 22;emphasis mind)

How did Satan draw men to join him in sin? By misrepresenting God's character. Sin was the result of this.

The fundamental problem of man is not knowing God; His true character and love. It is this which leads men to sin, and, indeed, it's inevitable that sin will continue as long as God's character is misunderstood.

Quote:

It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth....

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. (COL 415)

The truth about God's character (being misled regarding it) is what got man into the mess of sin to start with, and it will be the final message which will get man out of the mess.

Yes, to be sure, understanding God's character will help men get out of the mess but only as they lay hold by faith of the remedy provided for sin: the merits of Christ.

"Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners. Not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin." E.G. White, Review and Herald, Nov.4, 1890.

These messages go hand in hand.

In the book Education, p.14 we read about "the knowledge of God" in these words:

"Wherever we turn in the physical, the mental, or the spiritual realm, in whatever we behold, apart from the blight of sin, this knowledge is revealed. Whatever line of investigation we pursue, with a sincere purpose to arrive at truth, we are brought in touch with the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all."

This is called "the highest education" whose effect on body and mind and soul is beyond estimate! (p.14) And then we read these words, "'Acquaint now yourself with God' is His message to mankind." This is all on page 14 of that book.

So this is another aspect of the knowledge of God which is just as important to understand as it is important to understand that the merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use or that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression but that He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

The problem of sin in this world is really an epistemological problem.

Given this is the case, it makes sense that the solution to the problem would be one of revelation.

[pnattmbtc]

That's where we should really decide whether we want the church to be an exclusive club of the saved, or a place where sinners can come to be transformed because they are loved.

I remember a story, where a "hippy type" person was sitting in the back row, and the church was talking about a strategy of evangelizing, and how to reach people. He pointed out that he was right there, in the church, and nobody reached out to him.

There are certain sins which are accepted in the church, and others which are not. Grey Boyd has written quite a bit about this. How the church treats gays, for example, is an example of what you're mentioning. By "the church," I mean the church as a whole, not just SDA's.

[fccool]

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Given this is the case, it makes sense that the solution to the problem would be one of revelation.

Not in every case.

Dillusion \'di 'lu-zhen\ 1 a : an idea regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is deliberately constructed and professed to be believed in order to delude others, the truth or falsity of which idea is either truthfully or falsely believed to be within one's own control.

There are people who are quite comfortable knowing that there is no God and likewise no ultimate source of accountability. Can you guess why?

[fccool]

Quote:

There are certain sins which are accepted in the church, and others which are not. Grey Boyd has written quite a bit about this. How the church treats gays, for example, is an example of what you're mentioning. By "the church," I mean the church as a whole, not just SDA's.

I was quite a fan of Francis Schaefer growing up, yet I'm certainly am with his son, Frank, when it comes to Christian fundamentalism today. It is very unfortunate that it's grown into a Pharisaical movement that sees and seeks everyone as a potential copy of itself. It spilled into the political arena, where it's further being even more hypocritical and corrupt.

I've exited that side of the Christianity as soon as I've left college.

[pnattmbtc]

Yes, to be sure, understanding God's character will help men get out of the mess but only as they lay hold by faith of the remedy provided for sin: the merits of Christ.

[skyblue888]

Yes, to be sure, understanding God's character will help men get out of the mess but only as they lay hold by faith of the remedy provided for sin: the merits of Christ.

sky

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Why do you think this is necessary? What problem is this fixing?

pnatt

_____________

"The lifting up of the brazen serpent was to teach Israel an important lesson. They could not save themselves from the fatal effect of the poison in their wounds. God alone was able to heal them. Yet they were required to show their faith in the provision He had made. They must look in order to live. It was their faith that was acceptable to God, and by looking upon the serpent their faith was shown. They knew that there was no virtue in the serpent itself, but it was a symbol of Christ; and the necessity of faith in His merits was thus presented to their minds... when we rely upon the merits of Jesus as a sin-pardoning Saviour, we shall receive all the help that we can desire... Though millions who need to be healed will reject His offered mercy, not one who trusts in His merits will be left to perish." Patriarchs and Prophets, p.430-432.

pnatt, 1. Appropriating the merits of Christ to ourselves by claiming them that we may be clothed with the robe of Christ's righteousness which accomplishes everything; 2. Acknowledging the relation between nature and nature's God, that God's throne is in Heaven, yet by His Spirit (the unseen, mighty Intelligence) He is everywhere present, moving in all things according to His will; and 3. Understanding that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression... these are three separate and special truths for this time and yet they are one as they all contribute in dispelling the cloud that obscures God's glory from our view.

And then there are stupendous truths to study and understand from the books of Daniel and the Revelation delineating last day events within the professed church of God and the whole world, only to mention these two books. Light is progressive and we must keep pace with the advancing light.

There was a time when, like you, I strongly believed that the Gospel message for these last days was to teach the message that you teach but as I kept on studying I soon realized that no matter how important that message was, that there were other special messages of truth that were just as important and that needed to be brought to the attention of all.

There is also the matter of organization as revealed in the 1901 and 1903 General Conference Bulletins and clearly explained in An Appeal for Gospel Order and Some History, Experience, and Facts by A.T. Jones.

This is also a very important aspect of the Gospel message for these last days.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

pnatt, 1. Appropriating the merits of Christ to ourselves by claiming them that we may be clothed with the robe of Christ's righteousness which accomplishes everything;

If we simply respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit, as the DA 175 quote explains, we *will* be clothed with the robe of Christ's righteousness. There's no need for any addition step than that explained in DA 175. The DA 175 quote is explaining the answer to the question, "How, then, are we to be saved."

Quote:

2. Acknowledging the relation between nature and nature's God, that God's throne is in Heaven, yet by His Spirit (the unseen, mighty Intelligence) He is everywhere present, moving in all things according to His will; and 3. Understanding that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression... these are three separate and special truths for this time and yet they are one as they all contribute in dispelling the cloud that obscures God's glory from our view.

I think there's one issue here. There's not one theory to be saved, and another theory on what message needs to be proclaimed for Christ to return. It's one message.

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And then there are stupendous truths to study and understand from the books of Daniel and the Revelation delineating last day events within the professed church of God and the whole world, only to mention these two books. Light is progressive and we must keep pace with the advancing light.

I agree with this.

Quote:

There was a time when, like you, I strongly believed that the Gospel message for these last days was to teach the message that you teach but as I kept on studying I soon realized that no matter how important that message was, that there were other special messages of truth that were just as important and that needed to be brought to the attention of all.

Jesus said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." To me, this is the heart of the Gospel. It's one unified message.

The DA quote from chapter 1 I cited explains how Satan has misrepresented the character of God in order to deceive him. This is how man was led into sin.

ST 1/20/90 tells us that the "whole purpose" of Christ's earthly mission was "the revelation of God." This is the same mission He has today, dispensing truth about God's character from the MHP. The only way that man can be set right and kept right is by the revelation of God (also ST 1/20/90). It's all about God's character!

Quote:

There is also the matter of organization as revealed in the 1901 and 1903 General Conference Bulletins and clearly explained in An Appeal for Gospel Order and Some History, Experience, and Facts by A.T. Jones.

This is also a very important aspect of the Gospel message for these last days.

I would tie this to God's character as well. Basically, our principles should be the same as His, regardless of what we're dealing with, including church organization.

[Gerr]

Quote:

How did Satan draw men to join him in sin? By misrepresenting God's character. Sin was the result of thisThe fundamental problem of man is not knowing God; His true character and love. It is this which leads men to sin, and, indeed, it's inevitable that sin will continue as long as God's character is misunderstood.

Lucifer was the first sinner. His sin was not due to a misrepresentation of God's character. He sinned in the full light of God's glory. While many are deceived into sin by the misapprehension of His character, knowing God's character does not necessarily prevent sin, otherwise Lucifer would not have done so.

[skyblue888]

Quote:

How did Satan draw men to join him in sin? By misrepresenting God's character. Sin was the result of thisThe fundamental problem of man is not knowing God; His true character and love. It is this which leads men to sin, and, indeed, it's inevitable that sin will continue as long as God's character is misunderstood.

Lucifer was the first sinner. His sin was not due to a misrepresentation of God's character. He sinned in the full light of God's glory. While many are deceived into sin by the misapprehension of His character, knowing God's character does not necessarily prevent sin, otherwise Lucifer would not have done so.

So true.

Laying hold of the merits of Christ's sacrifice is the remedy provided for sin. As we do this, we are told that the Father loves us as he loves His Son and we may go on from grace to grace and from light to a greater light! See F.W.101.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

p:How did Satan draw men to join him in sin? By misrepresenting God's character. Sin was the result of thisThe fundamental problem of man is not knowing God; His true character and love. It is this which leads men to sin, and, indeed, it's inevitable that sin will continue as long as God's character is misunderstood.

G:Lucifer was the first sinner. His sin was not due to a misrepresentation of God's character. He sinned in the full light of God's glory. While many are deceived into sin by the misapprehension of His character, knowing God's character does not necessarily prevent sin, otherwise Lucifer would not have done so.

Before discussing Lucifer, let's establish that for everyone else, the fall into sin was due to Lucifer's misrepresentation of God's character. Based on the DA quote cited, that's true, correct?

[fccool]

Lucifer was the first sinner. His sin was not due to a misrepresentation of God's character. He sinned in the full light of God's glory. While many are deceived into sin by the misapprehension of His character, knowing God's character does not necessarily prevent sin, otherwise Lucifer would not have done so.

Why did he sin then? Do you really think that he knows and believes that God is good and just? I hardly think so. He thinks and believes that God is a controlling tyrant.

BTW. Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (Venus) by Romans, hence in Vulgate the term "helal" translated as such. The term in Isiah... "Helal, son of Shahar", which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The passage in Isaiah most likely does not deal with Satan at all. It was forced into that context by several assumptions (i.e. Sheol = hell) and etc.

Ironically, this same name is what Christ is called in

2 Peter 1:19: You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

I know that it's a technicality, but Lucifer is not Satan's other name. It's one of those out-of-context dogmas derived by mistranslation.

Here's the study if you will:

http://www.crivoice.org/lucifer.html

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Lucifer was the first sinner. His sin was not due to a misrepresentation of God's character. He sinned in the full light of God's glory. While many are deceived into sin by the misapprehension of His character, knowing God's character does not necessarily prevent sin, otherwise Lucifer would not have done so.

Why did he sin then?

That's the mystery of iniquity. He had no reason to sin except, as Isaiah says, he aspired to usurp God's position.

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Do you really think that he knows and believes that God is good and just? I hardly think so. He thinks and believes that God is a controlling tyrant.

I believe the Bible is silent as to how much of God he knew. But as one of the covering cherubs, he must have known more than the other angels. The only evidence that I can present to you that he sinned in the full light of God's glory is what an extra-biblical modern writer whom I believe to be a messenger from God had to say.

Quote:

BTW. Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (Venus) by Romans, hence in Vulgate the term "helal" translated as such. The term in Isiah... "Helal, son of Shahar", which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn."

You are correct. That is how the ESV (the version I use for serious Bible) in fact translates it. But I am using Lucifer as is commonly understood.

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The passage in Isaiah most likely does not deal with Satan at all. It was forced into that context by several assumptions (i.e. Sheol = hell) and etc.

Ironically, this same name is what Christ is called in

2 Peter 1:19: You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

I know that it's a technicality, but Lucifer is not Satan's other name. It's one of those out-of-context dogmas derived by mistranslation.

Most scholars view the day star in Isa 14 & the king of Tyre in Ez 28 as really Satan. Christ was not a star fallen from heaven. It is true that Peter uses Day Star as an appellation for Christ, but bear in mind that Satan is an impostor. Just as he tries to take the place of Christ (anti-Christ), and present himself as an angel of light, it is no wonder that he also presents himself as the Day Star.

[fccool]

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That's the mystery of iniquity. He had no reason to sin except, as Isaiah says, he aspired to usurp God's position.

I don't really believe so . The guy's not stupid, he knows it's impossible. I think that he fell out because he disagreed. It's as simple as that.

[pnattmbtc]

I think that he fell out because he disagreed. It's as simple as that.

Disagreed regarding what?

[pnattmbtc]

Why did he sin then? Do you really think that he knows and believes that God is good and just? I hardly think so. He thinks and believes that God is a controlling tyrant.

Are you saying you think this is the reason Lucifer sinned? Because he thought God was a controlling tyrant?

[fccool]

For whatever reason it may be, it certainly was not because he thought that he could take God's place in the universe. It would be as realistic as me taking the place of the president of the USA. I'm not that stupid, neither is Satan.

He choice to oppose God because in his view God was controlling, and God would not let other creatures have their way. So, the entire history of Satanic Resistance is a history of provoking God to violence and selfish use of power.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

He chose to oppose God because in his view God was controlling, and God would not let other creatures have their way.(Ed. I changed "choice" to "chose")

Why would he have such a view? I think this idea is problematic.

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So, the entire history of Satanic Resistance is a history of provoking God to violence and selfish use of power.

I agree with this comment, which is quite a nice one. I've not thought of this in specifically this way. A nice insight. I've thought in terms of Satan's misrepresenting God's actions as being using power in violent and selfish ways, but your thought is a good one to keep in mind as well.