Anyone else find themselves needing to move on?

[Bravus]

I think in many ways the outcome of the General Conference is a positive thing.

It is very clear that the new President stands very strongly for traditional Adventism in all its manifestations, from recent creationism to huge reliance on EGW and everything else.

That's OK: that seems to be the direction the worldwide church wants to go.

It means, though, that many of us in the 'progressive' (for want of a better label) camp within Adventism are being given a very clear choice: keep on trying to change the church from within, against its will, or leave.

It's clear that our more conservative brethren want us to leave: they have given the invitation loud and clear, here and everywhere else. Our choice is to embrace all of traditional Adventism, or to no longer be Adventists.

I'm afraid that, for me at least, traditional Adventism is no longer an option. Thinking, learning, growing, discussing, reading the Bible and other authors, life experience, study and a heap of other influences have left me with a set of values and beliefs that are simply incompatible with it, and to turn my back on those values would be to turn my back on myself - and also on the light that I firmly believe God has given me.

I'm not sure what the alternative is, though. Is it to create a 'progressive Adventist' breakaway congregation? Most progressive Adventists still believe in the seventh-day sabbath and the Second Coming. The latter allows them to fit into many other churches, but the former makes going to church on Sunday uncomfortable.

I suspect creating such an organisation would also be something fought against by the church as a whole, as well. They would see it as in competition for members and tithes.

It's a quandary, and any light anyone can shed would be very welcome.

Confirmations that indeed we are not welcome, not so much...

[Jeannieb43]

Dear Bravus, I always admire your comments. You're a thoughtful person, and I usually agree with everything you say.

Here, however, I'm thinking that your "need to move on" really means "need to move OUT." And I can't see it that way. Because some of my most revered Biblical scholars and teachers are also of the "progressive" camp, and they don't find it necessary to move out. They just continue supporting the tenets which they can honestly support, and let the other tenets go unattended. In other words, I feel the really important parts of our faith are immutable. The lesser important parts [tradition, actually, for the most part] are not necessary to salvation, and will not become a "hill I want to die on."

I believe God sees my heart. If I don't preach the investigative judgment on the same "timeline" as Ted Wilson does, I firmly believe God looks upon the heart, not upon the outward appearance.

So, I'll just continue worshiping every Sabbath in my church, teaching the Sabbath school lesson when asked to do so, and ministering to the people within my ambit in whatever way I can. I don't feel this makes me a liar, in any way.

I hope you don't mind.

[Stan]

traditional Adventism is thinking, learning, growing, discussing, reading the Bible and other authors, life experience, study and a heap of other influences.

That is what made us a Church and what we need to return to.

We have been hijacked

[Dr. Shane]

It's clear that our more conservative brethren want us to leave

[Bravus]

Jeanie, thanks for your comments. I deliberately set up the thread topic as a question, and your negative answer is 100% as acceptable as a positive answer. I do hope that many will find themselves able to stay in the church and be a positive influence. I'm definitely not encouraging others to leave: the point of the thread is mostly to allow those who *do* feel as I do to say so, and to seek solutions that keep our faith intact. Many people who move out of Adventism move out of Christianity entirely, and that's not my goal. It's a tough one.

Stan, you may well be right. I'm not sure it counts as a hijacking if it happens democratically, though. It appears as though the majority of the world church supports those views and wishes them to be enforced.

Shane, you're one who hasn't told me in so many words to leave, and you've always been a good friend. But there are many others who have said loud and clear that those unlike them are not welcome in the SDA church. Telling the truth about the natural world, for example, is not something I do to 'undermine the teachings of the church', it's something I do because I value the truth. I can't lie about what I see around me in order to keep the peace.

If people ask what I believe, I will tell them. There's the rub. For me I don't think it's honest or viable to be a 'fifth column', in the church but not of it. It wouldn't be my goal to undermine, but telling the truth tends to be revolutionary.

And I'm always aware of the strong possibility that I'm wrong, always seeking truth and evidence and enlightenment. But this also entails the possibility that I was wrong in the past and am more right now. That's part of the problem with conservatism: it snapshots a certain moment in time as 'truth' and sees any movement away from that moment in any direction as apostasy.

[LifeHiscost]

It always, IMO, seems wise to remember that for which I originally became an Adventist. For me it was an answer to a prayer, answered after a pastor couldn't understand why I wouldn't become an Adventist, even though I believed everything he had given in Bible studies.

I had to lay out the fleece, partially as a result of others holding up options for church membership, which at that time appeared to be just as logical as Adventist membership. Since God gave the evidence I needed to decide with the Adventists, I then had to find and maintain the primary goal of the body of believers to which Jesus had led me, which was to carry the Gospel of Jesus to all the word and warn the world of false shepherds that would seduce people to believe and adopt ideas or theologies that didn't originate with God and would eventually lead to death if not relinquished before Jesus came the second time.

That objective God has never removed from the Adventist church, and will not end till it is made clear to all that the tug of war between tradition and the Holy Word has only One to speak with authority for the Truth.

God bless you in your efforts to settle where your witness will not be required to step over the bodies of others in order to be a fulfillment of His will for your life.

"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority."John 7:17 NKJV

Blessings!!

[Tom Wetmore]

In this very context, a friend and former collegue (a decidedly "progressive Adventist") summarized it thusly in a comment/question directed to conservative/traditional/historic Adventists:

"My Church is big enough for you. Is yours big enough for me?"

[cardw]

Hey Bravus,

I'm not recommending anything particular. I went through a stage where I thought there was a place in Adventism for me. I have read that changing an organization from the inside doesn't happen. If you want a new direction or community you have to start over.

I think a saying that reveals a dynamic is when it becomes more painful to stay than to leave the door to leave reveals itself.

My wife and I have found that there are almost unlimited ways to engage with the community around us. I am thankful for many of the lessons I learned from Adventism and it does provide insights that I wouldn't have otherwise. I am also acutely aware of it's limitations.

For me, those limitations became unbearable and I made a peaceful exit. But I had a clear vision of where I was going, so I was able to engage right away with something I really enjoy and provides a service to others.

There are many possibilities. I would encourage you to check with your heart often.

[abelisle]

I told my wife that I'm going to wait and see before I move on if I do. If websites start up like the one that did last week encouraging Adventists to report those who are not holding to the traditional ways, which ironically call for what Ted Wilson's admonished members to do - hold our leaders' feet to the fire, or if church employees have to avow creedal statements or are pushed out of their positions, or if certain types of sermons are mandated, or if our SS quarterlies hunker down and go ultra-conservative - these things will probably push me out.

I still hold that Adventism is closer to the truth than any other denominations I know, so I will resign my positions rather than live as a hypocrite, and find a more progressive church that allows me the freedom to worship as the Spirit speaks to me, not what someone else or the church in their administrative capacity tells me.

Alex (I know one thing for sure - God loves me)

[LifeHiscost]

"My Church is big enough for you. Is yours big enough for me?"

Just an observation about God's body of believers on this earth, as given from these Words. They seem to answer the above comment/question.

"Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."Hebrews 7:25 NKJV

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

John 14:5:6 KJV

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."1 John 4:2 KJV

"“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves."

Regards!!

[phkrause]

I think in many ways the outcome of the General Conference is a positive thing.

It is very clear that the new President stands very strongly for traditional Adventism in all its manifestations, from recent creationism to huge reliance on EGW and everything else.

That's OK: that seems to be the direction the worldwide church wants to go.

It means, though, that many of us in the 'progressive' (for want of a better label) camp within Adventism are being given a very clear choice: keep on trying to change the church from within, against its will, or leave.

It's clear that our more conservative brethren want us to leave: they have given the invitation loud and clear, here and everywhere else. Our choice is to embrace all of traditional Adventism, or to no longer be Adventists.

I'm afraid that, for me at least, traditional Adventism is no longer an option. Thinking, learning, growing, discussing, reading the Bible and other authors, life experience, study and a heap of other influences have left me with a set of values and beliefs that are simply incompatible with it, and to turn my back on those values would be to turn my back on myself - and also on the light that I firmly believe God has given me.

I'm not sure what the alternative is, though. Is it to create a 'progressive Adventist' breakaway congregation? Most progressive Adventists still believe in the seventh-day sabbath and the Second Coming. The latter allows them to fit into many other churches, but the former makes going to church on Sunday uncomfortable.

I suspect creating such an organisation would also be something fought against by the church as a whole, as well. They would see it as in competition for members and tithes.

It's a quandary, and any light anyone can shed would be very welcome.

Confirmations that indeed we are not welcome, not so much...

No Bravus I don't feel the need to move on. God did give us minds to use, so you use it differently than someone else. You need to look at the whole picture, which from your post above looks like you've been doing. God loves each and every one of us. I think and from your posts you seem to pretty much believe the Bible or except it as the word of God. Obviously your of the personality that just needs more evidence than just excepting someone's word. Than there are those that just except by faith certain beliefs and I believe God has room for us all. Only God knows where are hearts lie and in which direction we are headed. Others can judge this or that, but only God can judge our salvation. All I know is that when he comes to get us I'm definitely going to look you up, cause in my book you will be there with the rest of us.

[Liz]

Bravus, I think I understand your quandary, as my family has had "some" of this same discussion. Unfortunately we haven't come up with a good alternative. Just know that you are not alone.

[LifeHiscost]

No Bravus I don't feel the need to move on. God did give us minds to use, so you use it differently than someone else. You need to look at the whole picture, which from your post above looks like you've been doing. God loves each and every one of us. I think and from your posts you seem to pretty much believe the Bible or except it as the word of God. Obviously your of the personality that just needs more evidence than just excepting someone's word. Than there are those that just except by faith certain beliefs and I believe God has room for us all. Only God knows where are hearts lie and in which direction we are headed. Others can judge this or that, but only God can judge our salvation. All I know is that when he comes to get us I'm definitely going to look you up, cause in my book you will be there with the rest of us.

TU TU

Good post, PK, but I feel uncomfortable in determining that someone's name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Even my own name, while I'm assured Jesus' shed blood has washed away all of my sins, I prefer to defer all absolutes be given over to the Savior, which I feel eternal life is an absolute.

Nevertheless, it is only up to me to rest in Jesus' care through His promises, for myself and for others.

Maybe that's being nitpicky, but I feel safer knowing my eternal home, as well as others, is in Jesus' hands and not necessarily determined by my limited understanding or knowledge.

"Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."1 Corinthians 10:12 NKJV

Blessings!

[phkrause]

[teresaq]

...If websites start up like the one that did last week encouraging Adventists to report those who are not holding to the traditional ways,...

whoa!! for real?

[abelisle]

Here's a link:

http://www.atoday.com/content/mysterious-adventist-web-site-%E2%80%9Cfrozen%E2%80%9D

Alex

[teresaq]

wow!! well there were concerns expressed elsewhere that this could happen...that the "ultras" would come out in full-force. perhaps his other concerns will come to pass also.

i guess if we thought things were bad in the church before, we apparently aint seen nothing yet! looks like the sda version of the inquisition is coming into full force!

[Woody]

Yes teresa ... I fear the election of Ted is giving cover and strength to the ultras and nut cases. I fear they will be coming out of the woodwork.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Well, it's not a mysterious Adventist website. It's owned by Ang Hnu. Here's what he says:

Quote:

...we are not labelling anyone "apostates". That category describes people who have abandoned Jesus Christ and the faith completely and are outside the community of faith. They are not our concern in this ministry. Our ministry targets wolves in sheep clothing and those who need encouragement or a prod to make up their mind where they stand.

And the idea of lists strikes as as McCarthyite or Nixon-ish. We are not compiling lists of anything or anyone. We will simply ask that conferences, churches and the church at large hold accountable people in church employ and church sponsored, approved and affilicated entities that teach, write, advocate doctrines and lifestyles contrary to settled Adventist beliefs, positions and teachings. Ordinary church members are not our targets, except when their writings and public pronouncements attack or smear the church, in which case it is only fair to make their local congregations aware.

taken from their forum: source

[Woody]

thanks Rudywoofs. That is just sick though.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I agree with you...

[Woody]

After a quick look at their site .... I notice they make a list of "Faithful Adventist" . ON that list is the name of:

Dr Sam Pipim www.drpipim.org/

Now we can understand why this group is so radical.

[Woody]

Guess who's on the GOOD :

[abelisle]

Well, it's not a mysterious Adventist website. It's owned by Ang Hnu. Here's what he says:

Quote:

...we are not labelling anyone "apostates". That category describes people who have abandoned Jesus Christ and the faith completely and are outside the community of faith. They are not our concern in this ministry. Our ministry targets wolves in sheep clothing and those who need encouragement or a prod to make up their mind where they stand.

And the idea of lists strikes as as McCarthyite or Nixon-ish. We are not compiling lists of anything or anyone. We will simply ask that conferences, churches and the church at large hold accountable people in church employ and church sponsored, approved and affilicated entities that teach, write, advocate doctrines and lifestyles contrary to settled Adventist beliefs, positions and teachings. Ordinary church members are not our targets, except when their writings and public pronouncements attack or smear the church, in which case it is only fair to make their local congregations aware.

taken from their forum: source

Thanks Pam. I sure hope this isn't an ominous harbinger of things to come.

Alex

[teresaq]

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yes. the sda inquisition.