Islam, Christianity, and religion prevent reconciliation

[cardw]

Here is an interview with Sam Harris on the problem of religion and how it blocks various groups from resolving their differences...

Sam Harris Interview

This really sums up one of the major problems with religion.

[fccool]

Here is an interview with Sam Harris on the problem of religion and how it blocks various groups from resolving their differences...

This really sums up one of the major problems with religion.

You know what's Ironic about the argument of a religious person and agnostic? It's an argument between two people who can't prove either way, yet each one claiming superiority of their views over other.

Humility stems from understanding that we are born blind to past. I.E. , we can't know many past events with absolute certainty. You'd think that various historical evidence for Alexander's existence existed, yet such is the problem of myth... it's self-serving.

Historian Pierre Briant said ones "Although more than twenty of his contemporaries chronicled Alexander's life and campaigns, none of these texts survive in original form. Many letters and speeches attributed to Alexander are ancient forgeries or reconstructions inspired by imagination or political motives. The little solid documentation we possess from Alexander's own time is mainly to be found in stone inscriptions from the Greek cities of Europe and Asia."

As theists, I don't think we should use the evidence anymore than Freud uses "evidence" for existence of "libido" and "ego" as driving forces of human experience.

Religion is mostly philosophical rather than existential. It deals with ultimate reality of our being on hypothetical level that we believe, yet can't prove.

What I see on the agnostic side is rather a triumph from lack of evidence. In this case we are on the same level mentally and logically, as to whether we choose to risk and believe something that we can't see, but something that deals with philosophical maxims that perhaps work out for the best... or choose to find explanations outside of the realm of supernatural.

I think that the important point that the interview merely glances over, and I do appreciate non-Richard Dawkins approach to this issue, is that we can simply argue against violence rather than dismiss religious possibility.

I have a friend who was diagnosed with brain tumors and have possibly less than a year to live. I always wondered how would I react if I was in her position. What would I think about, what would I believe or hoped for. The point being is that we all live on this side of life, where we can only speculate of what happens next or what was before. Biblical account makes an extraordinary promise that for many is worth believing.

I'm a big fan of Russian prose. One of my childhood favorites is "Scarlet Sails" by Alexander Grin. It's perhaps relatively unknown in the West, but the story is about a really poor young girl who lives with her father. So, one day, she encounters a man who tells her that in the future a prince will come on the ship with scarlet sails and would marry her.

She grows up telling that story to everyone, with people thinking that she is crazy. So, one day a young captain who is a son of a wealthy father, walks around in the woods, finds her asleep and falls in love. He tries to learn more about her in town, and find out her story and people making fun of her for what she believes.

So, he sails and spends a fortune on buying as much red material as he can find. Makes them into sails, and with crowds watching from the shore, vindicates the reputation of his future wife.

The point being is that no matter how crazy and outlandish story may be, there's a chance that it will be true on one level or another. I can't really argue from the standpoint of historical veracity, yet I can certainly argue from the philosophical perspective and the ideals that underline Biblical narrative. For me, it's something worth believing in.

[fccool]

What really strikes me odd about Advenstism is that we really hardly learned anything from 1983, and subsequent 1984 march, and 1984 October experiences. If you look closely at the Millerate movement, it operated on rather stretching assumptions that they imposed on prophetic interpretation.

Today, we make very similar assumptions that are rather specific, and we impose them on a prophecy that is rather not very specific. And we are as sure about these specifics coming about as Millerates were sure in 1800s. Thus people in the Adventist movement view the world from the perspective of Papal conspiracy. I.E. every economic or political events that take place are interpreted in light of enforcement of a very specific religious view - Catholic view.

[phkrause]

What really strikes me odd about Advenstism is that we really hardly learned anything from 1983, and subsequent 1984 march, and 1984 October experiences. If you look closely at the Millerate movement, it operated on rather stretching assumptions that they imposed on prophetic interpretation.

Today, we make very similar assumptions that are rather specific, and we impose them on a prophecy that is rather not very specific. And we are as sure about these specifics coming about as Millerates were sure in 1800s. Thus people in the Adventist movement view the world from the perspective of Papal conspiracy. I.E. every economic or political events that take place are interpreted in light of enforcement of a very specific religious view - Catholic view.

I believe fccool you meant 1843, 44? And not 1983, 44 correct? I guess I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time. :)

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Here is an interview with Sam Harris on the problem of religion and how it blocks various groups from resolving their differences...

This really sums up one of the major problems with religion.

You know what's Ironic about the argument of a religious person and agnostic? It's an argument between two people who can't prove either way, yet each one claiming superiority of their views over other.

[fccool]

Quote:

Today we can certainly look at religion being the dividing line between various groups who both express themselves through violence....

You may have a point here. If we establish an ethic that teaches that violence is wrong even if your god or the book about your god orders it then we may have a common rally point.

You obviously trying to point to the apparent double-standard of God when it comes to violent solutions that He resorts to.

If we define violence in context of:

Violence is the expression of physical or verbal force against self or other, compelling action against one's will on pain of being hurt

Then you'd eventually have to set the same double-standard to any functional human society that delegates the function of initiation of force (violence) for non-compliance with its laws.

Violence is not really the sole domain for religious view. In fact, I think it should be rather obvious that violence is neither advocated, nor it is prescribed outside of the divinely supervised justice. The common theme among agnostics is that God of Bible is inherently violent, and uses violence as intensive for submission. Yet, this view chooses to avoid the context of justice as prescribed by God through violence.

You may likewise argue on different level that parents are violent to their children, and that governments are violent to their citizens... from the same perspective of understanding violence of God. Is God violent? I certainly think that this characteristic is inseparable from love. It's unfortunate, but that's the reality of our being in light of choices to commit violence that can only be stopped using violence.

If I love my wife, then this ideal is inseparable from the ideal of inflicting reasonable amount of harm to a person who would harm her. Yet, what if that person would never stop thinking of harming her? What if that person makes it their goal, and would make it a goal to raise his/her children in likewise manner?

If we accept that there is a God, and that in fact He is a loving God, the we must equally accept that love is inseparable from violence.

But, eventually, if we are to accept the claims of Christianity, then we essentially have accept the claims of God who decided not to answer violently in response to violence and injustice. Therefore this seems to be the pattern that we observe today, of God choosing to work through ideology rather than direct intervention by means of violence.

While, I certainly can't avoid the heritage of violence on behalf of God, yet I can likewise recognize that the paradigm shift to tolerance from violence that we see in NT. If we are to accept Biblical narrative as true, then we have to likewise consider the ideals of divine knowledge extending beyond our immediate reach.

Let's look at it from perspective of a hypothetical example. A wife and her kids are playing in the yard. The cop all of a sudden pulls up and for no parent to wife reason shoots the husband. She is rather shocked by this violent act and does not understand why would an officer who is supposed to protect them from harm would shoot her husband under such circumstances. So, she is grieving for a couple hours, while cursing the day that the officer was born.

But, perhaps it was revealed to her that a suicide note was intercepted detailing the husband unhappy with his life, and his desire to take all of his family out. So, at the time of the officer's execution, he was pulling out a gun attempting to do just that.

A bit more details may reveal the true nature of things. From our perspective, things may look quite a bit different.

[cardw]

Quote:

Today we can certainly look at religion being the dividing line between various groups who both express themselves through violence....

You may have a point here. If we establish an ethic that teaches that violence is wrong even if your god or the book about your god orders it then we may have a common rally point.

You obviously trying to point to the apparent double-standard of God when it comes to violent solutions that He resorts to.

If we define violence in context of:

Violence is the expression of physical or verbal force against self or other, compelling action against one's will on pain of being hurt

Then you'd eventually have to set the same double-standard to any functional human society that delegates the function of initiation of force (violence) for non-compliance with its laws.

Violence is not really the sole domain for religious view. In fact, I think it should be rather obvious that violence is neither advocated, nor it is prescribed outside of the divinely supervised justice. The common theme among agnostics is that God of Bible is inherently violent, and uses violence as intensive for submission. Yet, this view chooses to avoid the context of justice as prescribed by God through violence.

[cardw]

Let's look at it from perspective of a hypothetical example. A wife and her kids are playing in the yard. The cop all of a sudden pulls up and for no parent to wife reason shoots the husband. She is rather shocked by this violent act and does not understand why would an officer who is supposed to protect them from harm would shoot her husband under such circumstances. So, she is grieving for a couple hours, while cursing the day that the officer was born.

But, perhaps it was revealed to her that a suicide note was intercepted detailing the husband unhappy with his life, and his desire to take all of his family out. So, at the time of the officer's execution, he was pulling out a gun attempting to do just that.

A bit more details may reveal the true nature of things. From our perspective, things may look quite a bit different.

The problem is that your god has a lot more options than a policeman and if all that god can come up with is a confusing collection of books that outlines a murky heavily interpreted narrative that even Christians can't agree on, then I see no evidence of a superior mind. If the best solution that god can come up with is to violently torture everyone who just wants to live their lives in peace but doesn't see the sense in giving their lives to Jesus because there isn't enough evidence then what crazy kind of god does that?

I see the same old iron age "logic" that I observe in every ancient tribal religion. It is a narrative the justifies the use of violence for the survival of the tribe.

[Vryant27]

I agree with you...

[fccool]

Well, I don't really see it that way. I do firmly believe that God simply lets those who decide to reject Him. You are aware of Adventist belief in annihilation right?

[cardw]

Well, I don't really see it that way. I do firmly believe that God simply lets those who decide to reject Him. You are aware of Adventist belief in annihilation right?

I am aware of the Adventist belief in annihilation. It really doesn't matter because I still don't see the use of raising all those people from the dead simply to burn them up again.

What a way to start the new earth. Let's watch god roast everyone including those who didn't believe because there simply wasn't enough evidence even though they lived lives of giving, love, creativity, and joy.

I can't imagine god needing to roast Sam Harris. He is a reasonable, articulate, and soft spoken man. He shuns violence and speaks from evidence.

If you remember Ellen White states that those who condemned Christ will burn a little longer. What lesson do they have to learn? What about forgiveness? Is god turning the other cheek? I guess god doesn't have to be a good example because he's, well, god. That crazy guy. Who can understand him?

Yeah those unbelievers, scoffers, and intellectuals. They deserve to burn for their prideful boasting and dependence on their own reason. Because god likes those who simply believe even though it makes no sense.

I don't know about you, but I can't suspend disbelief that much.

[Bravus]

Not to mention that EGW modifies the annihalation thing by saying that the greatest sinners will burn longest in the lake of fire. So not infinite torture, just a bit of torture. Not sure it makes it that much better.

[John317]

I think it makes perfectly good sense that people receive according to their works. In other words, the more evil a person has been, the more punishment is meted out to him. God is a God of justice, and justice requires that people such as Hitler or Stalin or Nero receive more punishment than someone who never tried to hurt anyone. Some people will die as in a moment whereas others will suffer much longer.

According to Ellen White-- and it is supported by Bible-- God allows His intelligent creatures to help determine the punishment that will be meted out to the wicked.

If we understand God's infinite love for His creatures, and the price He paid to save each one, I don't think we'll have a problem with God's judgments. Their punishment will not be because of hatred or a desire to get back at them, but rather because of the requirement of justice.

[cardw]

I think it makes perfectly good sense that people receive according to their works. In other words, the more evil a person has been, the more punishment is meted out to him. God is a God of justice, and justice requires that people such as Hitler or Stalin or Nero receive more punishment than someone who never tried to hurt anyone. Some people will die as in a moment whereas others will suffer much longer.

[John317]

I think it makes perfectly good sense that people receive according to their works. In other words, the more evil a person has been, the more punishment is meted out to him. God is a God of justice, and justice requires that people such as Hitler or Stalin or Nero receive more punishment than someone who never tried to hurt anyone. Some people will die as in a moment whereas others will suffer much longer.

Originally Posted By: cardw

That pretty much negates the philosophy of Jesus and any resemblance to a higher ethical system.

It is actually the very thing that Jesus Christ taught.

I'm not saying that Jesus taught that His followers should follow those principles on this earth during this time.

But Jesus taught that He would reward everyone according to his work.

Look at these teachings of Christ:

Rev. 22:12

"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done."

Rev. 20:12

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

Rev. 16:5-6

And I heard the angel in charge of the waters say,

"Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was,

for you brought these judgments.

[6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,

and you have given them blood to drink.

It is what they deserve!"

Jesus Himself taught:

Matthew 26:24

"The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

Matthew 25:41-46

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, [43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' [44] Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' [45] Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' [46] And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

John 8:24

"I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."

Matthew 21:43-44

"Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. [44] And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him."

[Tom Wetmore]

I think it makes perfectly good sense that people receive according to their works. In other words, the more evil a person has been, the more punishment is meted out to him. God is a God of justice, and justice requires that people such as Hitler or Stalin or Nero receive more punishment than someone who never tried to hurt anyone. Some people will die as in a moment whereas others will suffer much longer.

According to Ellen White-- and it is supported by Bible-- God allows His intelligent creatures to help determine the punishment that will be meted out to the wicked.

If we understand God's infinite love for His creatures, and the price He paid to save each one, I don't think we'll have a problem with God's judgments. Their punishment will not be because of hatred or a desire to get back at them, but rather because of the requirement of justice.

The problem is that we are framing God's judgment and justice in human terms. God is bigger and better than that. Upon a closer reading of Scripture, God's justice is not so much about punishing evil-doers as it is about setting things right, fixing the damage done, healing the wounds of sin. God's justice is about restoration, a new creation, not retribution. Divine justice and mercy are one and the same. His justice is all about showing mercy to the victims of sin.

"Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy." - Psalms 82:3

“This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another." - Zechariah 7:9

[Woody]

TU Woody likes

[BobRyan]

Jesus taught that He would reward everyone according to his work.

Look at these teachings of Christ:

Rev. 22:12

"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done."

Rev. 20:12

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

Rev. 16:5-6

And I heard the angel in charge of the waters say,

"Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was,

for you brought these judgments.

[6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,

and you have given them blood to drink.

It is what they deserve!"

Jesus Himself taught:

Matthew 26:24

"The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

Matthew 25:41-46

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, [43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' [44] Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' [45] Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' [46] And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

John 8:24

"I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."

Matthew 21:43-44

"Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. [44] And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him."

That is true. A very Biblically correct position.

Even more so when you consider Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter.. but he who DOES the will of My Father... he who hears these words of mine AND OBEYS".

In Roman 2 we see that principle played out in great detail. "Not the hearers of the Law are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justiFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of ALL"

In 2Cor 5:10 we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in the body whether they be good or EVIL.

As John says in 1John 2- the One who SAYS he knows Christ ought to WALK as Christ walked - and if they do not do it - they are not telling the truth about knowing Christ.

In 11John 3 he goes so far as to say "be not deceived the one that does righteousness IS righteous".

in Christ,

Bob

[doug yowell]

The problem is that we are framing God's judgment and justice in human terms. God is bigger and better than that. Upon a closer reading of Scripture, God's justice is not so much about punishing evil-doers as it is about setting things right, fixing the damage done, healing the wounds of sin. God's justice is about restoration, a new creation, not retribution. Divine justice and mercy are one and the same. His justice is all about showing mercy to the victims of sin.

"Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy." - Psalms 82:3

“This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another." - Zechariah 7:9

Or.......?Sorry, I'm looking for the fit.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: John317

I think it makes perfectly good sense that people receive according to their works. In other words, the more evil a person has been, the more punishment is meted out to him. God is a God of justice, and justice requires that people such as Hitler or Stalin or Nero receive more punishment than someone who never tried to hurt anyone. Some people will die as in a moment whereas others will suffer much longer.

Originally Posted By: cardw

That pretty much negates the philosophy of Jesus and any resemblance to a higher ethical system.

It is actually the very thing that Jesus Christ taught.

I'm not saying that Jesus taught that His followers should follow those principles on this earth during this time.

But Jesus taught that He would reward everyone according to his work.

Look at these teachings of Christ:

Rev. 22:12

"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done."

Rev. 20:12

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

Rev. 16:5-6

And I heard the angel in charge of the waters say,

"Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was,

for you brought these judgments.

[6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,

and you have given them blood to drink.

It is what they deserve!"

Jesus Himself taught:

Matthew 26:24

"The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

Matthew 25:41-46

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, [43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' [44] Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' [45] Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' [46] And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

John 8:24

"I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."

Matthew 21:43-44

"Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. [44] And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him."

I think that this verifies the statement that normally good people do good things and evil people do evil things, but only religion makes good people do evil things.

This also reveals the problem of using the Bible as an authority on goodness and love. It creates justification for the most horrible acts of cruelty.

[Tom Wetmore]

Or.......?Sorry, I'm looking for the fit.

??

What size do you need?

[doug yowell]

[

The problem is that we are framing God's judgment and justice in human terms. God is bigger and better than that. Upon a closer reading of Scripture, God's justice is not so much about punishing evil-doers as it is about setting things right, fixing the damage done, healing the wounds of sin. God's justice is about restoration, a new creation, not retribution. Divine justice and mercy are one and the same. His justice is all about showing mercy to the victims of sin.

"Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy." - Psalms 82:3

“This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another." - Zechariah 7:9

The "or" should have been "or what?"(are You gonna do about it?)Trying to figure out how God's justice can be showing mercy to the victims of sin(everybody)but not punitive retribution for those responsible(everybody)for the victimization.The last two quotes are commands for us to act justly. What happens if we don't?

[John317]

The problem is that we are framing God's judgment and justice in human terms.

I'm trying to frame the judgment in terms of the Bible which I believe God inspired. That's better than accepting other people's guesses about what will happen.

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

God is bigger and better than that.

I agree God is better than human views of justice, but in what sense is God bigger and better than the special revelation He's communicated to His prophets? We can be sure there will be many surpises and things we have to unlearn, but don't you believe the Bible is a reliable record of what God will do in relation to evil?

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Upon a closer reading of Scripture, God's justice is not so much about punishing evil-doers as it is about setting things right, fixing the damage done, healing the wounds of sin.

Both aspects are an essential part of Scripture. The punishment of the wicked take up quite a bit of the NT, almost as much as there is about the Sabbath.

But yes, I do agree that the main picture we have is of a God who will set things right. However, there's a real sense in which God can never make up for all the pain and suffering that many have gone through. Wounds will be healed, for sure, but it will never make right the torture of innocent children. Millions of small children have been tortured for days on end by monsters, many of whom were the children's own parents, before being killed in the most horrible ways imaginable. These evil things are simply part of the cost of human freedom. God foresaw them and yet obviously deemed it worth while to go ahead and create human beings anyway.

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

God's justice is about restoration, a new creation, not retribution. Divine justice and mercy are one and the same. His justice is all about showing mercy to the victims of sin.

Both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy are clear that the vast majority of people who've ever lived will not be saved. There will be millions saved, yes, but we should never forget that most of humanity-- many billions-- will be lost eternally. Rev. 20: 8; cf 13:8; 14:3.

Originally Posted By: Tom Whitmore

"Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy." - Psalms 82:3

“This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another." - Zechariah 7:9

Yes, it's the duty and responsibility of human beings to do those things now.

This is a major theme of all the OT prophets. One of my favorite is the prophet Amos:

Amos 5:14-15

Seek good, and not evil,

that you may live;

and so the Lord, the God of hosts, will be with you,

as you have said.

[15] Hate evil, and love good,

and establish justice in the gate;

it may be that the Lord, the God of hosts,

will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.

[Tom Wetmore]

I trust that in God's mind the whole idea of who are the real victims of sin is far less myopically muddled...

[doug yowell]

I trust that in God's mind the whole idea of who are the real victims of sin is far less myopically muddled...

Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit has so far failed in His duty to impart "the mind of Christ" to those who "have received Him"? You're sounding more and more like a Biblical skeptic.What,and whose "muddling" are you referring to?