Islam, Christianity, and religion prevent reconciliation

[Tom Wetmore]

We can be sure there will be many surpises and things we have to unlearn...

On this we agree. Perhaps where we diverge is that the Bible as a reliable record is still written in human terms and interpreted and understood in human terms. And I think we will be very surprised and have to substantially revise (unlearn) our interpretation when we witness what God does in the end to rectify the problem of evil.

Originally Posted By: John317

But yes, I do agree that the main picture we have is of a God who will set things right. However, there's a real sense in which God can never make up for all the pain and suffering that many have gone through. Wounds will be healed, for sure, but it will never make right the torture of innocent children.

Where is your faith? What will he do for the Innocent child tortured to death so that that child may live in peace for eternity free of the tortuously haunting memory of the nightmare of that child's brief existence in this life? I honestly do not know how, but I believe that God can and will make up for all of the pain and suffering and make all things right and new again. As I have said before, I accept Paul's words on this mystery that we will all be changed to remove that sting of sin and death.

[Overaged]

Here is an interview with Sam Harris on the problem of religion and how it blocks various groups from resolving their differences...

Sam Harris Interview

This really sums up one of the major problems with religion.

Ha ha! "The problem with religion!" As if there are no problems with the rest of the world involving "reconciliation;" whatever that means here.

Being a "nonbeliever" is a religion too.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: John317

We can be sure there will be many surpises and things we have to unlearn...

On this we agree. Perhaps where we diverge is that the Bible as a reliable record is still written in human terms and interpreted and understood in human terms. And I think we will be very surprised and have to substantially revise (unlearn) our interpretation when we witness what God does in the end to rectify the problem of evil.

We won't have to "unlearn" the Bible. Where is your faith?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Here is an interview with Sam Harris on the problem of religion and how it blocks various groups from resolving their differences...

Sam Harris Interview

This really sums up one of the major problems with religion.

Ha ha! "The problem with religion!" As if there are no problems with the rest of the world involving "reconciliation;" whatever that means here.

[antcreations]

COEXIST.

Islam. Pacisfism. Gay Rights. Judaism. Paganism. Taosim. Christianity.

COEXIST.

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]quote=cardw]Here is an interview with Sam Harris on the problem of religion and how it blocks various groups from resolving their differences...

This really sums up one of the major problems with religion.

/quote]Ha ha! "The problem with religion!" As if there are no problems with the rest of the world involving "reconciliation;" whatever that means here./quote]

It seems that the rest of the world is able to admit that it has problems. It's religion that seems to think it's perfect. That's why there are problems with reconciliation.

The Religion Of NO GOD' date=' as opposed to The Religion of Know God. I know which one I prefer.

"As for me and my house; we will serve the Lord."

I don't have enough faith for your religion.

PS The Linux Dictionary I have on my computer gives the following, as one of several definitions for the word "religion:"

Quote:

4. Strictness of fidelity in conforming to any practice, as if it were an enjoined rule of conduct. [R.'] [1913 Webster]

The religion of NO GOD has produced it's own little remnant; IMHO. Your religion is whatever you spend the most time and energy doing in your life.

[fccool]

Being a "nonbeliever" is a religion too.

Religion is an attempt to re-link and re-conciliate with divine. Look up the etymology of the work. So, what you in fact saying is that not attempting to do so is also an attempt to do so?

You can't frame non-believing in the same religious terms that we frame believing. I just does not make sense. It's like calling an act of not playing some sport ... a sport.

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]

Being a "nonbeliever" is a religion too. /quote]

Religion is an attempt to re-link and re-conciliate with divine. Look up the etymology of the work. So, what you in fact saying is that not attempting to do so is also an attempt to do so?

You can't frame non-believing in the same religious terms that we frame believing. I just does not make sense. It's like calling an act of not playing some sport ... a sport.

The Linux Dictionary I have on my computer gives the following, as one of several definitions for the word "religion:"

Quote:

4. Strictness of fidelity in conforming to any practice, as if it were an enjoined rule of conduct. [R.] [1913 Webster]

The religion of NO GOD has produced it's own little remnant; IMHO. Your religion is whatever you spend the most time and energy doing in your life.

[Tom Wetmore]

We won't have to "unlearn" the Bible. Where is your faith?

Read more carefully before you react. I said we will have to unlearn our interpretation...

My faith is not in the Bible, but in God. It is not what I know (or think I know), it is who I know that makes all the difference. What I know is in my human brain that is flawed and sin damaged. The Who that saves me is not. He alone is worthy.

[cardw]

The Religion Of NO GOD, as opposed to The Religion of Know God. I know which one I prefer.

"As for me and my house; we will serve the Lord."

I don't have enough faith for your religion.

PS The Linux Dictionary I have on my computer gives the following, as one of several definitions for the word "religion:"

Quote:

4. Strictness of fidelity in conforming to any practice, as if it were an enjoined rule of conduct. [R.] [1913 Webster]

The religion of NO GOD has produced it's own little remnant; IMHO. Your religion is whatever you spend the most time and energy doing in your life.

There is nothing to conform to if you are an atheist. If one doesn't believe in the Bible one's practice of ethics has to be based on something like secular humanism, reason, pain/pleasure, survival, etc. etc. There is no atheist doctrine or ethic.

It's like calling bald a hair color or classifying a hobby by what you don't do, for example non-stamp collecting. It's simply ridiculous.

Educate yourself on the world views you are being critical of, otherwise no one is going to take your seriously.

[antcreations]

My faith is not in the Bible, but in God. It is not what I know (or think I know), it is who I know that makes all the difference. What I know is in my human brain that is flawed and sin damaged. The Who that saves me is not. He alone is worthy.

I love this quote! I shall use this as my Facebook status for the day!

[SivartM]

I just finished Samir Selmnaovic's "It's Really All About God: Reflections of a Muslim Atheist Jewish Christian". It was really good and I think that if you haven't read it yet, you should. :)

[Overaged]

If it's God's Word, then it's God speaking to us. One of the best ways to get to know Him...(John 17:3)

[cardw]

I just finished Samir Selmnaovic's "It's Really All About God: Reflections of a Muslim Atheist Jewish Christian". It was really good and I think that if you haven't read it yet, you should.

I've read a bio on Samir and a review of his book. I like the fact that there is language out there to move religions to neutral non violent ground.

Unfortunately it's the orthodox who control the leadership and the ones who will call those like Samir heretics because they want to retain the violence. If you let go of the threat of violence you lose a highly motivating reason to seek their god and their whole system falls apart.

I don't believe you can change a system within. I don't think you can separate the message of love from the violence in the Bible. It will always be waiting there to be used by those who want simple answers of punishment and reward. The stories of the Bible are about punishment and reward.

I completely understand how those like Anne Rice have found that being labelled a Christian represents violence and bigotry. If religion is to be a way to seek god, then let it do that only.

If we are to determine how we should live our lives, let us do it from reason and compassion. Using books as authoritarian sources of truth is sub human and is essentially the worship of language. It denies the great potential of the human heart to love and empathize.

There has never been room in Christianity for the moderate. If there is a voice of moderation then it's not loud enough and I think it's time for that voice to be heard outside of religion.

If you are going to appeal to the story and myths of religion then take the message from the story and recognize that these are myths. Don't try to retain the bible as any kind of accurate representation of any real god. At best the Bible represents the history of thought experiments trying understand why we are here and our purpose.

Trying to figure if there is a god is difficult enough. Trying to figure out what god wants seems to lead to violence.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

hmm. If the Bible is merely a collection of myths, then the God of the Old Testament isn't real. There are some historical things in the New Testament that can be verified by non-Christian historians, such as Josephus.

Usually violence happens when *people* don't get what *they* want....but, granted, some seem to think what they want is what God wants. Kind of circular reasoning by them, I think.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

We won't have to "unlearn" the Bible. Where is your faith?

Read more carefully before you react. I said we will have to unlearn our interpretation...

My faith is not in the Bible, but in God. It is not what I know (or think I know), it is who I know that makes all the difference. What I know is in my human brain that is flawed and sin damaged. The Who that saves me is not. He alone is worthy.

This is where I respectfully disagree. The only way any person could be flawless is if they knew everything. It's the nature of being human that we make mistakes. It's how we learn. I don't see any other way around the fact that if you have limited knowledge and skills you are going to make mistakes. What purpose does it serve to beat ourselves up about it with language of unworthy and sin damaged?

I rather focus on methods of navigating the unknown as skillfully as possible and accept the fact that any being who lacks full knowledge is going to make mistakes. You can even make mistakes by doing nothing. It's a fixed game. You can't win the no mistake game. People try and end up being filled with guilt and self loathing.

It's flawed world view. It's a waste of time to try and determine who is worthy or not. Worthy of what? Worship? Does god have an ego? How does it help us to keep saying Holy Holy Holy all the time?

I think it's important to admit one's own faults, not because it achieves some value of being humble, but because if I lie to myself about my faults I will continue to suffer the results of those poor practices and decisions. This simply works without being burdened down with all the shame language.

[cardw]

hmm. If the Bible is merely a collection of myths, then the God of the Old Testament isn't real. There are some historical things in the New Testament that can be verified by non-Christian historians, such as Josephus.

[Overaged]

People try and end up being filled with guilt and self loathing.

It's flawed world view. It's a waste of time to try and determine who is worthy or not. Worthy of what? Worship? Does god have an ego? How does it help us to keep saying Holy Holy Holy all the time?

I think it's important to admit one's own faults, not because it achieves some value of being humble, but because if I lie to myself about my faults I will continue to suffer the results of those poor practices and decisions. This simply works without being burdened down with all the shame language.

Calling it all "shame language" works when one wants to deny God's existence, or smear His character. But "I love the Lord because He has heard my voice..." (Psalms 116:1) He is worthy to be praised for God has sent His own Son to suffer and die FOR ME. (John 3:16). "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ; for it is THE POWER OF GOD unto salvation." Almost all of my life I thought I was abandoned by God in all my trials and tragedies; I thought that that one set of footprints I could see were mine, until the day when I realized that they were His footprints, and that it was He Who carried me.

[Overaged]

If we are to determine how we should live our lives, let us do it from reason and compassion. Using books as authoritarian sources of truth is sub human and is essentially the worship of language. It denies the great potential of the human heart to love and empathize.

If you are going to appeal to the story and myths of religion then take the message from the story and recognize that these are myths. Don't try to retain the bible as any kind of accurate representation of any real god. At best the Bible represents the history of thought experiments trying understand why we are here and our purpose.

Trying to figure if there is a god is difficult enough. Trying to figure out what god wants seems to lead to violence.

Tring to figure out if there is a God is the easy part; and following His will is also no mystery; for Jesus has promised: "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Mat 11:30), and "All things work together for good IF one loves Jesus..." (Romans 8:28).

We can trust that God is somehow working out our own best good no matter what we are going through - but only if we love Jesus, and we must know Him to love Him..."the potential of the human" is to "know in whom I have believed;" and for the heart to soar through the dark clouds of discouragement and problems and to burst through to the glorious sunlight of His marvellous grace..

Calling God's Word "myths" "fables" and the like is denying the following truth:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Many who fight against God wish to deny and avoid this discernment; and so they will war against Him in whom we live and move and have our being. There is a promise in God's Holy Word for every single objection you could ever raise for the next thousand years...

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

If we are to determine how we should live our lives, let us do it from reason and compassion. Using books as authoritarian sources of truth is sub human and is essentially the worship of language. It denies the great potential of the human heart to love and empathize.

If you are going to appeal to the story and myths of religion then take the message from the story and recognize that these are myths. Don't try to retain the bible as any kind of accurate representation of any real god. At best the Bible represents the history of thought experiments trying understand why we are here and our purpose.

Trying to figure if there is a god is difficult enough. Trying to figure out what god wants seems to lead to violence.

Tring to figure out if there is a God is the easy part;

[Overaged]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: cardw

If we are to determine how we should live our lives, let us do it from reason and compassion. Using books as authoritarian sources of truth is sub human and is essentially the worship of language. It denies the great potential of the human heart to love and empathize.

If you are going to appeal to the story and myths of religion then take the message from the story and recognize that these are myths. Don't try to retain the bible as any kind of accurate representation of any real god. At best the Bible represents the history of thought experiments trying understand why we are here and our purpose.

"The Bible (God's Holy Word) Strengthens the Intellect.

If the Bible were studied as it should be, men would become strong in intellect. The subjects treated upon in the Word of God, the dignified simplicity of its utterance, the noble themes which it presents to the mind, develop faculties in man which cannot otherwise be developed. In the Bible a boundless field is opened for the imagination. The student will come from a contemplation of its grand themes, from association with its lofty imagery, more pure and elevated in thought and feeling than if he had spent the time reading any work of mere human origin, to say nothing of those of a trifling character. Youthful minds fail to reach their noblest development when they neglect the highest source of wisdom--the Word of God. The reason why we have so few men of good mind, of stability and solid worth, is that God is not feared, God is not loved, the principles of religion are not carried out in the life as they should be." {CG 507.1}

[cardw]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: cardw

If we are to determine how we should live our lives, let us do it from reason and compassion. Using books as authoritarian sources of truth is sub human and is essentially the worship of language. It denies the great potential of the human heart to love and empathize.

If you are going to appeal to the story and myths of religion then take the message from the story and recognize that these are myths. Don't try to retain the bible as any kind of accurate representation of any real god. At best the Bible represents the history of thought experiments trying understand why we are here and our purpose.

"The Bible (God's Holy Word) Strengthens the Intellect.

If the Bible were studied as it should be, men would become strong in intellect. The subjects treated upon in the Word of God, the dignified simplicity of its utterance, the noble themes which it presents to the mind, develop faculties in man which cannot otherwise be developed. In the Bible a boundless field is opened for the imagination. The student will come from a contemplation of its grand themes, from association with its lofty imagery, more pure and elevated in thought and feeling than if he had spent the time reading any work of mere human origin, to say nothing of those of a trifling character. Youthful minds fail to reach their noblest development when they neglect the highest source of wisdom--the Word of God. The reason why we have so few men of good mind, of stability and solid worth, is that God is not feared, God is not loved, the principles of religion are not carried out in the life as they should be." {CG 507.1}

I don't know why you think quoting Ellen White is going to prove anything. The bible may cover some ethical themes, but I wouldn't call them lofty. Maybe you can give some examples of these lofty themes. Along with these so called lofty themes there is a lot of pettiness, cruelty, and just plain ignorance.

All I have to do is quote any number of responses here in Club Adventist to illustrate the failure of the Bible to develop noble characters and strong intellect. And I can easily illustrate the failure of the Bible to do this by quoting Evangelical Christians. The inane reasoning that comes from that camp is clear evidence that the Bible can't be relied on to produce intellect.

In addition this is typical Ellen White "awfulizing." We have so few good men... If the Bible was studied as it should be...shame shame shame and more shame. Should should and more shoulds. The world is really really bad to the bone and only a few Christians are good. Because even among Christians only a select few are dedicated enough, work hard enough, pray enough, witness enough, love god enough, give enough, enough enough enough!!

As usual she exaggerates the failures and motives of whole generalized groups of people.

[Overaged]

All I have to do is quote any number of responses here in Club Adventist to illustrate the failure of the Bible to develop noble characters and strong intellect. And I can easily illustrate the failure of the Bible to do this by quoting Evangelical Christians. The inane reasoning that comes from that camp is clear evidence that the Bible can't be relied on to produce intellect.

In addition this is typical Ellen White "awfulizing."

As usual she exaggerates the failures and motives of whole generalized groups of people.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

In addition this is typical Ellen White "awfulizing."

As usual she exaggerates the failures and motives of whole generalized groups of people.

You are "awfulizing" Christians...Why do you have a shame based message when you constantly preach against it?

[Overaged]

How convenient. If the interpretation doesn't present the Bible in the best light then the Devil gave the person the idea. This is just more superstitious nonsense. This is why Christianity is harmful to society. I stunts the intellectual growth of people.

Well; I used to think like you, but now I think like this:

Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path

Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

Psa 19:11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

I appreciate you sharing your opinions here; I will be praying that you have a similar experience to mine and come to the following conclusions:

Psa 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.