Islam, Christianity, and religion prevent reconciliation

[Overaged]

Reason is the basis for a number of meta narratives, each of which eventually becomes internally inconsistent with its own set of rules proving that they are not absolute at all.

The bar you set for absolute is far too low. It is simply a convenient label you use when you become unable to either understand the point being made or are unable to refute it.

This is all just mumbo-jumbo. It means nothing to most of the world which lives realistically with absolutes.

You have posted no evidence, no facts; just a meandering personal opinion.

[cardw]

To me; a belief "SYSTEM" (not necessarily individual beleifs) should present with some kind of hope. I just don't see anything hopeful to share with people in such non-descript, polemical belief systems such as yourself and cardw display. I really would like to understand you more, but it's hard because you argue about everything a Christian believes.

I agree that hope is very important. I think you assume that I don't have hope. And I understand why you might view how I approach life to lead to hopelessness.

I also understand addiction and its effect on a person's life and those around them.

The way my mind works and my ability to track inconsistencies doesn't allow me to believe the Christian meta narrative in a literal way. I can appreciate its dramatic illustration of a fight between light and dark, the sacrifice of a god, the redemption of humanity, etc. etc. Its got everything. It also has a lot of fear and shame.

My interest and my sanity depend on a rigorous commitment to what is true. If one really believes that the truth sets one free, this commitment is a serious one.

What I express is where my search has led me. I have found much more success by following that which I observe to be true in practice as well as in theory. I have found much more success with reason than some process that tries to decode what god wants from a book and call it faith.

What I have found that when I engage in the healing and recovery process of others I experience a lot of hope. And I have found that Christianity and other religious beliefs often get in the way of that process. And much of it is because of a lot of irrational thinking and simply accepting things because the Bible says so.

If I observed both within myself and within others a maturity of love, compassion, and insight from the practice of Christianity and its doctrines I would still be a Christian. It would be easy to defend and people would flock to it. I don't see that. I see quite the opposite.

I see a lot of shame and fear and a lot of arrogance. And typically when I share this I get back, well you're arrogant. Maybe I am, but I'm not claiming to be godly and holy either.

[Overaged]

I didn't say you have no hope; I said your message, whatever it actually is, is a hopeless one. It has absolutely nothing that I would want to grasp. Inventing pseudo words such as "meta narrative' doesn't come close to convincing me of anything; except that you are running out of ways to knock Christianity and religion. When you can actually come up with some certain proof that religion prevents 'reconciliation; I will listen; but right now it's not hard to close the ear to your preaching here because it is all just muddled up personal rants and opinions.

[Bravus]

OK, let's make it real simple and down to earth. No big words, no philosophy, one practical question:

In this discussion so far, which participants do you think have most fully and consistently exhibited the fruit of the spirit?

Leave aside who has The Truth, since that is what is under debate. Focus on “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.” (Galatians 5:22)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

OK, let's make it real simple and down to earth. No big words, no philosophy, one practical question:

In this discussion so far, which participants do you think have most fully and consistently exhibited the fruit of the spirit?

Leave aside who has The Truth, since that is what is under debate. Focus on “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.” (Galatians 5:22)

I'm not sure that's a good question to ask. The fruits of the Spirit can be counterfeited....coming from a source which is not of the Spirit. I think that's why it is best to judge only one's own self and not others.

Of course, I may be wrong.

[Bravus]

What's the difference between fake love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control and the real thing?

[cardw]

I didn't say you have no hope; I said your message, whatever it actually is, is a hopeless one. It has absolutely nothing that I would want to grasp.

[Twilight]

One of the posters on the blog pointed me to the issue of the 'euthyphro dilemma'. Here's a Wikipedia discussion of it: it occurs to me we could have a more clear and useful discussion of moral absolutes if everyone read this discussion first: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

What dilemna?

God is by nature morally good.

They are not split in two...

If we view God as "cause and effect", we will find the above a dilemna.

But if we accept God as an absolute, there is no dilemna.

An absolute by its very definition does not have a cause and effect.

Which is why God said:

"I AM".

:-)

[Twilight]

Reason by definition works with a set of assumptions. As long as we have assumptions we don't have absolutes. Reason is a set of tools that only work within certain assumptions.

Assumptions are things we hold to be true without evidence either because we have no means of proving them or we simply want to see what would result or we simply accept them to be true because we have never questioned them.

Assumptions have to be founded on absolutes to be used...

Show me an assumption that does not rest on at least one absolute.

At the core of purpose of this Universe is "THE ABSOLUTE".

Which is why we cannot escape it, no matter how much we play with words...

[Twilight]

My interest and my sanity depend on a rigorous commitment to what is true. If one really believes that the truth sets one free, this commitment is a serious one..

Truth by its very nature is another way of saying "an absolute".

So if you have a rigorous commitment to truth, then you have a rigorous commitment to an "absolute".

This is another example of a cat sitting up in a tree believing it is a dog. :-)

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: cardw

My interest and my sanity depend on a rigorous commitment to what is true. If one really believes that the truth sets one free, this commitment is a serious one..

Truth by its very nature is another way of saying "an absolute".

So if you have a rigorous commitment to truth, then you have a rigorous commitment to an "absolute".

The problem is not with absolute truth. The problem is with our perception of it.

I can claim that a spaghetti flying monster created this universe, and he chooses to be invisible, and that he wrote the Bible as a test of whether we will believe him or the Bible. The only reference you'd have is me telling you about my dream that this happened. I could believe that this was a vision that this being gave me.

You have no way of verifying such "fact". You can't really prove or disprove that spaghetti flying monster did not create the universe.

The point being "the truth" that you are proposing to be absolute is outside of our scope of reference. It's a belief in truth... and not an "absolute" as you claim it to be. It's a hit/miss situation here. If it was certain, then you'd not have 2/3 of the rest of the world believing in different reality. You can say that it's certain for you... but I doubt you can say that it's "THE ABSOLUTE"... because you've never seen "THE ABSOLUTE"... you just take other people's word for it.

[Overaged]

I didn't say that "meta narrative" was a made up word. But it is totally innacurate to use it in describing Christianity.

Also; I did not address your behaviors re "helping others" but I am questioning your "message" here on this forum. What part of it actually would "help" others?

As far as Islam and Christianity; when you come to my place; I will take you to meet some of my Muslim friends/neighbors.

[Overaged]

OK, let's make it real simple and down to earth. No big words, no philosophy, one practical question:

In this discussion so far, which participants do you think have most fully and consistently exhibited the fruit of the spirit?

Leave aside who has The Truth, since that is what is under debate. Focus on “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.” (Galatians 5:22)

Unfortunately my friend; you just complicated it quite a bit. That's a question that no one in their right mind would answer here. roodywoofs is right. It is not necessary to answer that question anyways. You have already shown "who has the truth" by admitting that you are still searching; meaning that you cannot possibly have it.

One fundamental mistake; I believe both you and cardw are making is going under the Hawking like theory that "everything" has to be explained, in order to have/know truth. The Christian religion does not operate under such assumptions; for Jesus has said that all we need is enough faith to make up the size of a mustard seed. Do you know how small that is? Also; the Christian religion does allow for all kinds of people to be "saved" under certain circumstances; if one understands it properly. We serve a God of possibilities, not impossibility and unknowns.

[Bravus]

'Trust those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it' - Andre Gide

[Twilight]

You have no way of verifying such "fact". You can't really prove or disprove that spaghetti flying monster did not create the universe.

But...

...if the "spaghetti flying monster" told us all the things that were going to happen in the future, which we then shared with others AND they came true, then we would have credibility...

So yes, we can verify Gods claims in the bible...

Prophecy establishes the logic, as does some of the underlying truths like the fact the universe is founded on "Absolutes" that have to be eternal in nature.

There are many evidences, logical, for the Christian God to be the God of the universe, in fact denial of Him is so absurd that people try to argue that:

"There is no such thing as an "absolute" and I am absolutely certain about that..."

[Twilight]

'Trust those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it' - Andre Gide

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: - Jesus Christ

[Overaged]

"Who said God isn't behind me?' - Hitler

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Reason by definition works with a set of assumptions. As long as we have assumptions we don't have absolutes. Reason is a set of tools that only work within certain assumptions.

Assumptions are things we hold to be true without evidence either because we have no means of proving them or we simply want to see what would result or we simply accept them to be true because we have never questioned them.

Assumptions have to be founded on absolutes to be used...

[cardw]

I didn't say that "meta narrative" was a made up word. But it is totally innacurate to use it in describing Christianity.

[cardw]

"Who said God isn't behind me?' - Hitler

I guess that is why God didn't stop him.

[Twilight]

The argument that there are "no absolutes" came from the very lips of Satan and is handed to us by a worldview that wants to define its own absolutes.

What it really means is that there ARE absolutes but "I" and not God, get to define them.

Those that say there are no absolutes really just want to choose their own absolutes.

So they become "the absolute", rather than God...

Which really is the thrust of the argument here, if we watch carefully.

[Overaged]

You said it was an invented word. That seems synonymous with "made up" to me. And since you apparently don't know what it means, how can you even know that it is totally inaccurate in describing Christianity?

[SivartM]

Well what you have essentially done is to use the word "meta narrative" to describe the version of Christianity you have invented to fit your objections to it. You actually do not even describe christian religion accurately so your objections such as "meta narrative" mantra are mute in my mind.

Er... please look up the word "metanarrative" and explain how Christianity is not a "grand story that is self legitimizing"...

[Overaged]

No thankyou. I will leave that up to others who are more "knowledgable" about this than I am

[Bravus]

(A general response to the thread rather than specifically to Overaged's post above)

One thing becomes clear: the only people who cannot learn anything are those who believe they already know everything.