Islam, Christianity, and religion prevent reconciliation

[Dr. Rich]

Bravus, Boy, you got that right! But the truth shall be made known to everyone one of these days in order for those living in the last generation can honestly make a choice.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

OK, let's make it real simple and down to earth. No big words, no philosophy, one practical question:

In this discussion so far, which participants do you think have most fully and consistently exhibited the fruit of the spirit?

Leave aside who has The Truth, since that is what is under debate. Focus on “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.” (Galatians 5:22)

Unfortunately my friend; you just complicated it quite a bit. That's a question that no one in their right mind would answer here. roodywoofs is right. It is not necessary to answer that question anyways. You have already shown "who has the truth" by admitting that you are still searching; meaning that you cannot possibly have it.

One fundamental mistake; I believe both you and cardw are making is going under the Hawking like theory that "everything" has to be explained, in order to have/know truth. The Christian religion does not operate under such assumptions; for Jesus has said that all we need is enough faith to make up the size of a mustard seed. Do you know how small that is? Also; the Christian religion does allow for all kinds of people to be "saved" under certain circumstances; if one understands it properly. We serve a God of possibilities, not impossibility and unknowns.

I kind of don't agree with that, sorry rudywoofs. The judging the Bible speaks of that we should not do is who has been saved and who has not. Who goes to heaven and who does not. What and why people do certain things. What Bravus is saying, and I don't mean to speak for him, is those fruits that he mention are things we can see in each individuals, of course what we can't know is if its genuine and I think that's what rudywoofs is saying.

[phkrause]

"Who said God isn't behind me?' - Hitler

And I would take his word? Why? LOL I understand what you mean by this statement.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

"Who said God isn't behind me?' - Hitler

I guess that is why God didn't stop him.

Actually he did, because if not he would've ruled the world I believe.

[Neil D]

God is THE ABSOLUTE...

I am sorry, but absolutes are tangable....Since death is the only absolute, it is tangable...it is real...it is quantifiable.....and it is provable....

Can you prove God?

I don't think so....

Therefore, God is NOT an absolute....God is a result of the only absolute known to man....death....

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

That is why Christianity is NOT a standards and rules religion...It IS a RELATIONSHIP religion..

The above sounds like an absolute to me, and if you cannot reason or know anything for sure, how did you just arrive at the above conclusion?

Are you using the argument of an "absolute" position here to argue that there are "no absolutes" Neil?

:-)

So, are you saying that relationships are absolutes? If so, marriage would be eternal, and not end in divorce.....A relationship with God is not an absolute...either party can dissolve the relationship...

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

IOWs, you can not trust your own reasoning....and you must rely on something or someone else....

This arguement that you surrender your reasoning is stupidity at it's best. Anyone, with evil intent, quoting the bible would be forcing you to surrender your values because your values are biblically centered...

That is why Christianity is NOT a standards and rules religion...It IS a RELATIONSHIP religion...it's not what you know, gentlemen, it is Who you know that saves you....and that is why it is based upon faith...not absolutes...

Iam sorry you think it is "stupidity at it's best..." Lets take my statement about "reasoning" just one more small step forward. Perhaps you will recognize what I am saying in a real-life situation.

[Neil D]

Assumptions have to be founded on absolutes to be used...

Show me an assumption that does not rest on at least one absolute.

At the core of purpose of this Universe is "THE ABSOLUTE".

Which is why we cannot escape it, no matter how much we play with words...

Alright,...you are going to have to give examples of your absolutes....I've already shown that God is NOT an absolute....

And I will agree that assumptions about life are founded upon other assumptions that are traced back to the one and only absolute...death...

[cardw]

The argument that there are "no absolutes" came from the very lips of Satan and is handed to us by a worldview that wants to define its own absolutes.

[cardw]

No thankyou. I will leave that up to others who are more "knowledgable" about this than I am

If you're not willing to do this how can you even honestly have an opinion without knowing what you are talking about?

It's like John Candy in Who's Harry Crumb when he says, "I'm so smart that I don't even have to think before I speak."

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You haven't really honestly addressed the conflict between these two religions. I have Muslim neighbors too, but that is irrelevant to the ideologies of both religions. If it was this simple I don't think the conflict in the Middle East would still be going on after THOUSANDS of years. Really now, the best answer you have to this conflict is to meet your Muslim friends. LOL

And to LOL at my comment about meeting my Islamic neighbors is pretty far out too. But it proves that 'reconciliation" is possible; or are you talking about the Catholic version of reconciliation, where it would actually just be submission? It is possible to be reconciled with one another, even while believing different things. Jesus says that what is impossible with men, IS POSSIBLE WITH GOD.

So you are saying that because you get along with your neighbors that this proves that we can have international reconciliation with Hamas, the Taliban, Palestine, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Iraq, and Libya?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

My interest and my sanity depend on a rigorous commitment to what is true. If one really believes that the truth sets one free, this commitment is a serious one..

Truth by its very nature is another way of saying "an absolute".

[Tom Wetmore]

...Here is an example of one of your assumptions about the universe. In your past dialog it is clear that you believe that gravity and other laws of physics are absolute.

Apparently this is not true either. Check this link

Laws of Physics may vary throughout the Universe

And another - Speed of Light May Not Be Constant

Or this related article - Physicists Slow Speed of Light

[Neil D]

Ok, so the evidence is showing that the laws of gravity and the laws to physics are not absolute....

....and Overaged and Twilight are argueing that God is an absolute...

I still maintain that God is NOT an absolute in that you can not quantify God, where as the laws of physics and gravity are quantifiable...

Guys, there is only ONE absolute...and it has been the root cause for many a religion and anti-religion .....

I also submit that if you argue that God is an absolute, you are attempting to put God in a box, attempting to quantify God, and for all the evidence that you submit, it only shows that you are addictied to the thought of God, and that God is a set of rules...and that you confuse your god with religion....

All of the above is quantifiable by your posts....

...and speaking as a Christian, I totally disagree with your premises...

[John317]

....and Overaged and Twilight are argueing that God is an absolute...

I still maintain that God is NOT an absolute in that you can not quantify God, where as the laws of physics and gravity are quantifiable...

Did you take Philosophy 101?

God is definitely an absolute:

From wikipedia:

Quote:

The Absolute is the concept of an unconditional reality which transcends limited, conditional, everyday existence. It is often used as an alternate term for a "God" or "the Divine", especially, but by no means exclusively, by those who feel that the term "God" lends itself too easily to anthropomorphic presumptions.

.....The Absolute, either under that name, or as the "Ground of Being", or some similar concept, also figures in several of the attempted proofs of the existence of God, particularly the ontological argument and the cosmological argument. In scholastic philosophy the Absolute was regarded as Pure Act, unadulterated with remaining potential.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_(philosophy)

Check out the entire article. Read other articles on "absolutes" in Dictionaries of Philosophy and Religion.

[Neil D]

As a matter of fact, I did take Philosophy 101....

Again, absolutes are quantifiable, are measurable and there is only one thing that fits in our definition...that is death...

anything else is dependent upon the understanding/interpretation of death....hence, God is a relatative term....It was made up because of 2 revelations...thru a man who calls himself a prophet of God, and thru the intellectual assumption that there must be something after death...and in either case, you must make a 'leap of faith' to define God....

So, John, no matter who you read, they all make the same assumptions...Ontological arguments, cosmological argument or whatever, they all make the same assumption...They assume that "God" is the place to start....but in reality, it is death that they are avoiding....and exercising faith to get around death...

[Bravus]

I think (and said, several pages ago) that the discussion of 'absolutes' is an unfruitful distraction from the 'main game' in this thread (as the thread has evolved, not so much in relation to the title and initial intention). So many people are using such massively different definitions of the term 'absolute' that the discussion is completely meaningless and pointless. We have everything from Neil's insistence that death is the only absolute to Overaged's position that absolutes don't require all the evidence, just our best current understanding. John317, the material you quoted above shows that God has been called The Absolute, but often as an attempt to *distinguish* him from the Christian God, so it's not a matter of then sliding across and stating confidently that the Christian God is an absolute. The original introduction of absolutes to the discussion was in relation to whether reason can function in the absence of absolutes, and we largely still have only position statements rather than arguments on that point.

So my suggestion would be to leave aside the issue of 'absolutes' entirely, since it's clear we can go on talking in circles and at cross-purposes for ever on that topic.

[Twilight]

Therefore, God is NOT an absolute....

Are you absolutely sure about that?

[Twilight]

A relationship with God is not an absolute...either party can dissolve the relationship...

Is it an absolute that either party can dissolve the relationship?

[Twilight]

I've already shown that God is NOT an absolute....

Really?

I must have missed your argument, I have seen you state an opinion, but I must have misunderstood your proof, or missed it, can you re-iterate your proof again please?

[Woody]

oh pleeeeeze

[Twilight]

YOU have decided that YOUR interpretation of the Bible is the absolute correct one.

YOU have decided that YOUR reasoning is irrefutable.

YOU have decided that YOUR thinking is without error.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: cardw

My interest and my sanity depend on a rigorous commitment to what is true. If one really believes that the truth sets one free, this commitment is a serious one..

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Truth by its very nature is another way of saying "an absolute".

Originally Posted By: Cardw

I have expressed a belief in a method of finding a localized truth. This is far from absolute.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: cardw

...Here is an example of one of your assumptions about the universe. In your past dialog it is clear that you believe that gravity and other laws of physics are absolute.

Apparently this is not true either. Check this link

Laws of Physics may vary throughout the Universe

And another - Speed of Light May Not Be Constant

Or this related article - Physicists Slow Speed of Light

Another "MAY" in the first quote...

And how would that disprove absolutes anyway?

It would just show us that we do not really understand physics properly yet...

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

A relationship with God is not an absolute...either party can dissolve the relationship...

Is it an absolute that either party can dissolve the relationship?