The body a temple for the Holy Spirit...

[Twilight]

Consider the Temple of God.

Paul says our Bodies are Temples.

Now if we look at the Sanctuary, we can see some interesting points.

(I am considering primarily the Holy Place and Most Holy Place).

In the Holy Place we have three things:

The Table of Shewbread.

The Altar of Incence.

The Candlesticks.

Now these represent the mind, specifically as the "Entrance".

What does the mind need?

1. Education from the Word (shewbread).

2. Prayer (Altar of Incence).

3. Illumination of the Holy Spirit (the candlesticks burning with oil).

So we have three essential elements that enable the mind to come to a knowledge of God.

But beyond the Holy Place, there is the Most Holy Place.

Beyond the experience of the Mind, there is the experience of the Heart.

What happens in the Most Holy Place, what happens in the Heart?

Once the Mind has entered into the three disciplines of the Holy Place (Prayer, study, dependence on the Holy Spirit for illumination).

Two things.

The Moral Law is placed there (Law written on our hearts).

The Shekinah Glory is placed there (indwelling of the Holy Spirit).

So the experience of the "Holy Place" leads us into the experience of the "Most Holy Place".

Now the Mind (the seat of the thoughts and gateway to the soul), needs education and exercise.

But the Heart (seat of the passions, desires and inclinations), also needs changing.

When we allow access into the mind, God reaches through and changes our Heart, changes our inclinations and desires.

The Mind is the doorway.

The Heart is the Throne Room of God in the individual believer

Your thoughts?

Mark

P.S.

I am endeavouring to help Pnat understand my position, which is the general purpose of this post, but please jump in with your thoughts and challenges.

This in no way changes the historical understanding of the sanctuary, just adds a different personal level.

[pnattmbtc]

Mark, this is from a conversation on the other thread:

Quote:

p:Let's get back to the Holy Spirit dwelling in the heart. Let's assume that the heart here is the literal heart, in the chest region. How does the Holy Spirit literally dwell in it?

M:I do not know.

The bible does not say.

But it says He does.

That is sufficient for me.

Christ dwells in my heart by faith.

He pours His love into my heart through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

How He does this is a spiritual mystery.

But He does do this.

From what you wrote, I understood you to mean the chest region when speaking of the heart. You affirmed this understanding here. When I asked you how the Holy Spirit dwells in the chest region heart, you said you don't know, but affirmed several times that he does.

I asked you:

Quote:

2.This means the literal chest region, and has nothing to do with the mind.

To which you responded, "No." You explained:

Quote:

But I am not arguing that "heart" does not sometimes refer to the whole of the inner workings of mans thoughts and feelings.

I appreciate your helping me to understand correctly your view. Are you disagreeing with my point 2 above because I said it had nothing to do with the mind? That is, if I had simply written:

Quote:

2.This means the literal chest region.

Would you have agreed with this? If not, then what is it you understand "heart" to be referring to?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

p:There's also a word for "kidneys," which, like "heart" depicts mental functions. Do you wish to argue that the kidneys have "mental" functions as well? This would be consistent with your logic so far.

Twilight:Yes to the first question, as this is the only biblical interpretation available.

That the kidneys have mental functions is not the only biblical interpretation available, as the lexicons make clear. In particular, here's the verse under consideration:

Quote:

I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. (Jer. 17:10)

This is the KJV. Following is the NIV:

Quote:

I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve. (Jer. 17:10)

Many translations are similar to the NIV, although the actual word used in Hebrew is "kidneys" ("reins" in archaic English).

So we see that even the translators see there is an alternative way to understanding this verse than the idea that the kidneys have mental functions.

[pnattmbtc]

I do not believer "heart" means "mind", based purely on a biblical exposition.

That they do indeed refer to two seperate components.

Does the "biblical exposition" involve anything other than that two different words are used? Let's consider English. If I say to someone, "I love you with all my heart," doesn't that involve my mind? Even though I used the word "heart" instead of "mind"? Do you have any reason to suppose that in either Hebrew or Greek the word "heart" does not refer to the function of the mind?

According to H.W.F. Gesenius; Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon of the Old Testament; Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI 49516; 1979,

Quote:

the word [for heart] (3824 LBB) means the seat of the senses, affections, and emotions of the mind

it also means

Quote:

the mode of thinking and acting

and

Quote:

the seat of will and purpose

as well as

Quote:

intellect and wisdom

Strong's defines the Greek word as

Quote:

the heart, thoughts, feelings

A couple of times the word is even translated "mind."

Thayer and Smith, a well-known Greek Lexicon, says "heart" is

Quote:

the center of the

1.the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours

2. of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence

3. of the will and character

Is it your opinion that the Lexicon's are wrong as well?

Quote:

This is unrelated to the issue of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

You wrote:

Quote:

Nowhere in the bible does it state that the Holy Spirit dwells in the mind. Not in one single place, it only ever states body and heart.

So surely what the "heart" comprises is not unrelated to the issue of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, by your own words.

[pnattmbtc]

Mark, I appreciate your opening post. I think it's well written, and has some very nice thoughts.

The following is a minor comment, but I've been thinking it for some time, so I thought I'd mention it.

You post like this:

Quote:

In the Holy Place we have three things:

The Table of Shewbread.

The Altar of Incence.

The Candlesticks.

Now these represent the mind, specifically as the "Entrance".

What does the mind need?

1. Education from the Word (shewbread).

2. Prayer (Altar of Incence).

3. Illumination of the Holy Spirit (the candlesticks burning with oil).

I think the following is easier to read, by quite a lot:

Quote:

In the Holy Place we have three things:

The Table of Shewbread.

The Altar of Incence.

The Candlesticks.

Now these represent the mind, specifically as the "Entrance".

What does the mind need?

1. Education from the Word (shewbread).

2. Prayer (Altar of Incence).

3. Illumination of the Holy Spirit (the candlesticks burning with oil).

The point is that you put a lot of empty lines in, where writing in a paragraph style would be much easier for the reader, in my opinion. I realize that people have their own style for posting things, and am not necessarily trying to get you to change how you post, but thought I would give some feedback, of which I doubt I'm the only one who perceives things in this way.

I've cross-posted some things from the other thread. These posts took some time to write, and to cross post, so I do hope you will take some time to address them. I agree with the spiritual points you make with your posts, but am not clear as to some of the ideas, which is what I'm asking about.

[Twilight]

Mark, this is from a conversation on the other thread:

Quote:

p:Let's get back to the Holy Spirit dwelling in the heart. Let's assume that the heart here is the literal heart, in the chest region. How does the Holy Spirit literally dwell in it?

M:I do not know.

The bible does not say.

But it says He does.

That is sufficient for me.

Christ dwells in my heart by faith.

He pours His love into my heart through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

How He does this is a spiritual mystery.

But He does do this.

From what you wrote, I understood you to mean the chest region when speaking of the heart. You affirmed this understanding here. When I asked you how the Holy Spirit dwells in the chest region heart, you said you don't know, but affirmed several times that he does.

I asked you:

Quote:

2.This means the literal chest region, and has nothing to do with the mind.

To which you responded, "No." You explained:

Quote:

But I am not arguing that "heart" does not sometimes refer to the whole of the inner workings of mans thoughts and feelings.

I appreciate your helping me to understand correctly your view. Are you disagreeing with my point 2 above because I said it had nothing to do with the mind? That is, if I had simply written:

Quote:

2.This means the literal chest region.

Would you have agreed with this? If not, then what is it you understand "heart" to be referring to?

If you read my opening post, the answer to your questions are in fact there.

The Holy Spirit communes with our minds to lead us into truth.

But what is the great "secret" of the Lord?

The indwelling of the personal presence of the Holy Spirit.

It is only through the truth being communicated through the mind and actively accepted by the will, that the Holy Spirit can enter a mans heart.

So the Holy Spirit illuminates and works on the mind, to gain permission to enter into the heart of Man and set up His throne there.

Now if you read the above, you will find all of your questions answered there.

I am of course happy to clarify the points you do not understand.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Quote:

p:There's also a word for "kidneys," which, like "heart" depicts mental functions. Do you wish to argue that the kidneys have "mental" functions as well? This would be consistent with your logic so far.

Twilight:Yes to the first question, as this is the only biblical interpretation available.

That the kidneys have mental functions is not the only biblical interpretation available, as the lexicons make clear. In particular, here's the verse under consideration:

Quote:

I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. (Jer. 17:10)

This is the KJV. Following is the NIV:

Quote:

I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve. (Jer. 17:10)

Many translations are similar to the NIV, although the actual word used in Hebrew is "kidneys" ("reins" in archaic English).

So we see that even the translators see there is an alternative way to understanding this verse than the idea that the kidneys have mental functions.

It is a long time since I looked at this issue of the "kidneys".

But it seems linked to emotional expression within the body, rather than mental faculties, but that is just off of the top of my head, so take it with a pinch of salt as it is a rather shaky memory...

[Twilight]

I do not believer "heart" means "mind", based purely on a biblical exposition.

That they do indeed refer to two seperate components.

Does the "biblical exposition" involve anything other than that two different words are used? Let's consider English. If I say to someone, "I love you with all my heart," doesn't that involve my mind? Even though I used the word "heart" instead of "mind"? Do you have any reason to suppose that in either Hebrew or Greek the word "heart" does not refer to the function of the mind?

According to H.W.F. Gesenius; Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon of the Old Testament; Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI 49516; 1979,

Quote:

the word [for heart] (3824 LBB) means the seat of the senses, affections, and emotions of the mind

it also means

Quote:

the mode of thinking and acting

and

Quote:

the seat of will and purpose

as well as

Quote:

intellect and wisdom

Strong's defines the Greek word as

Quote:

the heart, thoughts, feelings

A couple of times the word is even translated "mind."

Thayer and Smith, a well-known Greek Lexicon, says "heart" is

Quote:

the center of the

1.the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours

2. of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence

3. of the will and character

Is it your opinion that the Lexicon's are wrong as well?

Quote:

This is unrelated to the issue of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

You wrote:

Quote:

Nowhere in the bible does it state that the Holy Spirit dwells in the mind. Not in one single place, it only ever states body and heart.

So surely what the "heart" comprises is not unrelated to the issue of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, by your own words.

Don't you think it curious that the Holy Spirit is only ever pointed to as dwelling in the Heart?

That whenever it refers to Mind, it is referring to God interacting with it.

Or the use of it to consider and evaluate.

As to Strongs and the rest, did they arrive at their conclusions from purely biblical interpretation.

Or did they colour their interpretation with their own fundamental understanding?

I do not know the answer to this question.

So all I have done is examined the usages of the word "mind and heart" (every single one), looked back at the original Greek, taken the primary meaning offered and worked from there.

Kardia means heart in the Greek.

That I am sure of.

That some think that the word Kardia is used to define mind, I do not find any reason to accept.

Unless someone can correct me on this.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Mark, I appreciate your opening post. I think it's well written, and has some very nice thoughts.

The following is a minor comment, but I've been thinking it for some time, so I thought I'd mention it.

You post like this:

Quote:

In the Holy Place we have three things:

The Table of Shewbread.

The Altar of Incence.

The Candlesticks.

Now these represent the mind, specifically as the "Entrance".

What does the mind need?

1. Education from the Word (shewbread).

2. Prayer (Altar of Incence).

3. Illumination of the Holy Spirit (the candlesticks burning with oil).

I think the following is easier to read, by quite a lot:

Quote:

In the Holy Place we have three things:

The Table of Shewbread.

The Altar of Incence.

The Candlesticks.

Now these represent the mind, specifically as the "Entrance".

What does the mind need?

1. Education from the Word (shewbread).

2. Prayer (Altar of Incence).

3. Illumination of the Holy Spirit (the candlesticks burning with oil).

The point is that you put a lot of empty lines in, where writing in a paragraph style would be much easier for the reader, in my opinion. I realize that people have their own style for posting things, and am not necessarily trying to get you to change how you post, but thought I would give some feedback, of which I doubt I'm the only one who perceives things in this way.

I've cross-posted some things from the other thread. These posts took some time to write, and to cross post, so I do hope you will take some time to address them. I agree with the spiritual points you make with your posts, but am not clear as to some of the ideas, which is what I'm asking about.

It does look clearer, I will take that on board.

My main concern with these spiritual truths, is not that someone has to understand that heart means the physical heart if that is too much of a struggle for them.

But that they realise that the heart is the place where God takes up His throne.

If people do not accept that it is the heart, which I believe it is, then they should work out for themselves what they think the heart is, and then share it with me so I can consider it.

But one thing I am absolutely sure about, is it does not mean "mind".

But the truth here is wonderful, even if someone thinks the heart is the spiritual centre of the being for instance, then I do not have an issue.

But what is important to understand is that the heart is the seat of God's throne in the individual.

I have yet to see a viable alternative as to what the "heart" is, other than the physical heart.

I have plenty of people tell me I am "wrong", but no one has given me a viable alternative to this understanding.

Until that happens, I have to take it at its most basic level which does make perfect sense and balances against the scriptures...

In other words, it works...

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

My main concern with these spiritual truths, is not that someone has to understand that heart means the physical heart if that is too much of a struggle for them.

But that they realise that the heart is the place where God takes up His throne.

If people do not accept that it is the heart, which I believe it is, then they should work out for themselves what they think the heart is, and then share it with me so I can consider it.

[pnattmbtc]

If you read my opening post, the answer to your questions are in fact there.

The Holy Spirit communes with our minds to lead us into truth. But what is the great "secret" of the Lord?

The indwelling of the personal presence of the Holy Spirit.

[pnattmbtc]

It is a long time since I looked at this issue of the "kidneys".

But it seems linked to emotional expression within the body, rather than mental faculties, but that is just off of the top of my head, so take it with a pinch of salt as it is a rather shaky memory...

The brain is the center of our emotions. That doesn't mean other aspects of the body are involved (in particular, the face is involved, which is a very interesting point, which I might go into more detail regarding), but the brain interprets and controls these things. However these connections are not one way. You mentioned research about the heart having an impact, which sounds quite feasible to me. I know of such research in regards to the face.

[pnattmbtc]

Don't you think it curious that the Holy Spirit is only ever pointed to as dwelling in the Heart?

[teresaq]

Don't you think it curious that the Holy Spirit is only ever pointed to as dwelling in the Heart?

That whenever it refers to Mind, it is referring to God interacting with it.

Or the use of it to consider and evaluate.

Mark :-)

we can have mental assent only to bible beliefs which would be referring to the mind,

or we can also take it into our "heart"-feelings and desire

and our strength,

and our soul-our whole being..

[Twilight]

The heart is the seat of the emotions, desire, and will, where a person does his deepest thinking.

[Twilight]

I think the great "secret" of the Lord is His character. That's the critical truth that we need to understand.

[Twilight]

The brain is the center of our emotions. That doesn't mean other aspects of the body are involved (in particular, the face is involved, which is a very interesting point, which I might go into more detail regarding), but the brain interprets and controls these things. However these connections are not one way. You mentioned research about the heart having an impact, which sounds quite feasible to me. I know of such research in regards to the face.

Indeed the brain collates all of the information, but that does not mean that the heart is not the seat.

The seat can send a message that is comprehended in the brain.

Interpreted by the brain, but that does not mean the brain is the source of that emotion.

Could it be that the brain interprets the data into expresionable communicable experience?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Don't you think it curious that the Holy Spirit is only ever pointed to as dwelling in the Heart?

You said elsewhere that the Holy Spirit dwells in the body as well.

Just to clarify, the body is the Temple.

Yes the Holy Spirit dwells in the body.

But He specifically dwellw in the heart.

Consider this.

You live in a city.

But you also live in a house in that city.

One does not exclude the other.

[Twilight]

Lexicons are not limited to Scripture, which has a limited usage of words.

I am open to anyone explaining how heart could mean mind.

But my conclusions are based in the way Jesus used those words and then expanded from there into scripture.

I do not use a lexicon as the basis for the meaning, but the way Jesus used it.

If that is over-simplistic, then I am sure God will send someone to correct me on this at some point.

But as of yet, no one has really shown me why what I believe the scripture states is wrong.

The other factor is this.

When this is understood, scripture and the Christian experience opens up in a new way.

Hopefully we can discuss that more later.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Don't you think it curious that the Holy Spirit is only ever pointed to as dwelling in the Heart?

That whenever it refers to Mind, it is referring to God interacting with it.

Or the use of it to consider and evaluate.

Mark :-)

we can have mental assent only to bible beliefs which would be referring to the mind,

or we can also take it into our "heart"-feelings and desire

and our strength,

and our soul-our whole being..

Totally agree with this.

It is only when God takes the truth and writes it into our heart, our inclinations and desires that it becomes reality.

We have the same understanding here.

What I am taking as a further step however, is that the physical location of the mind is the home of the thoughts.

The heart is the home of the most basic level of desire and inclination etc.

And we haven't even got to the flesh yet... :-)

[pnattmbtc]

p:The heart is the seat of the emotions, desire, and will, where a person does his deepest thinking.

T:I would say the heart is these things, but that the "thinking" part you would have to define.

Quote:

p:The brain, the frontal part.

T:How do you get this from scripture?

The statement about the frontal part? That's general knowledge.

Why do you think the Holy Spirit communicates with our hearts in a different way?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Pnat

p:The brain, the frontal part.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

How do you get this from scripture?

Originally Posted By: Pnat

The statement about the frontal part? That's general knowledge.

[/quote']

Now here is where you have just gone wrong Pnat.

I asked you very explicitly where in the scripture you got this idea that the pre-frontal lobe is the "heart" in scripture.

And you have just replied that it is "general knowledge".

So let me challenge you, if you are saying my view is incorrect, yet yours is correct based not on scripture but on "general knowledge", then you are elevating "general knowledge" above scripture.

Is this what you intended to say?

Please clarify what you mean by this sentance. :-)

[Twilight]

Why do you think the Holy Spirit communicates with our hearts in a different way?

What is the method of communication that Holy Spirit uses?

He directly conveys His Love to our hearts.

This is not a "thought" level experience, although it is acknowledged there in the mind.

It is an emotional experience.

[teresaq]

our thoughts create our emotions.

but lets bring scripture into this discussion. if we stick only to the scriptures that say the HS dwells in our heart then we can only come to one conclusion...but if we take the other pertinent, explanatory, scriptures into account we have to come to another conclusion.

Jesus used several illustrations to convey His meaning...lets start with this one,

Quote:

Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever....

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

it is Christs words that we are to take, not just into our minds, but into our hearts also...meditating on His words, His life, changes our mind, our "heart" into His image...

[Twilight]

our thoughts create our emotions.

Upon what basis do you make this assertion Teresa?