The body a temple for the Holy Spirit...

[teresaq]

mark, lets bring scripture into this discussion. if we stick only to the scriptures that say the HS dwells in our heart then we can only come to one conclusion...but if we take the other pertinent, explanatory, scriptures into account we have to come to another conclusion.

Jesus used several illustrations to convey His meaning...lets start with this one,

Quote:

Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever....

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

it is Christs words that we are to take, not just into our minds, but into our hearts also...meditating on His words, His life, changes our mind, our "heart" into His image...

[Twilight]

but lets bring scripture into this discussion. if we stick only to the scriptures that say the HS dwells in our heart then we can only come to one conclusion...but if we take the other pertinent, explanatory, scriptures into account we have to come to another conclusion.

Jesus used several illustrations to convey His meaning...lets start with this one,

Quote:

Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever....

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

it is Christs words that we are to take, not just into our minds, but into our hearts also...meditating on His words, His life, changes our mind, our "heart" into His image...

I agree with the principle you have outlined.

As we accept the Word of God, the Holy Spirit writes it in our hearts and minds.

But this does not mean that the Holy Spirit is not dwelling within.

There is the Holy Spirits presence.

And then the action the Holy Spirit takes.

Then the results of that action.

-----------------

Consider it like this:

Place an artist in a room with some paint brushes and a canvas and ask him to paint.

When the artist paints on a canvas, is the artist the canvas?

No.

Is the artist the picture?

No.

But the artist and the picture are now both in the same room...

------------------

The Holy Spirit comes into our hearts, with our permission (our minds consent).

Then He writes Gods Laws on our heart (in our inclinations).

When we have Gods Laws fully written on our heart, we have "Christ formed within".

So yes you are right in your point above, I am not arguing that.

But that does not preclude the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. :-)

[teresaq]

im glad to see you agree...where i believe we disagree is in the how...http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/398607/2.html

So many adventists have swallowed this simple error, because they have not let the bible speak for itself.

God, comes in via the Holy Spirit and literally re-writes, or hardwires the physical heart (which science now knows has a neural network, very similar to the brain, but less concentrated).

He also does this to the neural pathways in the mind.

[pnattmbtc]

What I am taking as a further step however, is that the physical location of the mind is the home of the thoughts.

The heart is the home of the most basic level of desire and inclination etc.

"Desire" is a function of the brain. Do you think there is any doubt about this?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Now here is where you have just gone wrong Pnat.

I asked you very explicitly where in the scripture you got this idea that the pre-frontal lobe is the "heart" in scripture.

No you didn't. You quoted this:

Quote:

p:The brain, the frontal part.

And asked

Quote:

How do you get this from scripture?

Quote:

And you have just replied that it is "general knowledge".

Which it is.

Quote:

So let me challenge you, if you are saying my view is incorrect, yet yours is correct based not on scripture but on "general knowledge", then you are elevating "general knowledge" above scripture.

Is this what you intended to say?

You asked me about "the brain, the frontal part," and I responded that this is general knowledge. That is, it is the frontal part of the brain where our will resides, where we make decisions, where the "higher powers of the mind" resides.

Quote:

Please clarify what you mean by this sentance. :-)

I did above.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Lexicons are not limited to Scripture, which has a limited usage of words.

T:I am open to anyone explaining how heart could mean mind.

[pnattmbtc]

p:The brain is the center of our emotions. That doesn't mean other aspects of the body are involved (in particular, the face is involved, which is a very interesting point, which I might go into more detail regarding), but the brain interprets and controls these things. However these connections are not one way. You mentioned research about the heart having an impact, which sounds quite feasible to me. I know of such research in regards to the face.

Mark:Indeed the brain collates all of the information, but that does not mean that the heart is not the seat. The seat can send a message that is comprehended in the brain. Interpreted by the brain, but that does not mean the brain is the source of that emotion. Could it be that the brain interprets the data into expresionable communicable experience?

[Twilight]

im glad to see you agree...where i believe we disagree is in the how...http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/398607/2.html

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So many adventists have swallowed this simple error, because they have not let the bible speak for itself.

God, comes in via the Holy Spirit and literally re-writes, or hardwires the physical heart (which science now knows has a neural network, very similar to the brain, but less concentrated).

He also does this to the neural pathways in the mind.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I agree with the principle you have outlined.

But as long as the end result is the same, I am not about to argue.

If what I share is correct and you are open to the Spirits leading, then He will lead you into this as a truth, if He deems it necessary for you. :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

What I am taking as a further step however, is that the physical location of the mind is the home of the thoughts.

The heart is the home of the most basic level of desire and inclination etc.

"Desire" is a function of the brain. Do you think there is any doubt about this?

You did not answer my other question Pnat.

About how you come to the conclusion that the pre-frontal lobe is the "heart"?

I believe that desire is an expression of the heart, that can make itself known in the mind.

But I am open to being corrected biblically. :-)

[pnattmbtc]

p:I think the great "secret" of the Lord is His character. That's the critical truth that we need to understand.

T:I would say this is half of the truth.

But still truth.

A study I carried out reveals that the secret of the Lord, is in fact the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The RESULT of that experience is the writing of His Character on our hearts.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

p:The brain is the center of our emotions. That doesn't mean other aspects of the body are involved (in particular, the face is involved, which is a very interesting point, which I might go into more detail regarding), but the brain interprets and controls these things. However these connections are not one way. You mentioned research about the heart having an impact, which sounds quite feasible to me. I know of such research in regards to the face.

Mark:Indeed the brain collates all of the information, but that does not mean that the heart is not the seat. The seat can send a message that is comprehended in the brain. Interpreted by the brain, but that does not mean the brain is the source of that emotion. Could it be that the brain interprets the data into expresionable communicable experience?

Quote:

Emotion is the complex psychophysiological experience of an individual's state of mind as interacting with biochemical and environmental influences. In humans, emotion fundamentally involves "physiological arousal, expressive behaviors, and conscious experience".(Myers, David G. (2004) "Theories of Emotion." Psychology: Seventh Edition, New York, NY: Worth Publishers, p. 500.)

Emotion is "an individual's state of mind."

As I stated, the fact that the mind is the center of our emotions, does not mean that other body parts aren't involved. But the mind is where the important stuff happens that makes us different than other animals.

Do you see that at this point, you have made statements of opinion Pnat?

That you have not actually backed up your viewpoint with scripture?

------------------

I see a harmony in scripture between heart and mind.

Two systems working together.

As to which one has the precedence?

Well the heart seems to be what God really goes for.

Why?

Because He needs the inclinations and desires of the Heart.

If God has a mans mind, without his heart, then He does not have that man.

But if God has a mans heart, then the mind will follow.

So I would not necessarily argue importance of Mind over Heart...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

p:I think the great "secret" of the Lord is His character. That's the critical truth that we need to understand.

T:I would say this is half of the truth.

But still truth.

A study I carried out reveals that the secret of the Lord, is in fact the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The RESULT of that experience is the writing of His Character on our hearts.

I think the important thing is God's character. This is what the Great Controversy is about.

It is by misrepresenting God's character that Satan won the homage of men and angels. It was by this means that he induced Eve, and by her Adam, to rebel. They did not believe that God had their best interests at heart, and this led them to doubt Him.

The big problem of man is not knowing what God is like. Jesus referred to God as "Father" something like 170 times, and not once as "Judge." Yet when one thinks of God, especially Christians, what comes to mind? Someone like Jesus Christ? Or an all-powerful, holy, righteous, smiting, judge?

Not knowing what God is like leads us to many errors. For example, we can think we are doing God a favor by speaking to others of doctrines, when we are really doing Him a disservice by misrepresenting His character.

In terms of importance, IMO, understanding God's character is #1. Understanding the indwelling of the Holy Spirit would be way down the list, IMO. One doesn't need to understand this doctrine to participate in it, right? That is, Jesus said if we simply ask for the Holy Spirit, we would receive Him. That's true, isn't it? That is, if one does this, the Holy Spirit will take up residence in that person's heart (assuming the desire is sincere). What would be the importance of understanding that the "heart" is in the chest region? How could this compare in importance to knowing God's true character?

Quote:

p:This is fine, but why would you think it's useful or helpful to conceive of this as happening in a muscle as opposed to in our brain?

T:If you can only ever consider the heart to be a muscle, with no other function, then it will not make any sense to you.

But why do you insist that the heart is just a "muscle", upon what basis?

Definition of heart:

Quote:

The hollow muscular organ located behind the sternum and between the lungs; its rhythmic contractions move the blood through the body.

Is this what you're talking about? Or something else?

I have spoken of the heart in the "chest region," and in so doing the above is what I have in mind.

The revelation of Gods Character is essential.

But that revelation has to be revealed through us.

Which is why God has given us the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

To produce the fruit of Gods Character in us.

I do not think we should seperate it so determinedly.

As to heart, yes I believe the Holy Spirit takes His seat in the human heart, in some spiritual way that I do not understand.

Why?

Because that is what the scripture states.

Do I understand what exactly God does and how?

No.

But I accept it by faith.

Because God said it.

I do not even understand what "spirit" is, in its essence.

So there are many things I do not understand, but those things that are expressed as truth, I accept.

Do I understand how Jesus walked on water?

No.

Do I understand how Jesus called Lazarus back from the dead?

No.

Do I understand how Jesus healed lepers?

No.

But the bible tells me He did and I accept that by faith, not needing to know how "exactly that happened".

[pnattmbtc]

T:You did not answer my other question Pnat.

About how you come to the conclusion that the pre-frontal lobe is the "heart"?

I believe that desire is an expression of the heart, that can make itself known in the mind.

But I am open to being corrected biblically. :-)

How would this work? That is, suppose I say, "I love you with all my heart," and you understand this to mean the "hollow muscular organ located behind the sternum and between the lungs; its rhythmic contractions move the blood through the body" as opposed to being a function of the mind. How would I correct your thought biblically?

For example, Jesus said that we should eat his flesh and drink his blood. Suppose you thought this was literal. How would I biblically correct you? No matter what I said, you could just reply, "Jesus said that we should eat his flesh and drink his blood. I may be over-simplistic, but that's what the Bible says, and that's what I believe."

[Twilight]

Quote:

Now here is where you have just gone wrong Pnat.

I asked you very explicitly where in the scripture you got this idea that the pre-frontal lobe is the "heart" in scripture.

No you didn't. You quoted this:

Quote:

p:The brain, the frontal part.

And asked

Quote:

How do you get this from scripture?

Quote:

And you have just replied that it is "general knowledge".

Which it is.

Quote:

So let me challenge you, if you are saying my view is incorrect, yet yours is correct based not on scripture but on "general knowledge", then you are elevating "general knowledge" above scripture.

Is this what you intended to say?

You asked me about "the brain, the frontal part," and I responded that this is general knowledge. That is, it is the frontal part of the brain where our will resides, where we make decisions, where the "higher powers of the mind" resides.

Quote:

Please clarify what you mean by this sentance. :-)

I did above.

Are you saying that you believe the pre-frontal lobe is the "heart" in scripture?

[Twilight]

There is nothing that Jesus said which preclude the idea that the "heart" is a function of the mind (i.e. brain activity).

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

T:You did not answer my other question Pnat.

About how you come to the conclusion that the pre-frontal lobe is the "heart"?

I believe that desire is an expression of the heart, that can make itself known in the mind.

But I am open to being corrected biblically. :-)

How would this work? That is, suppose I say, "I love you with all my heart," and you understand this to mean the "hollow muscular organ located behind the sternum and between the lungs; its rhythmic contractions move the blood through the body" as opposed to being a function of the mind. How would I correct your thought biblically?

For example, Jesus said that we should eat his flesh and drink his blood. Suppose you thought this was literal. How would I biblically correct you? No matter what I said, you could just reply, "Jesus said that we should eat his flesh and drink his blood. I may be over-simplistic, but that's what the Bible says, and that's what I believe."

Your whole argument rests on this one assumption Pnat.

That the "heart" has no other function than to pump blood.

Would you agree with that?

[pnattmbtc]

Jesus said love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind. (Paraphrase).

Clearly defining the two terms of Heart and Mind as different.

If heart means mind or a function of the mind, then we would have:

Love the Lord your God with all your mind and all your mind.

They obviously do not mean the same thing.

[pnattmbtc]

When someone says, “I love you with all my heart,” what does that person mean?

Years ago, when heart transplantation began, many possible recipients expressed concern that the heart transplanted might have come from a murderer and that transplanting it would change the recipient’s way of thinking about people. The origin of these ideas goes back many centuries, to the time when people thought the fist-sized organ in the chest we call the heart was the seat of the emotions, and that control of emotions was its function. Now we know it is just a muscle pump. Rather than producing emotions, it can be seriously injured by bad emotions acting through the sympathetic system. Coronary blood flow can be reduced by anger and the effects of stress, with fatal results. So if the heart is not the seat of emotions, where is it?

The Limbic Lobe of the brain on the medial wall of the two cerebral hemispheres is made up of the cingulate and parahippocampal gyruses, joined together at the isthmus of the cingulate gyrus. This is called a lobe but really is part of other lobes as it lies on the medial (inner) aspects of the standard frontal, temporal and parietal lobes. Each is cross-connected by a part of the Corpus Callosum to its counterpart on the others side of the brain.

The Limbic System includes these cortical areas on each side together with the amygdala and hippocampus. It is the seat of emotions, what we used to think was the “heart.” It connects directly to the hypothalamus, through which outer expressions of emotion such as sweating, blood vessel constriction or relaxation, heart rate, gut motility, etc, are produced. Feeding into this system are smell, visual inputs, memory and thoughts. It sends out information to motor areas that influence behavior. So someone who we say has a “bad attitude” will have previously developed neuronal connections here that could lead to a socially unacceptable response in a particular situation. Such people can have their “buttons pressed” by feeding in appropriate stimuli. The same applies on the positive side, e.g., the smell of food stimulates hunger for food while hunger for sex can be aroused by stimuli that are appropriate to that individual. (http://jubilation.uwaterloo.ca/~ranney/mindheartsoul.html)

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding #399350, this whole post seems to be based on the idea that I and/or others are arguing that "mind" = "heart," but this isn't the case, and has been dealt with at length in other posts.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

The revelation of Gods Character is essential. But that revelation has to be revealed through us. Which is why God has given us the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. To produce the fruit of Gods Character in us.

I do not think we should seperate it so determinedly.

As to heart, yes I believe the Holy Spirit takes His seat in the human heart, in some spiritual way that I do not understand.

Why?

Because that is what the scripture states.

Do I understand what exactly God does and how?

No.

But I accept it by faith.

Because God said it.

Basically you're saying you believe what you believe because this is what you believe. What can be discussed here?

Quote:

I do not even understand what "spirit" is, in its essence.

So there are many things I do not understand, but those things that are expressed as truth, I accept.

Do I understand how Jesus walked on water?

No.

Do I understand how Jesus called Lazarus back from the dead?

No.

Do I understand how Jesus healed lepers?

No.

But the bible tells me He did and I accept that by faith, not needing to know how "exactly that happened".

God desires that we use common sense and reasoning in understanding His communications to us. The Bible says that we should eat Christ's body and drink His blood. Suppose someone believe this was literally true, and wrote exactly what you just wrote. What could you say to that?

[pnattmbtc]

p:How would this work? That is, suppose I say, "I love you with all my heart," and you understand this to mean the "hollow muscular organ located behind the sternum and between the lungs; its rhythmic contractions move the blood through the body" as opposed to being a function of the mind. How would I correct your thought biblically?

For example, Jesus said that we should eat his flesh and drink his blood. Suppose you thought this was literal. How would I biblically correct you? No matter what I said, you could just reply, "Jesus said that we should eat his flesh and drink his blood. I may be over-simplistic, but that's what the Bible says, and that's what I believe."

T:Your whole argument rests on this one assumption Pnat.

That the "heart" has no other function than to pump blood.

Would you agree with that?

You're asking if my argument rests on the assumption that the "hollow muscular organ located behind the sternum and between the lungs; its rhythmic contractions move the blood through the body" has no other function than to pump blood? I'd say that's certainly its primary purpose. I don't believe this muscle is the seat of our emotions, if that's what you're asking.

At any rate, no, the argument I raised here doesn't rely on that point in the least, as this isn't the point I was making. My point is that you're asking to correct your thought Biblically, so I asked how this would work, giving another example, where Jesus speaks of eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

[teresaq]

mark, im not telling you anything below that you dont already know and basically believe...the bible is a spiritual book...the parables that Jesus taught were to teach spiritual lessons. we know, for instance, that the heart isnt literally dirt, with stones, seeds and thorns. but a child of a certain age would take that literally. because it is spiritual and we are fleshly-minded it is still hard for us to get the spiritual lessons intended...

i dont believe the point of the bible is that the HS literally resides in our heart, rewires it or anything like that...i believe that it is stated as such to convey the idea of the closeness that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit wish to have with us...as if they were literally in our hearts....many times we hear someone say, or have said ourselves, "you are in my heart". most all understand what is meant by that.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

If that is over-simplistic, then I am sure God will send someone to correct me on this at some point.

p:I believe He's trying.

T:Indeed He coud be trying to teach you something right now, have you considered that Pnat?

I'm not the only one I'm referring to. Many have tried to reason this with you.

Regarding learning something, sure, why not? By the grace of God, I'm very open-minded, or else I wouldn't have many of the beliefs I have, which open me to abusive comments.

Quote:

T:But as of yet, no one has really shown me why what I believe the scripture states is wrong.

T:It takes two to tango.

p:That still does not really show your position from scripture Pnat.

But rather comes across as a dismissive comment.

If you are serious about changing my viewpoint, then argue from scripture.

Comments like this do not help the discussion.

I don't see why you took exception with the comment. You said no one has shown you why what you believe in Scripture is wrong, but I have presented many things to do so, as well as many others. In particular, Tom wrote a detailed and well-written post on the subject.

When I said it takes two to tango, what I meant is that someone can present something to you, but you have to be willing to take what is said. When you say that no one has shown you why what you believe the scripture states is wrong, you have to take into account that you may not be doing your part.

As to your comment that these comments do not help the discussion, then why bring this up in the first place? That is, you claimed that no one has shown you why what you believe in Scripture is wrong. This is dismissive of the efforts that I and others have made. So why make a comment like this? How does this add to the discussion?

If you choose to make comments like these, and people respond to them, why take exception with them? Why not just discuss the subject at hand?

[Twilight]

Pnat.

The issue here is that you are filtering everything through one of your own fundamental beliefs.

And that is, that the "heart" is just a pump.

Now unless you are willing to allow the possibility that this is wrong, then nothing I say will make any sense.

Where did you get this idea that the "heart" is just a pump?

Did you get it from the bible?

I suspect not.

I rather suspect that you have received this through a cultural bias of the western mind.

How has this bias been established?

The last 100+ years has seen mankind focusing on the brain.

The idea of "heart" having function, has been dismissed by science until very recent history.

Now out of that cultural mindset, has risen "psychology".

This idea that the "mind" is all there is to the human emotions and thoughts is based on this assumption.

Now let me really challenge you.

In the last 140+ years mankind has been promoting "evolution".

The belief in evolution is so widespread it is almost treated with incredulity if one suggests that they do not believe it (especially here in Europe).

Now is it true?

No.

But do many accept it as "common knowledge"?

Yes.

The idea that the heart is just a "pump" is based on the same type of reasoning.

The fact that you are doing the same is that you have quoted scientific research that is built on the scientific viewpoint that held sway right throughout the 20th Century.

And that is your "evidence".

And this is the problem here.

Rather than just taking Jesus teachings and then exploring them further in the bible, leaving aside the current "scientific" knowledge and seeking for truth, we come to the bible with a pre-supposition.

That the heart is just a pump.

But you have not derived that from the Bible as the Bible makes no such claim.

Rather, you have derived that from your cultural conditioning.

Your cultural education.

So, when I come to you and present something different, your basis of rejection is the result of your cultural bias, that the heart is just a pump...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Now are you willing to leave aside this idea that the "heart is just a pump".

Just to place it to one side and explore my argument, from scripture.

Allowing only scripture to have a bearing on your thoughts?

And to not rest in this idea you are presenting about the heart just being a muscle?

[Twilight]

I am not asking you to just accept what I am saying.

I am asking if you are willing to try this experiment:

Just allow us to discuss the concept of heart, from the Bible alone, filtering everything out until we have reached biblical conclusions.

Not allowing this idea that the "heart is just a pump" to be your foundational point of view.

But rather, just starting from scratch.

From the Bible.

This is not an easy thing I am asking, but if you are willing I am sure you will be greatly blessed.

Mark :-)