Why were the 10 C's revealed?

[Stan]

Was it to see what rules could be made to keep people out of a world that would be fully restored?

Was it to give us a better quality of life?

Was it to have topics for internet forums? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Why were they revealed to us?

[Bravus]

This is part of a whole long discussion, but I sometimes talk about them as the 'toddler version' of God's Law of Love. The Law of Love itself has two purposes: it improves our quality of life (at least, to as good as it can be in a sin-sick world) and it expresses the character of God.

Why the 'toddler version'? Well, it was given to the Children of Israel after their 400 years of captivity in Egypt, where they had been slaves, told exactly what to do all the time. They were, therefore, a 'toddler culture' in terms of being able to think and understand for themselves, and needed simple, explicit instructions.

Think about how we teach the Law of (Human) Love to our children. To a toddler, you can't say 'be safe, live long and prosper'. Well, you can, but they'll just blink cutely at you. You have to say 'Don't cross the road without holding my hand'. 'Don't touch the top of the stove when it's on'. 'Don't climb on the balcony railing'. Or, in KJV language, 'Thou shalt not...'

The final goal is what Jesus said: "Love God, love each other". That's what it's all about. But the newly freed slaves weren't ready to think through all the implications of that (and I'm afraid maybe we're still not today!), so they were given the 'toddler version'.

To me, this helps with all the questions about whether the 10 Commandments have been 'done away with'. No, of course not! But, for those who are grown up enough, they are replaced by the Two Commandments: which include the 10 plus a whole lot more!

[Bravus]

PS 'toddler version' is in no sense derogatory, by the way: they're the *perfect* version for the people's needs. And I seem to recall Paul using the same analogy, but with milk and meat!

[Robert]

Gal 3:19 Why the Law then?

"It was added because of transgressions....21 For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law."

"...through the law we become conscious of sin." Romans 3:20

Before Saul became Paul, he knew the law. So the law was added not expose ten brief failures, but to expose sin itself.

EGW on the law as more than 10 brief rules:

• It is so brief that we can easily commit every precept to memory, and yet so far-reaching as to express the whole will of God, and to take cognizance, not only of the outward actions, but of the thoughts and intents, the desires and emotions, of the heart. Human laws cannot do this. They can deal with the outward actions only.

[Gerr]

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Gal 3:19

Why the Law then?

"It was

added

because of transgressions....21 For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law."

"...through the law we become conscious of sin." Romans 3:20

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[:"blue"]And since, according to you the law does not apply to the believer, the believer should become unconscious about sin? [/]

Gerry

[Amelia]

But why did God wait so long to impart the 10c's? Why not give them directly to Adam and Eve? Could have saved alot of problems inbetween, dont you think?

[Bravus]

I like Ed's point elsewhere: before the Fall, Adam and Eve already knew the will of God and lived within it. They didn't immediately need the Commandments because they didn't immediately lose that knowledge. That ties in with my point above about why they were given when they were - just after the Captivity.

[Stan]

Is there/was there/will there be a keeping of the Sabbath in heaven?

[Bravus]

Sounds good to me, but I suspect that we won't be working 6 days and resting one. After all, 'in the sweat of your brow shall you eat bread' is part of the Curse. Maybe there was no need for an explicit Sabbath in Eden because every day was restful and every day was in the presence of God. Maybe it's the same in the New Eden: no need for a 1 day Sabbath for those reasons. Like everything, the Law isn't abolished in Christ, it's fulfilled, expanded, made how it was intended to be before sin.

[there buster]

I'm on board with Bravus about when and why. The lost knowledge needed to be restored, but it was definitely the comic book version--including the entire Sanctuary service.

Like Bravus, I mean no disrespect. But comic book is the closest contemporary analogy: Simplified, colorful, readily understood in principle.

[LifeHiscost]

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EGW on the law as more than 10 brief rules:

• It is so brief that we can easily commit every precept to memory, and yet >>so far-reaching as to express the whole will of God <<

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Robert, you seem to spend much time making much effort to destroy anyone's faith in trying to make a positive of maintaining the TenC.

Yet you produce evidence you continuously rely on, to prove your individual conclusions, that says in so many words,>> [:"blue"] 'so far-reaching as to express the whole will of God.' [/]<<

It is obvious to me we each must arrive at the truth through the eyes of our own experience as shaped by the leadership of Jesus [:"red"] ("I am the way...")[/], but do you see no inconsistencies when you seem determined to vilify the TenC as having no worthwhile place in the lives of present day disciples of Christ?

[:"red"] "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." [/] Matt 5:19 NKJV

Why would Jesus offer the hope of being greatest in the kingdom of heaven for those that 'do' the commandments if He knew all the time they were not 'do-able?

You will notice, for the benefit of the purist, this text came from the context of Jesus elaborating on the commandments of the OC, the commandments of His Father. And He went on to show that in doing them by the letter, as opposed to 'in the Spirit', the conduct fell far short of what the Deity wished to see accomplished by "doing" them. However He never gave any hint He desired to see His disciples cease from "doing" them.

Reading all of chapter 5 of Matthew seems to give clear evidence Jesus is referring to the literal effort to "do" all the commandments espouse, even though He recognizes imperfection in the efforts of man.

Man's efforts will ever fall short of the mark Jesus set, but repentance for this failure, while trusting in the mercy and grace of the Father and Son, allows man to be declared blameless.

[:"red"] "Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright..." [/] Job 1:8 NIV

Lift Jesus up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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Why were they revealed to us?

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[:"red"] "...anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it–he will be blessed in what he does." [/]

James 1:22-25

Lift Jesus up!!

[Robert]

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"Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright..." Job 1:8 NIV

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I have addressed this many times before….In short God knew Job would not let go of his "integrity". That's why I've consistently maintained that in God's opening statement on Job (see Job 1:8) that He is summing how Job viewed Himself and not how He [God] actually perceived him.

In the end Job repents of his self-righteous attitude and God fully restores him….

If you would like to look at the story of Job I’ll be more then happy to start another post called, “Job”! You tell me…

Rob

[Robert]

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"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever

does

and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:19 NKJV....Why would Jesus offer the hope of

being greatest in the kingdom of heaven

for those that

'do'

the commandments if He knew all the time they were not 'do-able?

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Let me remind you what Christ said:

"Whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave...." Matthew 20:26,27

Now let's look at Matthew 5:19 IN ITS CONTEXT!

According to Matt 4:25, "great multitudes followed Him from Galilee and Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from beyond the Jordan. 5:1 And when He saw the multitudes, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. 2 And opening His mouth He began to teach them, saying....

Whom is Jesus teaching here? Some say just the disciples, but if you go to where Christ finishes His discourse, you will find it was also the great multitudes. Let's go there:

Matt 7:28 The result was that when Jesus had finished these words, the multitudes were amazed at His teaching; 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law. [Please note the tension between Christ's words and the "teachers of the law."]

The multitudes were typically Jewish and as a Jew in the days of Christ you were taught that only those who obey the law went to heaven.

So the mentality of the "great multitudes" (including the disciples at that time) was that heaven is only attainable by the keeping of the law!

Was Jesus teaching the same as "the teachers of the law"? No and I'll prove it:

• For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. [Matt 5:20]

Did you catch that? Jesus is basically saying, "Remember what the teachers of the law taught you? Well I am telling you that your law keeping must surpass theirs!"

Now Christ begins to compare the letter of the law to what the spirit of the law requires:

Letter: “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ [verse 21]

Spirit: “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court." [verse 22]

Letter: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; [verse 27]

Spirit: but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. [verse 28]

Jesus continues to do this right up to verse 48 where He sums it all up:

• [:"red"]“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.[:"black"]

Did you get that – how perfect are you to be? What does the context say? “You are to be perfect”…how perfect? As you heavenly Father is perfect!!!

Why was Jesus teaching practically the same thing as that of the teachers of the law? The Jews were already bogged down under the law….It was a yoke of bondage to them.

Now Jesus comes along and makes matter even worse by adding the spiritual requirements of the law. What is Jesus doing?

Answer: The same thing He did at mount Sinai! The question is why did Christ give the law to a bunch of sinners when He knew that they couldn’t keep it? The problem is they didn’t know they couldn’t keep it!

If you come to Jesus and ask Him what good thing must you do to gain heaven, He will tell you to keep the commandments! Why? To break you of your pride – your ego….He does it to humble you so that you will concluded (as did Paul), [:"red"]"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."[:"black"] [Romans 3:28]

For further proof of my conclusions study the following:

Matthew 19:16-26

Luke 10:25-29

[Robert]

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If you come to Jesus and ask Him what good thing must you do to gain heaven, He will tell you to keep the commandments! Why?

To break you of your pride – your ego….He does it to humble you so that you will concluded (as did Paul), [:"red"]"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."[:"black"]

[Romans 3:28]

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When God humbles what begins to happen?

Well, look at Saul's statement before He became Paul:

"as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless." Phil 3:6

But after Saul is humbled we see a different side:

"But what things were gain to me [one of them was his law keeping], those I counted loss for Christ...and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith."

How did God humble Paul? By the law! Paul was a first class Pharisee, but when God revealed to him what "coveting" really meant according to the spirit of the law, Paul confessed his guilt and saw himself as a sinner.

Now God could work with Paul because He used the law as a tool to break Paul of his legalism....Once this happened - once Paul had the assurance of salvation by faith alone - only then could God work in Paul as a witness to the power of the gospel....Not that Paul was perfect "under grace", yet he wanted to experience God's love "and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death...Not as though [Paul] had already attained, either were already perfect: but [he] followed after His master Jesus Christ....

Remember how on the cross Jesus essentially said goodbye to life forever so that His enemies could take His place? Okay, now look at Paul's attitude after God humbled him:

Romans 9:1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit — 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel.

Do you realize what Paul was saying? First of all who persecuted Paul? His own people the Jews....Let's look at this real quick:

Acts 21:28 Men of Israel, help us! This is the man [Paul] who teaches all men everywhere against our people and our law and this place.....30 The whole city was aroused, and the people came running from all directions. Seizing Paul, they dragged him from the temple, and immediately the gates were shut. 31 While they were trying to kill him, news reached the commander of the Roman troops that the whole city of Jerusalem was in an uproar."

Do you realize what Paul is saying when he said, "I wish....I were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race? " He was saying I love them more than myself....He was at least willing to say goodbye to life forever so that his enemies might have heaven in his place.

So please do not tell me that there's no change in the lifestyle under grace....But to get to that point God will use the law to humble you!

Have you been humbled yet? For those "under law" I hope that God wears you out soon ....That's what it will take, but please don't try God's patience.... Remember Job?

[there buster]

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He is summing how Job viewed Himself and not how He [God] actually perceived him.

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I just love it when you "shed the surly bonds of [the text] and really take flight."

To paraphrase a French General concerning the charge of the light brigade: It is magnificent, but it is not Bible study!

[Robert]

Your title: Ed_Dickerson Adventist Author

So what!

[Robert]

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He is summing how Job viewed Himself and not how He [God] actually perceived him.

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I just love it when you "shed the surly bonds of [the text] and really take flight."

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I've studied this out for myself....Job's problem was like Saul before he became Paul: Self-righteousness!

Let me give you another Adventist’s Author - one who has truth! His name is Jack Sequeira. I suggest you buy the book, "Laodicea". I'll post some of chapter 7, titled "Laodicea must repent":

...Let’s look at another case study of repentance from self-righteousness. This one may create a bit of a problem in your mind, because I want to give a nontraditional interpretation to a familiar person in the Bible. Let’s look at the story of a man who appears in the oldest book of the Bible – the book of Job.

I’ve wrestled with the book of Job for a long time. I could never see why God allowed Satan to mistreat Job so badly and why Job had to go through all those terrible crises without any purpose other than to prove to Satan that God was right. To me, that didn’t seem to be enough; the whole story somehow didn’t seem to fit with what I knew of God’s character. Then one day I was reading The Desire of Ages, and I came across these words:

“The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy” (471).

But Ellen White didn’t say exactly what that merciful purpose was in Job’s case. The only way I could find out was to read and study and wrestle with the book of Job for myself.

When I began studying the book closely, I discovered that Job himself had a problem. At first it was hard to accept what I was learning, because it completely contradicted what I had always understood about Job. I had always had the picture that we get from the very first verse of the book. It say that Job, “was blameless and upright, and one who feared god and shunned evil" (Job 1:1, NKJV). This description of job is repeated in verse 8 when God is having a dialogue with Satan.

“Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” (NKJV)

And Satan replies, “Yes, but he does all this because You have built a hedge around him. Remove Your protection, and give him into my hands. You’ll see what he will do then. He will deny You and reject You. He will turn his back on You” (see verses 9-11).

So God said, “You can have him. Everything he possesses is in your power, but you can’t touch his body. You can’t kill him.” Immediately, Satan set out to destroy everything Job had – including his children (see verses 13-19). How would you react after losing your children and everything you owned? Job “tore his robe and shaved his head, and he fell to the ground and worshipped”. And he said, “naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return there. The Lord gave and the lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the lord.” (Verses 20,21, NKJV).

Job didn’t turn his back on God. He was righteous person. But this is the crucial question: Was his righteousness the righteousness of faith, or was it the righteousness of works? We need to look closely at his experience in order to determine the answer to this question, because I believe we will find in Job’s story similarities to your own situation as Laodicea.

In chapter 2, God and Satan have a second conversation regarding Job. Satan says to God, “All right, Job hasn’t rejected You yet. But let me touch him – not just his possessions or his children. Let me get his own body in my hands, he will deny You then!” And God replied, “Go ahead. He is in you hands, but you can’t kill him.”

Satan caused Job to break out in terrible boils from head to foot. At this point, Job’s wife had had enough. “Do you still hold to YOUR integrity?” she asked. “’Curse God and die!’” (Job 2:9, NKJV, emphasis supplied). But Job didn’t listen. “In all this Job did not sin with his lips” (verse 10, NKJV).

Three new characters enter the story, the so-called friends of Job – Eliphaz, Bidad, and Zophar. The arguments of these “comforters” are typical of the Eastern mentality regarding human suffering. All through the book, they are arguing that Job’s intense sufferings are the result of some secret sin in his life. “You wouldn’t be in the condition, Jo, if there wasn’t something wrong in your spiritual life. God wouldn’t be punishing you like this otherwise.”

Does God punish us like that? Does He cause us to suffer physically for our sins? No. We need to remember that the arguments of Job’s friends are based oh human reasoning, not biblical truth. That is why God rebukes them in the end. They were misrepresenting His character. But the important element in this story is Job’s reaction to all this. He doesn’t reject their reasoning regarding punishment for sin, but instead he defends his righteousness. That is why Job is so puzzled. Like his friends, he, too, believes that the wicked will suffer and the righteous prospers in this life. Yet he is suffering in spite of being righteous! That is what Job cannot understand.

“Teach me, and I will hold my tongue, cause me to understand where in I have erred.’”…He defends his righteousness before his friends. He is saying, “Where have I gone wrong” Show me what sin you are accusing me of. I am blameless, even though I am suffering.”

By the time we reach chapter 10, Job is defending his righteousness to God Himself. “I will say to God, ‘Do not condemn me; show me why You contend with me….You know that I am not wicked.’” Actually, Job is quite confident that his righteousness is perfect. “God,” Job says, “these friends of mine are accusing me of some secret sin. Show me where I am wrong. I would really like to know what my sin is.” Of course, Job was convinced of his righteousness; he didn’t think he was guilty of sin.

Was there some secrete sin in Job’s life that was the cause of his suffering? No. But did Job have a problem? Yes.

Job continues to insist on his own righteousness and to defend himself against the accusations of his friends. They keep saying, “Job, you must have some secret sin in your life; look how you’re suffering.”

And Job argues back, “No, I have not sinned. I have kept God’s commandments; I have held to my integrity.” Notice what he says in chapter 23. “My foot has held fast to His steps; I have kept His way and not turned aside. I have not departed from the commandment of His lips; I have treasured the words of His mouth more than my necessary food’” (verses 11,12 NKJV)

Does this sound like a man who has been justified by faith? Or does it sound like a man who is confident of his own righteousness, who is self-righteous?

By chapter 31, Job is strongly defending his own righteousness. He calls upon God to judge him. ”Let me be weighed in a just balance, that God may know my integrity.” (Verse 9, NKJV). He goes onto list the good works he has habitually done – fed the hungry, clothed the naked, cared for orphans and widows, and opened his home to the homeless. This chapter is Job's final argument against the accusations of his three friends. “So these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes” (Job 32:1, NKJV).

This was Job’s problem – he was righteous in his own eyes. He was sincere; he was honest. But he had a problem he didn’t recognize. The book of Job is a historical account of God’s first lesson on righteousness by faith. Let’s see how this is so.

[:"red"]After Job’s three friends quite arguing with him, a fourth man steps in – Elihu. He asks Job, ”Do you think this is right? Do you say, My righteousness is more than God’s?” (Job 35:2, NKJV) Elihu has put his finger on an important point. He isn’t trying to convince Job that his problem is sin, as did the other three friends. He is trying to convince Job that his problem is self-righteousness. And he continues this argument until chapter 38, when God steps in at last to settle the matter.[/]

If you read from chapter 38 to the end of the book, you’ll find that God rebukes Job’s three friends for their mistaken theology. They argued, “Job, you must be a sinner. The fact that you are suffering is proof of sin in your life because God punishes those who do bad things.”….

But God also rebukes Job. “Who is this who darkens counsel by words ("I am blameless") without knowledge? Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.” (Job 38:2,3, NKJV). God rebukes Job for his self-righteous attitude.

And notice that Job repents. ”Then Job answered the Lord and said: [:"red"]Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth.”[/] (Job 40:3,4, NKJV) God’s words silenced Job’s pretensions to righteousness. Job’s problem was self-righteousness. His attitude was that of the rich young ruler who came to Jesus saying, “All these things have I kept form my youth up” (Matt 19:20). Job was so focused all the good things he did and the lack of sinful things in his life the he couldn’t recognize the source of his righteousness was self rather than God. But when he came face to face with God, he admitted, “I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know….Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:3,6, NKJV)

What was it that Job had not understood? He had not understood that his self-righteousness was mere filthy rags in God' sight. But when he came face to face with his self-righteous condition, he abhorred himself and repented....

Repentance from self-righteousness is terribly painful because we have to swallow our pride - our spiritual pride. The things we have looked to as evidences of our goodness, we have to see as monuments to self......

God didn't enjoy putting Job through this crisis, but Job had a lesson to learn, and this drastic method was the only way to teach him. When the lesson was complete and Job was fully converted, God was able to bless him....He restored his health, his possessions and his children.

[Amelia]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Your title: Ed_Dickerson Adventist Author

So what!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Robert, this was childish and rude. Please try not to post your immediate reactions. Ed is a brother in Christ.

[benherndon]

The first insults were not from Robert though I do not agree with Robert on all he teaches--but the first insulting words were from another who said Robert was 'destroying' the Law and faith in it. They also said Robert was 'vilifying' the Law. This sort of comment by them is just that sort of comment I have had to deal with quite often---is totally out of place in a Christian forum here or anywhere else--between socalled Christians!

Robert, though mistaken in some things he says and teaches in my personal opinion, is NOT intending to destroy faith in God or the Law. Haven't you seen him say that obeying the Law is evidence of our faith!!!!---but we are saved by faith in God, he says! He has NEVER vilified the Law! But several of the 'traditional' semicultic SDAs posting here have literally 'vilified' him. IS THAT THE WAY CHRISTIANS DO TO EACH OTHER? You know better that it is NOT!

So 'get with' acting like a Christian FIRST, then, if you wish to disagree, do so with a Christian love-for-your-brother attitude, please!! I am embarrassed at Adventists who are testy and nastily critical to each other because of different beliefs about less than the most important matters.

If you're going to claim to be an Adventist then be ALWAYS considerate of others, even those that may be 'nasty' in response to you---otherwise your Adventism means little to me, at least.

"Is there no such thing as an eternal verity? Of course there is. But it resides in a Person, not in a proposition. Jesus is the truth. My beliefs may be true or they may be only my partial and biased interpretation of truth: but whichever, they are relative to the Absolute and I do well to treat them with more humility and less arrogance.

Otherwise I have joined the joyless circle of those who, since time began, thought their own little piece of truth was all the truth there was.

Heresy, they called it when it happened long ago.

Perhaps is it still the right word."--anon

This is to myself as much as it is to anybody else, perhaps more---but we all need to be reminded that we all "look through a glass darkly"!

Ben

[there buster]

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Your title: Ed_Dickerson Adventist Author

So what!

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Sorry that annoys you. Stan put it there, not me. Take it up with him.

As for Jack Sequeira, I enjoy most of his stuff.

I'm curious as to why you claim to have studied it yourself, and then quote him. Hard to tell which are his comments, and which are yours. Doesn't matter. I disagree with that interpretation. I would be glad to take it up with Sequeira personally. I'm sure we'd have an enjoyable discussion.

The notion that God is quoting Job in God's discussion with Satan strikes me as far-fetched indeed. It violates the setting of the dialogue, and weakens the entire book.

Satan intrudes into a meeting in heaven, claiming to rule the earth. And God counters, "Job thinks he's righteous."??? It makes no sense, and means there's no point to the rest of the narrative. Where's the conflict if both agree? 1) That's a concession on God's part that Satan is correct. But the context clearly indicates it is a challenge, one that Satan counters.

Here's the choice:

Satan: I rule the earth.

God: Even pathetic Job, who considers himself righteous.

Why would Satan go after Job in those circumstance?

OR

Satan: I rule the earth.

God: Not so long as Job serves me.

Satan: Oh yeah? Let me at him.

As far as Job lacking faith, he makes one of the most sublime (and earliest) expressions of faith in the Bible.

Job 19:25-26

I know that my Redeemer lives,

and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.

And after my skin has been destroyed,

yet in my flesh I will see God;

Since I'm under deadline right now, I don't have time to deal with your peroration in detail. But I think it is a fundamental misunderstanding of Job.

[Pockey]

I like this verse:

I run in the path of your commands, for you have set my heart free. Psalm 119:32

[Robert]

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Your title: Ed_Dickerson Adventist Author

So what!

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Robert, this was childish and rude. Please try not to post your immediate reactions. Ed is a brother in Christ.

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What I meant was that Ed being an Adventist's author carries no weight with me - I am not impressed! Was that better?

Rob

[Robert]

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Sorry that annoys you. Stan put it there, not me. Take it up with him.

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You made it clear several times.... Again, that as no weight with me!

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I'm curious as to why you claim to have studied it yourself, and then quote him. Hard to tell which are his comments, and which are yours.

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Long before you came here I had tackled this subject and in my own words.

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Doesn't matter. I disagree with that interpretation. I would be glad to take it up with Sequeira personally. I'm sure we'd have an enjoyable discussion.

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Perhaps? Sequeira is more spiritually mature than I am....

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The notion that God is quoting Job in God's discussion with Satan strikes me as far-fetched indeed. It violates the setting of the dialogue, and weakens the entire book.

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What it violates is your preconceived ideas....

Here's the conundrum:

1] God calls Job righteous.

2] Job calls himself righteous.

3] Job repents for calling himself righteous.

4] Job calls himself vile.

Would God call Job righteous if Job weren’t? No, because God doesn't lie! Therefore I believe God was stating Job's view of himself.

Further more, why would Job on the one hand say that he was blameless [see Job 31:6] and then sometime later state that he was "vile"? [KJV] Job 40:4

[Taylor]

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Robert, though mistaken in some things he says and teaches in my personal opinion, is NOT intending to destroy faith in God or the Law. Haven't you seen him say that obeying the Law is evidence of our faith!!!!---but we are saved by faith in God, he says! He has NEVER vilified the Law! But several of the 'traditional' semicultic SDAs posting here have literally 'vilified' him. IS THAT THE WAY CHRISTIANS DO TO EACH OTHER? You know better that it is NOT!

So 'get with' acting like a Christian FIRST, then, if you wish to disagree, do so with a Christian love-for-your-brother attitude, please!! I am embarrassed at Adventists who are testy and nastily critical to each other because of different beliefs about less than the most important matters.

If you're going to claim to be an Adventist then be ALWAYS considerate of others, even those that may be 'nasty' in response to you---otherwise your Adventism means little to me, at least.

"Is there no such thing as an eternal verity? Of course there is. But it resides in a Person, not in a proposition. Jesus is

the

truth. My beliefs may be true or they may be only my partial and biased interpretation of truth: but whichever, they are relative to the Absolute and I do well to treat them with more humility and less arrogance.

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Amen Dr. Ben We need to be Christians first, and correct in following the teachings of the Bible, second, in my opinion. If we can't have Christ like characters then no matter how "right" we are we won't be in heaven. That doesn't mean we have to be perfect, but we need to have Jesus's love inside of us enough that when others look at us they see Jesus's love shinning through . This is what the world needs more than anything. Jesus's love will draw people to himself and then they will be willing to hear his teachings, not the other way around. Thanks for this reminder!