Why were the 10 C's revealed?

[there buster]

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Again, that as no weight with me!

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You've made that clear...several times. So why don't you put that in your posts: "Ed's being an author doesn't impress me." Then you can say it every time without any extra effort.

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1] God calls Job righteous.

2] Job calls himself righteous.

3] Job repents for calling himself righteous.

4] Job calls himself vile.

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why would Job on the one hand say that he was blameless [see Job 31:6] and then sometime later state that he was "vile"? [KJV] Job 40:4

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Because Job is being accused of doing bad things. He specifically denies those charges. He did not do those things.

Ask me if I've killed anybody, and I can say I'm innocent. Or, if you must have exactly the same word, ask me if I'm responsible for a particular murder, and I can say concerning that, "I'm blameless."

Then he encounters God, and sees Him in His majesty. That causes Job to see himself as small and deeply soiled.

The first is a question of specific guilt, the second is a matter of comparison to the Living God.

Unlike your explanation, mine doesn't require God or Job to lie, doesn't put Job's words in God's mouth, doesn't violate the structure of the two encounters in heaven, and matches the context in which the statements were made.

[Stan]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Your title: Ed_Dickerson Adventist Author

So what!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Robert, I was the one who put that there on my own accord.

FWIW I think he is a great author.

[Taylor]

Out of curiosity what has he written?

[Amelia]

See this Januarys issue of []http://www.signstimes.com/sgnlogo2.gif[/]

http://www.signstimes.com/jan/index.php

[LifeHiscost]

Robert,

One of your premises is that every one who attempts to keep the Law (TenC) is attempting it that they might be saved. Irregardless of the fact that salvation is a gift already accomplished for all who submit to the faith of Jesus.

[:"red"] "...God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." [/]

1 Tim 2:3,4

[:"red"] "And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion;

he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." [/] Rom 11:26,27

You probably remember that the reason the majority of the Jewish faith at the time of Jesus sojourn on this earth while in the flesh (some call the first coming), one of the texts refer to as failing to reach the righteousness of God because they were trying to establish a righteousness of their own.

I believe there is a segment of the present Christian population who are making the same error as to their own faith, they considering that if they just have the correct turn on their faith they will be allowed salvation while all others who fall short of their own understanding will surely be lost. If I were in a position to make that judgement about anyone, I would classify you in that category.

In the center reference of the NASB for Rom 3:26 where it says >> <<, it is rendered instead as [:"red"] "who is of the faith of Jesus." [/]

[:"red"] "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of >>the one who has faith in Jesus.<<

" [/] Rom 3:26

You seem to equate all Christians who feel it is right to make effort to refrain from murder, coveting, adultery, etc. as among the former class. Which if it isn't judging about inner motives, it is certainly not thinking the best of a person who is making every effort not to strangle you.

Lift Jesus up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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I've consistently maintained that in God's opening statement on Job (see Job 1:8) that He

is summing how Job viewed Himself and not how He [God] actually perceived him.

Rob

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This of course is your opinion and not born out in direct assertion of Scriptural evidence.

Lift Jesus up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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He restored..... his children.

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Robert,

Long ago I determined the reality that Job placed his assurance of salvation on his making sure he did everything right. And it doesn't take pages of personal opinion and twisting of the Scriptures to come to that conclusion. It can be determined through just a few Scriptures that address Job personally.

[:"red"] "What I feared has come upon me; what I dreaded has happened to me" [/] Job 3:25 NIV

[:"red"] "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. " [/]

1 John 4:18 NASB

[:"red"] "The LORD said to Job:

"Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!"

Then Job answered the LORD : "I am unworthy-how can I reply to you?"

Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:

"Would you discredit my justice?

Would you condemn me to justify yourself?

....look at every proud man and humble him,

crush the wicked where they stand. Bury them all in the dust together; shroud their faces in the grave. Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you." [/] Job 40:1-4,6,8,12-14

I believe that advice applies as much to those who believe they have their faith all together enough to assure salvation, as it does to those like Job who consider something they can do will be sufficient.

[:"red"] "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit–fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

" [/] John 15:16

Jesus alone is sufficient. Not our intelligence, our faith,

our importance, not anything save Jesus is sufficient for salvation.

[:"red"] "Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part;

but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away." [/] 1 Cor 8-10

[:"red"] "...so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”" [/] 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 NIV

[:"red"] "I always pray for you, and I make my requests with a heart full of joy because you have been my partners in spreading the Good News about Christ from the time you first heard it until now. And I am sure that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on that day when Christ Jesus comes back again." [/] Phil 1:4-6 NLT

And it is well to remember, Job's children were not returned to him. They were replaced by others even though Job repented of his former behavior.

Lift Jesus up!!

[Robert]

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The first is a question of specific guilt, the second is a matter of comparison to the Living God.

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Of what sin were Job's three friends accusing?

[LifeHiscost]

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*Would God call Job righteous if Job weren’t? No, because God doesn't lie! Therefore I believe God was stating Job's view of himself.

**Further more, why would Job on the one hand say that he was

blameless

[see Job 31:6] and then sometime later state that he was "vile"? [KJV] Job 40:4

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Re: * Job practiced the shedding of blood in sacrifices which were an object lesson of his trust in a coming Messiah, Whose blood washed away His sins. Therefore God saw Job as blameless, the same as we Christians who trust in the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from sin are seen as blameless by the Father.

[:"red"] "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." [/] John 1:29 KJV

Re: ** Once Job was convicted of his true condition by the Holy Spirit he immediately humbled himself before God. It was upon his confession of his true condition and repentance of the same that God was able to fulfill His promises to him.

[:"red"] "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent." [/] Acts 17:30 NIV

If God chose a person as well disciplined as Job, by hard to endure circumstances to reveal the necessity of trusting only in the grace of God for his salvation, what do you think would be just for God to determine for we who fall so much further below the same victories in personal effort, to reveal our love for His other children.

[:"red"] "For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

" [/] 1 John 4:20 NIV

Lift Jesus up!!

[Robert]

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Job practiced the shedding of blood in sacrifices which were an object lesson of his trust in a coming Messiah, Whose blood washed away His sins. Therefore God saw Job as blameless,

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I'll need evidence to prove your assertion.

[Robert]

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Robert, One of your premises is that every one who attempts to keep the Law (TenC) is attempting it that they might be saved.

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No....However if you state you are actually keeping the whole of law (as manifested in Christ's life) then I'll say that you are deceived!

Rob

[there buster]

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Of what sin were Job's three friends accusing?

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Most of Job is in poetry, and poetry seldom yields concise "sound bites."

Job's friends don't know what he did to deserve his punishment, but they keep saying he must have done something to deserve it.

Eliphaz expresses this in 4:7

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7 “Consider now: Who, being innocent, has ever perished?

Where were the upright ever destroyed?

8 As I have observed, those who plow evil

and those who sow trouble reap it.

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In essence, "Innocent people don't get what you've gotten. You must have done something wrong."

Job continually denies any such thing. He has done nothing to deserve this misery. And we know, from the heavenly court scenes in Ch.1, that these trials are NOT in response to Job's trespasses, but because he has been faithful to God.

At the same time, he does NOT proclaim himself righteous in a general sense:

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But how can a mortal be righteous before God? ch. 9:1

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But it's one thing to declare oneself unrighteous in the abstract, and quite another to be confronted with the Living God. How can we see ourselves as anything but vile, or covered in filthy rags?

Job is a marvelous confirmation of the Great Controversy. But if you make it simply another morality play, in which a self-righteous Job gets his comeuppance from God, you lose valuable direct Scriptural evidence for the Great Controversy. Indeed, the purpose and function of the book of Job within the canon comes into question.

[there buster]

Stan, Amelia, it's always nice to have affirmation. But as you probably both know, the minute you go on record, critics arise, and people resent it. So I'm used to it.

When I spoke at a prophecy conference in Sweden, a woman stayed up the whole night in an attempt to prove me wrong on a particular point. It comes with the territory.

I don't write for praise, although it's nice. I write because I'm asked to, and because I have to.

For those who get SIGNS Australia, I have an article in their March issue.

And the cover article for April SIGNS in NA is one I really like. It should be online in a couple of weeks.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled topic.

[Gerr]

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Jesus continues to do this right up to verse 48 where He sums it all up:

• [:"red"]<font size=5>“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.[:"black"]<font size=2>

Did you get that – how perfect are you to be? What does the context say? “You are to be perfect”…how perfect?

As you heavenly Father is perfect!!!

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[:"blue"] Rob, I am amazed that you are taking Jesus's statement in its most extreme meaning which it could never be. Do you understand Jesus to mean that He wants us to be as omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent as God? For in order to match His perfection, we have to have these same attributes! A ridiculous notion, wouldn't you say? [/]

[:"blue"]Since you like to bring in EGW when it suits you, let me quote what she has to say about this verse.

[:"purple"]"The conditions of eternal life, under grace, are just what they were in Eden - perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law. The standard of character presented in the OT is the same that is presented in the NT. This standard is not one to which we cannot attain. In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provion that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace." MB 76

"He tells us to be perfect as He is, in the same manner. We are to be centers of light and blessing to our little circle, even as He is to the universe. We have nothing of ourselves, but the light of His love shines upon us, and we are to reflect its brightness. 'In His borrowed goodness good,' we may be perfect in our sphere, even as God is perfect in His."

"Jesus said, Be perfect as you Father is perfect. If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God's children, begotten by His Spirit, you live the the life of God. In Christ dwells "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col 2:9); and the life of Jesus is made manifest "in our mortal flesh" (2Cor 4:11). That life in you will produce the same character and will be in harmony with every precept of His law; for "the law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul." Ps. 19:7, margin. Through love "the righteousness of the law" will be "fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom 8:4 Ibid 77,78.[/] [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Of what sin were Job's three friends accusing?

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Job's friends don't know what he did to deserve his punishment, but they keep saying he must have done something to deserve it.

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After Job’s three friends quite arguing with him, a fourth man steps in – Elihu. He asks Job, ”Do you think this is right? Do you say, My righteousness is more than God’s?” (Job 35:2, NKJV) Elihu has put his finger on an important point. He isn’t trying to convince Job that his problem is sin, as did the other three friends. He is trying to convince Job that his problem is self-righteousness. And he continues this argument until chapter 38, when God steps in at last to settle the matter.

If you read from chapter 38 to the end of the book, you’ll find that God rebukes Job’s three friends for their mistaken theology. They argued, “Job, you must be a sinner. The fact that you are suffering is proof of sin in your life because God punishes those who do bad things.”….

Why did Christ abandon the unbelieving Jews in His time? [see Matt 23:37,38] Was it because they were sinners? No, in fact the Jews claimed to keep the law. Then why did Christ abandon them - what was their sin?

Remember Christ's statement, "I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” By that did Christ mean that some were righteous and others not? No...Christ simply meant that He didn't come to call the self-righteous, but sinners.

Why did the Jews reject Christ? They had the law - they were good people....Yes they believed in God, but they did not need Him as far as heaven was concerned. Their sin was of unbelief - they were totally legalistic.

Job also believed in God, but the question is did He need God as far as salvation was concerned? The answer is apparently "no"!

Job's attitude was like Paul's before His conversion: "As to the Law, a Pharisee...as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless."

What is the lesson that we should learn from Job's experience? Never to brag of our righteous! Never to think that we are actually measuring up to God's righteous revealed in the life of Christ.

[Robert]

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Rob, I am amazed that you are taking Jesus's statement in its most extreme meaning which it could never be.

Do you understand Jesus to mean that He wants us to be as omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent as God? For in order to match His perfection, we have to have these same attributes!

A ridiculous notion, wouldn't you say?

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Yes, a ridiculous notion on your account for the context says nothing of omniscience, etc. The context is about the spirit of the law! Read it again and again and again....

[Robert]

“So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained.” [EGW]

[there buster]

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After Job’s three friends quite arguing with him, a fourth man steps in – Elihu. He asks Job, ”Do you think this is right? Do you say, My righteousness is more than God’s?” (Job 35:2, NKJV)

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You're reading in your own meaning. Elihu is actually making just the same argument, "you must have done something, or God wouldn't punish you," in a different way. He's saying, "God has punished you, so you must have done something wrong. If you deny that, you're accusing God of injustice! You must think you're more righteous than God!"

This is evident in 38:3 "I will ascribe justice to my Maker.

"

Then he goes on to repeat the same basic charges:

"8 But if men are bound in chains,

held fast by cords of affliction,

9 he tells them what they have done—

that they have sinned arrogantly."

This translates roughly into:

"You did something, you know you did (arrogantly), now 'fess up."

I'm still trying to understand why you'd want to throw the Great Controversy theme in this book away on what is, to say the least, an eccentric interpretation.

It also makes God's actions in calling attention to Job inexplicable. Why would God point out Job's vulnerability to Satan?

[Robert]

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[Elihu is] saying, "God has punished you, so you must have done something wrong....You must think you're more righteous than God!"

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I am not sure I find that same conclusion. Were the Jews punished when God abandoned them because they persistently and ultimately rejected the atonement? Did God send in the Romans in 70 AD, or was that the result of their rejection?

God doesn't punish in the traditional sense. As EGW states, "God destroys no man...man destroys himself!"

Here's a formula (if you will) on how God reacts to persistent unbelief:

• 1] Because self-righteousness is chosen [unbelief]

  2] God withdraws

  3] Results in trouble

  4] Equals His wrath

Example:

"My anger [4] shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them [2], and I will hide My face from them [2], [:"red"]and they shall be devoured[:"black"] [3]. And many evils and troubles shall befall them [3], so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us [3] because our God is not among us[2]?' And I will surely hide My face [2] in that day because of all the evil which they have done, in that [they have turned to other gods (a form of unbelief)]" (Deuteronomy 31:17, 18).

[there buster]

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I am not sure I find that same conclusion. Were the Jews punished when God abandoned them because they persistently and ultimately rejected the atonement? Did God send in the Romans in 70 AD, or was that the result of their rejection?

God doesn't punish in the traditional sense. As EGW states, "God destroys no man...man destroys himself!"

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Yeah. But the question is what did Elihu believe? Not what you or Ellen White believed. Elihu was mistaken. That's the point.

[Robert]

No that's not the question! The question is did Elihu have a valid point when he said, ”Do you think this is right? Do you say, My righteousness is more than God’s?” (Job 35:2, NKJV)

Yes! Job's problem was self-righteousness! Those who persist that they are good people are denying their need of God....When God removes Himself, His protection goes with Him....

Think about it,

Rob

[Robert]

There are similarities between Job and Saul turned Paul….Here’s what EGW states of Paul:

Paul says that as “touching the righteousness which is in the law”—as far as outward acts were concerned --he was “blameless” (Philippians 3:6); [:"red"]but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner.[:"black"] Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt.….When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem [pride in his performance] was gone.

The same can be said of Job:

Job says that as “touching the righteousness which is in the law”—as far as outward acts were concerned --he was “blameless” (Job 31:6); [:"red"]but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner [Job 40:4].[:"black"] Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt.….When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem [pride in his performance] was gone.

[there buster]

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No that's not the question! The question is did Elihu have a valid point when he said, ”Do you think this is right? Do you say, My righteousness is more than God’s?” (Job 35:2, NKJV)

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We'll never know whether he had a valid point if we don't know what he meant when he said it. You've assumed he meant what you want him to mean. But that doesn't match the rest of his speech, as I've demonstrated.

IF you were inspired, you could cut-and-paste as you wish. But you're not. Either you respect what the Bible says, take it in context, or you do not respect the Bible.

I'm beginning to wonder if it's the latter. That's what I think about it.

[there buster]

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There are similarities between Job and Saul turned Paul….Here’s what EGW states of Paul:

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I'll use the same reasoning:

[:"blue"]

"There are similarities between Job and Joseph Bates. Here's what EGW states of Joseph Bates:

'Brother Bates is with us. He is coming to see you West. His duty is there for present. I never saw him as free as now. God is with him.--Letter 2, 1852, p. 2. (To "Brethren and Sisters in Jackson," June 2, 1852.)'"

After Job lost all his possessions and his children, he was finally free from worldly cares! "Never saw him as free!" What a marvelous testimony!

[/]

Your method is flexible, I'll say that for it.

[LifeHiscost]

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That life in you will produce the same character and will be in harmony with every precept of His law; for "the law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul." Ps. 19:7, margin. Through love "the righteousness of the law" will be "fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom 8:4 Ibid 77,78.

[/]

Gerry

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Thank you, Gerry, for that complete quote. It is beautiful.

[:"red"] "And I am sure that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on that day when Christ Jesus comes back again." [/] Phil 1:6 NLT

[:"red"] "God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us." [/] 1 Cor 2:10-12

Lift Jesus up!!