Can man stop sinning?

[John317]

Is the pastor distinguishing between those who are ready to be translated at the second coming and those who die before that time?

Originally Posted By: Rasor11

The distinction made is not clear. An example is given of a person who lies and and then dies shortly after without confessing his sin. I was told that this person would not make it to heaven.

Since God knows the heart of each one of us, He knows wheher that person would have confessed his sin if his life hadn't been cut short. And if that individual has truly accepted Christ and placed his faith in Christ's merits, leading a life that shows he loves Christ and love his fellow-man, God will not destoy him because he was killed before he had time to confess his sin. God doesn't give up on people that easily.

It's important also to consider whether the individual has sinned a willful, intentional sin of rebellion or whether the sin was unintentional or due to a temptation that caught the individual off guard. The Lord views those sins differently than sins that people plan and practice deliberalely and willfully.

We have to be careful that we don't give the impression that God is just waiting to destroy us. God is FOR us, not against us. God wants us saved far more than we want to be saved. God loves us much more than we love ourselves. (Many of us don't even rightly love ourselves, but God does truly love us with an undying love.)

A known sin is never something we want to take lightly or treat as if it is not wrong, but at the same time it's essential that we not portray God as unmerciful, harsh, and arbitrary.

Originally Posted By: Rsor11

The second example given was that at some point in the future we would have to stand on our own without a mediator and be without sin in order to be able to enter heaven.

See GC 425, which is quoted below.

Yes, he is right that God's people will have to stand without a mediator during the time shortly before Christ comes, after the close of human probation. Christ will no longer be the mediator for sinners. Christ will lay off his High Priestly robes and come as King of kings and Lord of lords, no longer our High Priest but King and Judge. He will no longer be in the business of forgiving and blotting out sins. The laundry will have closed. Now is the time for cleasing our robes in the blood of Christ. People who don't do it now while probation lingers will be like the virgins in the parable who were caught unprepared. It will be too late then to put away sin. That time is now. See GC 427, 428.

After the close of human probation, people won't be sending their sins ahead of them to judgment. The judgment of the living will have finished and all cases decided either for life or for death.

The living righteous will have been sealed so that they can't be moved, and the unrighteous won't change, either. Both have made up their minds completely about who they will forever serve and obey.

But it isn't true that we will have to stand on our own. Until the saved are given new, glorified, immortal bodies, we will always have the rightousness of Christ covering our sinful natures and our imperfections, and will have the Holy Spirit abiding in us.

Please consider the following paragraphs from GC 425:

Quote:

Says the prophet: "Who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness." Malachi 3:2, 3. Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14.

When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing. "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years." Malachi 3:4. Then the church which our Lord at His coming is to receive to Himself will be a "glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:27. Then she will look "forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners." Song of Solomon 6:10.

[John317]

I think the following paragraph will also help explain the answer to your question:

Quote:

As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. The Lord declared to Moses: "Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book." Exodus 32:33. And says the prophet Ezekiel: "When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, . . . all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned." Ezekiel 18:24.

All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. The Lord declares, by the prophet Isaiah: "I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25. Said Jesus: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels." "Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven." Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33. GC 483

[John317]

... When Christ comes in the clouds He brings His reward with Him (Isa.40:10, Rev.22:12), so in that sense those living when He comes WILL have to live a time without an intercessor. But it is not because you are sinless that you don't have an intercessor as much as He has already judged you faithful and you are safe and ready to go home. The reason you won't need an intercessor is because the decision has been made.....

We do know that we are safe in Him! He who defeated the devil with His word and who is everlasting and all-powerful can defeat our bondage to sin.

I like how you put it, Gail.

[John317]

I agree, pk. That's an important point. God considers the direction of people's lives, not the ocassional good deed, nor the occasional misdeed. Are people growing in Christ and getting closer to Him, or are they going in the opposite direction?

[Gerr]

Yes. It's heresy to claim that our own righteousness can *in any way* meet the requirements of a Holy God. Without Jesus' substitutionary sacrifice we've got *nothing*.

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

And we will not stand alone, Christ will be our mediator.

Hi pk,

Many pastors preach smooth things.

Is Christ our Mediator after probation closes?

Can He mediate for one who willingly wears a spotted garment? - i.e. one who has opportunity, but neglects to confess known sin?

After probation closes there will be no need of a mediator, whether you are wearing a spotted garment or Christ's garment. The decisions are made, the pronouncement found in Revelation that all is to remain as is has been made as well.

The time to come to the Lord is now!

Who knows? You may die today and your probation will be closed then.

[phkrause]

After probation closes there will be no need of a mediator, whether you are wearing a spotted garment or Christ's garment. The decisions are made, the pronouncement found in Revelation that all is to remain as is has been made as well.

The time to come to the Lord is now!

Who knows? You may die today and your probation will be closed then.

Good point Gail

[skyblue888]

Well said Gail.

sky

[Guest]

Amen Gail!

[Dr. Rich]

You wrote: ""The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly perverse and corrupt and severely, mortally sick! Who can know it [perceive, understand, be acquainted with his own heart and mind]?"Jeremiah 17:9 AMP"

Is there a good reason you left out verse 10? "I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind according to his ways, according to the results of his deeds."

Don't see anything here about faith--do you?

When someone repents-they are then sinless. Right? There is NO question that everyone has sinned, the question is; can man stop sinning? I say Yes--He better stop sinning or get used to the heat.

And John, may I object? When one stops sinning after repenting and followes after the truth, wouldn't that person then be righteous in the sight of God? Isn't that what King David did? Was not he considered righteous by God?

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Yes. It's heresy to claim that our own righteousness can *in any way* meet the requirements of a Holy God. Without Jesus' substitutionary sacrifice we've got *nothing*.

[LifeHiscost]

You wrote: ""The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly perverse and corrupt and severely, mortally sick! Who can know it [perceive, understand, be acquainted with his own heart and mind]?"Jeremiah 17:9 AMP"

Is there a good reason you left out verse 10? "I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind according to his ways, according to the results of his deeds."

I had no reason to include any following texts for they do not change the reality of verse 9. Here is the only safety we have and the only circumstance that will prove effectual in granting entrance into the kingdom.

"For,“Who can know the Lord’s thoughts?Who knows enough to teach him?” But we understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ."1 Corinthians 2:16 NLT

"To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."Colossians 1:27 NKJV

Just as Christ on the cross became sin for us, on this earth only His righteousness is sufficient.

"But we are all like an unclean thing,And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away." Isaiah 64:6 NKJV

"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—"1 Corinthians 1:30 NKJV

It is an act of creation of which only God is capable. How much choosing do you have in the birth process?

"So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You must be born again.’"John 3:7 NLT

Submission is the key for we cannot choose the right without His power. And of course, submission is a choice. How many years did you resist that choice, of which if Jesus had not interceded for you before you made it, you would have been lost without hope.

God blesses!

[John317]

...When someone repents-they are then sinless. Right? ...

Where does the Bible say that people are sinless when they repent?

David repented of his sin with Bathsheba after murdering her previous husband. Did that mean David was sinless?

When we truly repent, we have changed lives, and we won't continue to practice the same sins, but the Holy Spirit will point out to us other sins we need to overcome. That's what 1 John 1: 8 is saying.

Quote:

And John, may I object? When one stops sinning after repenting and followes after the truth, wouldn't that person then be righteous in the sight of God? Isn't that what King David did? Was not he considered righteous by God?

I could give pretty much the same answer as I gave to the previous question. There will always be more defects in our characters that the Holy Spirit is convicting us of as we grow spiritually.

The Bible considers "righteous" those who obey God's commandments and seek to do His will. "Righteous" in Scripture is the same thing as "just." One may be "just" without being sinless. We are righteous in God's eyes when we accept God's unmerited favor by faith in Christ and walk in God's commandments. Even these people who are righteous in God's sight have room for spiritual growth. The Bible calls Noah and Lot and Job righteous, for instance, but they were still sinners in need of a Savior. God doesn't require that we be sinless before He considers us righteous. We're accepted in the Beloved if we truly place our trust in the merits of Christ.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

...When someone repents-they are then sinless. Right? ...

Where does the Bible say that people are sinless when they repent?

David repented of his sin with Bathsheba after murdering her previous husband. Did that mean David was sinless?

When we truly repent, we have changed lives, and we won't continue to practice the same sins, but the Holy Spirit will point out to us other sins we need to overcome. That's what 1 John 1: 8 is saying.

Quote:

And John, may I object? When one stops sinning after repenting and followes after the truth, wouldn't that person then be righteous in the sight of God? Isn't that what King David did? Was not he considered righteous by God?

I could give pretty much the same answer as I gave to the previous question. There will always be more defects in our characters that the Holy Spirit is convicting us of as we grow spiritually.

The Bible considers "righteous" those who obey God's commandments and seek to do His will. "Righteous" in Scripture is the same thing as "just." One may be "just" without being sinless. We are righteous in God's eyes when we accept God's unmerited favor by faith in Christ and walk in God's commandments. Even these people who are righteous in God's sight have room for spiritual growth. The Bible calls Noah and Lot and Job righteous, for instance, but they were still sinners in need of a Savior. God doesn't require that we be sinless before He considers us righteous. We're accepted in the Beloved if we truly place our trust in the merits of Christ.

I think the question was doesn't God consider us as though we had never sinned? Isn't that the legal perspective of One who has taken all our sins upon Himself and forgiven us.Is it impossible to live in the reality of who God says we are once He has forgiven us?Otherwise how do we approach the throne of grace with boldness?

[skyblue888]

"It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress His character upon His church." D.A.671.

"In Christ dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. This is why, although He was tempted in all points like as we are, He stood before the world, from His first entrance into it, untainted by corruption, though surrounded by it. Are we not also to become partakers of that fullness, and is it not thus, and thus only, that we can overcome as He overcame?" MS 16,1890 or B.C. Vol.7a, p.351.

"Jesus revealed no qualities and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess if they will be in subjection to God as He was." D.A.664.

Thus we read, "When a soul receives Christ, he receives power to life the live of Christ." And "The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law." Christ's Object Lessons, pp.314,315.

Of course not one of us will ever equal the Pattern but these statements, which are mere paraphrases of the Scriptures, prove beyond any shadow of doubt that Jesus had no advantage over us. He lived a sinless life in sinful flesh.

"The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand. They were urged upon Him in as much greater degree as His character is superior to ours." D.A.116.

So if we look only at the statements above we have no choice but to believe that it is possible for us to overcome as Jesus overcame, even in thought!

But even if God declared one to be righteous, even if He declared that one had overcome as Jesus overcame, that would not be that man's hope to be saved in the kingdom for, as it is written, "Works without faith are dead, and faith without works is dead. Works will never save us. It is the merits of Christ that will avail in our behalf." F.W.48.

Such a man, being righteous, would give God the glory, would give the credit to whom credit is due by confessing that he had done nothing except by the grace of God and that if he ever walks through the gates of the City of God it will be solely on account of the all-sufficient merits of Jesus Christ.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

Thank you. Yes, that is the question. Once a sin has been forgiven-it's gone and so is the penalty. But the consequence of that sin still remains. If Jesus said "Go and sin no more"; did He mean it or was this just in joking?

[John317]

...If Jesus said "Go and sin no more"; did He mean it or was this just in joking?

No, he definitely was not joking. But his words don't mean, "Go and never commit a single mistake or sin again as long as you live."

His words in Greek mean, "Go and do not continue to live in sin, ie., do not keep on practicing sin."

It's best to read it along with 1 John 3: 1-10 because the Greek construction is the same. The idea is that born-again believers who have God's Spirit and nature within them don't go on practicing sin. It doesn't mean that believers never make a mistake or never sin or never need to bow at the foot of the cross and ask for forgiveness and cleansing. We always need to follow 1 John 1: 8-9 and 2: 1-3.

[Dr. Shane]

Jesus died for everyone's sins once and for all. He died for my sins before I even committed them. Forgiveness is mine for the taking. And the Holy Spirit prods me to accept the forgiveness. All I have to do is surrender. It is not as if we are the ones asking God to forgive our sins. It is God working on our hearts so that we will accept the forgiveness He is offering. Our work is only that of surrender. The burden of our salvation has been carried by God. We need simply to respond to His offer of grace. When we do ask for forgiveness, our plea is a response to God. If we continue responding to Him, our plea will be followed by a transformation of character. The transformation isn't a condition of forgiveness but rather it is the result continuing to surrender to the same Spirit that caused us to ask for forgiveness in the first place.

It is all grace. It is by grace we see our sinfulness. It is by grace that we recognize Christ as our solution. It is by grace that we are called to confess our sinfulness. It grace we are forgiven. It is by grace we are empowered to overcome. It is all grace. By grace we are saved through faith, not of our own works lest anyone should boast.

[LifeHiscost]

"Such a man, being righteous, would give God the glory, would give the credit to whom credit is due by confessing that he had done nothing except by the grace of God and that if he ever walks through the gates of the City of God it will be solely on account of the all-sufficient merits of Jesus Christ.

sky

Wonderful truth, worthy of repeating o'er and o'er. Oh, magnificent Savior. I would change only the above to "exercising righteousness granted".

[Rasor11]

Well I had a follow-up study last night and again I raised the questions "a person commits an unintentional sin, (such as gossiping) and prior to having the opportunity to confess and repent for this sin dies. Would this person be accepted into heaven?" Again I was told this person would not he accepted into heaven. I was told that the Bible is clear when it says that sinners will not be accepted into heaven. My response was, "should we not look into what the Bible was referring to when sin is mentioned in this context. Does the Bible not mean perpetual sins and not the unintentional sins that we all commit? It is true that we all should strive to and ask Jesus to help us live without sinning but God sees our hearts and knows if we would have confessed and repented if we had the opportunity." Again the answer was no.

The topic then moved to vegetarianism being made a test of fellowship. I said "there can be no doubt that vegetarianism is a healthy choice. But should it be a test of fellowship? Did Mrs. White not write in her Testimonies that vegetarianism should not be a test of fellowship?" I was told, "yes she wrote this but as new light was revealed to her she wrote of the merits of vegetarianism." This is a very week response. It is true that she wrote of the merits of vegetarianism. But I am not aware of any statement where Mrs. White backs away or retracts her earlier statement that vegetarianism should not be a test of fellowship.

So where does this leave me? My wife and children attend the Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement Church as do my in-laws. I have enjoyed worshiping there. If I were to leave the church, it is likely that I would be doing it alone. I have prayed much about this. The answer given me is that I am to follow the teachings of the Bible. I cannot attend a church that teaches the above beliefs. I must leave the church as staying would tell others that I agree with what is being taught.

I have told my wife that I will be attending the original Seventh Day Adventist Church Saturday morning for the first time. I will trust Jesus to lead me. I trust Jesus will also show my family the correct path.

[skyblue888]

Thank you. Yes, that is the question. Once a sin has been forgiven-it's gone and so is the penalty. But the consequence of that sin still remains. If Jesus said "Go and sin no more"; did He mean it or was this just in joking?

It may be forgiven but it is not blotted out of the records until the individual is judged after his/her death or in the judgment of the living which takes place at the end of the loud cry prior to the general close of probation. This is clearly taught in type as far as the sanctuary teaching is concerned. In the day of judgment of the dead or of the living, when a name comes up, if the record shows sins that have not been confessed and overcome by the grace of Christ, that name is removed from the book of life which means that this individual will be lost. Is this not correct?

sky

[Twilight]

The focus should be on Christ.

Not our sin.

What do I mean?

As a Christian, we have to set our eyes upon Jesus.

Focus on His Merits.

Accept all that He has given us.

Including the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Then follow the leading of the Spirit.

As we follow that leading we "abide" in Jesus.

And as we "abide" in Him, we overcome our sinful nature.

But if we take our eyes off of Jesus, like Peter did when he walked on water, we too will begin to sink.

But even then, do not be discouraged, because God has promised:

Psa 37:24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth [him with] his hand.

So fix your eyes on Jesus, seek the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and then follow the Lamb wheresoever He may go...

God bless you in your search Op.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

So where does this leave me? My wife and children attend the Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement Church as do my in-laws. I have enjoyed worshiping there. If I were to leave the church, it is likely that I would be doing it alone. I have prayed much about this. The answer given me is that I am to follow the teachings of the Bible. I cannot attend a church that teaches the above beliefs. I must leave the church as staying would tell others that I agree with what is being taught.

I have told my wife that I will be attending the original Seventh Day Adventist Church Saturday morning for the first time. I will trust Jesus to lead me. I trust Jesus will also show my family the correct path.

I will pray for you Brother. :-)

It is always wonderful to hear of a brother coming to the fold.

Be encouraged my friend, Jesus is leading you.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Rasor11

So where does this leave me? My wife and children attend the Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement Church as do my in-laws. I have enjoyed worshiping there. If I were to leave the church, it is likely that I would be doing it alone. I have prayed much about this. The answer given me is that I am to follow the teachings of the Bible. I cannot attend a church that teaches the above beliefs. I must leave the church as staying would tell others that I agree with what is being taught.

I have told my wife that I will be attending the original Seventh Day Adventist Church Saturday morning for the first time. I will trust Jesus to lead me. I trust Jesus will also show my family the correct path.

I will pray for you Brother. :-)

It is always wonderful to hear of a brother coming to the fold.

Be encouraged my friend, Jesus is leading you.

Will also be praying for you and your family Rasor11.

[Gail]

May God go with you, Rasor!

In the course of your study you may find it helpful to read biographies of Mrs. White, too. Our denomination has been very blessed but some people seem to make us appear extreme in their interpretation of her work. We CAN support her gift without throwing out Biblical principles (which is what it seems like sometimes, as in the above discussion).