Can man stop sinning?

[skyblue888]

Twilight, yes the focus is to be on the merits of Christ for it is the remedy provided for sin. Unless we make it our lifebusiness to look to Jesus and to accept His merits which it is our privilege to claim, we cannot be saved. See (T.M.93) So as we daily appropriate the merits of Jesus by claiming them, we obtain the blessings of pardon and light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. In other words, we are clothed with the armor of righteousness, the armor of light, the armor of God.

But the fact still remains that in the judgment, whether of the dead or of the living, as the records are examined, if there is found any known sin that has not been confessed or overcome, that individual's name will be taken off the book of life.

So while the sins that have been confessed and sent beforehand to judgment may be forgiven, they are not blotted out until the judgment, for these sins may fall back upon our heads if the judgment reveals unconfessed or unforesaken sins.

sky

[Gail]

So as we daily appropriate the merits of Jesus by claiming them, we obtain the blessings of pardon and light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. In other words, we are clothed with the armor of righteousness, the armor of light, the armor of God.

And... don't forget power for victory over sin that destroys us! It's a whole changed heart! :)

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

So as we daily appropriate the merits of Jesus by claiming them, we obtain the blessings of pardon and light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. In other words, we are clothed with the armor of righteousness, the armor of light, the armor of God.

And... don't forget power for victory over sin that destroys us! It's a whole changed heart!

Gail, what is pardon and light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit if it is not the power of God for victory over sin? Anyone who has these blessings in the Holy Spirit will be kept from sin for it is by the Holy Spirit that Christ dwells in the hearts of His followers and the Holy Spirit is given to keep us from sinning. Is this not the full armor of God, the full armour of light, the full armor of righteousness?

Right?

sky :)

[Gail]

It's a total package and it is totally suited to the deep yearning of the human heart!

[Dr. Rich]

Thanks John. This kinda reminds me of my talk with out Pastor this week. We were haveing a debate over him kicking me out of the church because I talk to people at church about what I have found in the bible. He told me that I am not allowed to talk to anyone on the church grounds about what I have found in the bible anymore or I will be kicked out of the church.

I continued to ask him what was wrong with what I had alleged to have been saying and he refused to tell me. He just doesn't want me to talk about the bible to anyone in the church again! Period! He does not want me to record our bible study any more either. In fact, I suppose I am not even allowed to take notes. He said the church board was serious about this even though they LOVE me and want me to still attend (what is it, they think I am rich or something?). He then told me that I am wrong but still refused to tell me why.

Like many here do the same thing--tell me I am wrong, then refuse to show me from the words of Jesus. (Not all though-some have been very helpful and I do appreciate that!)

Well now I hear they are saying this everyone that is in our Sabbath School class--not just to me. Let's see now, our class is over 17 years old, the same teacher, and the only thing we do different is that we all bring our bibles and study from them--not from a lesson made up from the church. NOOOOO--they just can't have us study the bible alone! But they can't get rid of us because NO ONE has found anything that we have said or taught that was not found in the bible!

And get this; they had an ordination last week for a great young pastor and made his swear an oath TO THE CHURCH "to be loyal to the teachings of Jesus Christ AS UNDERSTOOD BY THE CHURCH and will take counsel and leadership by those WHO HAVE AUTHORITY OVER YOU and your work". Poor man, can't think on his own anymore. Hmmm? It is no wonder SDA Pastors are leaving the church in droves. No wonder Peter Barkhulzen decided to call it quits.

So, the line has been drawn in the sand--the bible or them. What would you pick?

[mrsducky]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

...When someone repents-they are then sinless. Right? ...

Where does the Bible say that people are sinless when they repent?

David repented of his sin with Bathsheba after murdering her previous husband. Did that mean David was sinless?

When we truly repent, we have changed lives, and we won't continue to practice the same sins, but the Holy Spirit will point out to us other sins we need to overcome. That's what 1 John 1: 8 is saying.

Quote:

And John, may I object? When one stops sinning after repenting and followes after the truth, wouldn't that person then be righteous in the sight of God? Isn't that what King David did? Was not he considered righteous by God?

I could give pretty much the same answer as I gave to the previous question. There will always be more defects in our characters that the Holy Spirit is convicting us of as we grow spiritually.

The Bible considers "righteous" those who obey God's commandments and seek to do His will. "Righteous" in Scripture is the same thing as "just." One may be "just" without being sinless. We are righteous in God's eyes when we accept God's unmerited favor by faith in Christ and walk in God's commandments. Even these people who are righteous in God's sight have room for spiritual growth. The Bible calls Noah and Lot and Job righteous, for instance, but they were still sinners in need of a Savior. God doesn't require that we be sinless before He considers us righteous. We're accepted in the Beloved if we truly place our trust in the merits of Christ.

I want to be like Mary sitting at Jesus' feet. Isn't that really what it is all about? If I start thinking of myself as being without sin by whatever reason I conjure up, I am on dangerous ground because I am once again sinning by trying to live my life in my own strength rather than depending on Jesus.

[Gerr]

It may be forgiven but it is not blotted out of the records until the individual is judged after his/her death or in the judgment of the living which takes place at the end of the loud cry prior to the general close of probation. This is clearly taught in type as far as the sanctuary teaching is concerned. In the day of judgment of the dead or of the living, when a name comes up, if the record shows sins that have not been confessed and overcome by the grace of Christ, that name is removed from the book of life which means that this individual will be lost. Is this not correct?

sky

If the heart has been renewed by the Spirit of God, the life will bear witness to the fact. While we cannot do anything to change our hearts or to bring ourselves into harmony with God; while we must not trust at all to ourselves or our good works, our lives will reveal whether the grace of God is dwelling within us. A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the pursuits. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not

58

by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}

[Gerr]

May I be frank? I can tell you what the problem is, Dr. Rich. It is because you are calling the greatest NT missionary called by God a liar. You are on dangerous ground, and a danger to the gullible and less grounded church members.

[Guest]

May I be frank? I can tell you what the problem is, Dr. Rich. It is because you are calling the greatest NT missionary called by God a liar. You are on dangerous ground, and a danger to the gullible and less grounded church members.

Amen Gerry!!

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

May I be frank? I can tell you what the problem is, Dr. Rich. It is because you are calling the greatest NT missionary called by God a liar. You are on dangerous ground, and a danger to the gullible and less grounded church members.

Amen Gerry!!

I second that AMEN

[Guest]

Thanks John. This kinda reminds me of my talk with out Pastor this week. We were haveing a debate over him kicking me out of the church because I talk to people at church about what I have found in the bible. He told me that I am not allowed to talk to anyone on the church grounds about what I have found in the bible anymore or I will be kicked out of the church.

I continued to ask him what was wrong with what I had alleged to have been saying and he refused to tell me. He just doesn't want me to talk about the bible to anyone in the church again! Period! He does not want me to record our bible study any more either. In fact, I suppose I am not even allowed to take notes. He said the church board was serious about this even though they LOVE me and want me to still attend (what is it, they think I am rich or something?). He then told me that I am wrong but still refused to tell me why.

Sounds like somebody is coming to their senses. The reason he didn't tell you why is probably because he didn't know where to start.

Should he start with the fact that you no longer believe the Bible is the inspired word of God?

Or that you call the prophet, "inspired by Satan"? Or that you say Paul is a liar? (not biblical)

Or that you teach that the Holy Spirit is a woman? (not biblical)

Or that you no longer believe you need faith, (not biblical) even though Jesus and the rest of the Bible says very plainly that you do? Including the OT.

Or that you claim to know when Jesus is coming? (not biblical)

Or that you teach that grace is not needed? (not biblical)

I can see the preacher's dilemma. He did the right thing in just giving you the bottom line, and leaving it at that. Because I'm sure his time for you is not unlimited. (which you likely don't understand either)

[doug yowell]

[John317]

Well I had a follow-up study last night and again I raised the questions "a person commits an unintentional sin, (such as gossiping) and prior to having the opportunity to confess and repent for this sin dies. Would this person be accepted into heaven?" Again I was told this person would not he accepted into heaven.

....The topic then moved to vegetarianism being made a test of fellowship. I said "there can be no doubt that vegetarianism is a healthy choice. But should it be a test of fellowship? Did Mrs. White not write in her Testimonies that vegetarianism should not be a test of fellowship?" I was told, "yes she wrote this but as new light was revealed to her she wrote of the merits of vegetarianism." This is a very week response. It is true that she wrote of the merits of vegetarianism. But I am not aware of any statement where Mrs. White backs away or retracts her earlier statement that vegetarianism should not be a test of fellowship.

You are right on these questions, and the Reform Movement is clearly wrong. And I don't say this in any way as someone who opposes the Reform Movement but simply as a theological fact.

She did write of the merits of vegetarianism, but she never said anything that can be construed to mean she favored making it a test. In fact, she wrote things that convince me she never would have supported its being a test of fellowship.

Originally Posted By: Rasor11

So where does this leave me? My wife and children attend the Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement Church as do my in-laws. I have enjoyed worshiping there. If I were to leave the church, it is likely that I would be doing it alone. I have prayed much about this. The answer given me is that I am to follow the teachings of the Bible. I cannot attend a church that teaches the above beliefs. I must leave the church as staying would tell others that I agree with what is being taught.

I have told my wife that I will be attending the original Seventh Day Adventist Church Saturday morning for the first time. I will trust Jesus to lead me. I trust Jesus will also show my family the correct path.

You have to do what you believe is right. No one can tell you what you should do about this. But if I were you (which I know I'm not), I would be loving and patient with them and continue to show them that I accept them as Christians. You are definitely doing right to pray about it and trust Jesus to lead you and them to the correct path.

[John317]

This kinda reminds me of my talk with out Pastor this week. We were haveing a debate over him kicking me out of the church because I talk to people at church about what I have found in the bible. He told me that I am not allowed to talk to anyone on the church grounds about what I have found in the bible anymore or I will be kicked out of the church.

Do you have a new pastor?

Who were having the debate with? You mean with Wayfinder and MM? Or with the pastor?

Were the elders of the church present when the pastor told you this?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

I continued to ask him what was wrong with what I had alleged to have been saying and he refused to tell me.

If he told you, would you listen to him and accept what he says? Or would you want to argue the point?

I also think it's likely that he wouldn't know which doctrine to bring up first. There are quite a few things that he could have in mind.

There are so many areas of teaching in which you are really out of harmony with the church's view of Bible doctrine.

You do realize this, of course, right?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

He just doesn't want me to talk about the bible to anyone in the church again! Period!

Are you really surprised?

Try to see it from the SDAs viewpoint:

Let's say the Lord brings someone into the church after I've studied with them and they agree with the studies. They accept Jesus as their Savior and decide to be baptized and join the church. Then they attend church and see you as a member of the church say Paul is of the devil and so is Ellen White.

How is that going to go over, you think?

You are free to say anything you want but do you expect the church to let you use the church as a pulpit for your teachings?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

He does not want me to record our bible study any more either. In fact, I suppose I am not even allowed to take notes.

Sounds like they are saying you can't broadcast your Bible studies on the radio from the church. I'm not all that surprised. Are you?

I'm surprised they've allowed it these many years. After all, you are using the church's name as the origin of your radio program, and it would be easy for your listeners to get the idea that the church supports your views.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

He said the church board was serious about this even though they LOVE me and want me to still attend (what is it, they think I am rich or something?). He then told me that I am wrong but still refused to tell me why.

I'm sure they are serious. Why shouldn't they be?

Of course they love you. They really do. We love you here, too, Dr. Rich, but loving someone doesn't mean you don't tell them when they are wrong. In fact, love means we tell people they are wrong when we believe they're wrong. If we don't love people, that's when we don't bother to tell them, and we don't even risk making them angry with us. Love means you tell people the truth.

Again, the reason he didn't tell you why is that he knew you would just argue about it instead of listening and giving it serious consideration.

He knows that if he were to tell you exactly why he doesn't want you to teach your beliefs in the church, you would want to debate it, and he isn't there to debate with you about it. He's there to tell you what the church's decision is. I think that's what's going on there.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

....Well now I hear they are saying this everyone that is in our Sabbath School class--not just to me.

Are your views and teachings the same as the others? Probably pretty similar, right?

Don't you and everyone else in the class teach basically the same thing-- among others, that Paul's writings are false and that Ellen White is not a true prophet?

How is that for independent thinking?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Let's see now, our class is over 17 years old, the same teacher, and the only thing we do different is that we all bring our bibles and study from them--not from a lesson made up from the church. NOOOOO--they just can't have us study the bible alone! But they can't get rid of us because NO ONE has found anything that we have said or taught that was not found in the bible!

I don't think this has anything to do with it, Dr. Rich, because I've been in a lot of Sabbath schools that don't study the lesson quarterlies. In fact, some of the very popular Sabbath Schools at Loma Linda University Church don't study the Sabbath School quarterlies.

But when you say what you do here, Dr. Rich, it seems to me that you are denigrating the whole concept and practice of studying the Sabbath School lessons designed by the church, as if there is something wrong with it. You wouldn't have a rebellious attitude toward the SDA church, would you?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

And get this; they had an ordination last week for a great young pastor and made his swear an oath TO THE CHURCH "to be loyal to the teachings of Jesus Christ AS UNDERSTOOD BY THE CHURCH and will take counsel and leadership by those WHO HAVE AUTHORITY OVER YOU and your work".

This doesn't seem right to you? Should we expect that the church is going to pay our tithe money for a preacher who preaches against the teachings of the church?

No one is saying that pastor can't teach against the church or its doctrines, but he can't use money from the church to do it. Would you you pay someone to teach against what you believe and want taught? I doubt it.

If someone becomes convinced that they can't teach SDAs beliefs and doctrines, then they are morally and ethically obligated to step down and give place to someone who can and will.

Everyone is answerable to someone else, Dr. Rich. I don't see anything wrong with someone promising to take counsel and leadership by those who ahve authority over you and your work. In your work, do you not take counsel or leadership from anyone?

The Bible itself tells us to do the same thing.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Poor man, can't think on his own anymore. Hmmm?

Why do you say this-- just because he promises to accept counsel and leadership from those who have authority over him and his work?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

It is no wonder SDA Pastors are leaving the church in droves. No wonder Peter Barkhulzen decided to call it quits.

There's no church or religious organization where people won't be asked to do the same thing.

I don't know anything about Peter Barkhulen. Who was he and what does he say caused him to quit?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

So, the line has been drawn in the sand--the bible or them. What would you pick?

I'll be praying for you that you will make the right choice.

Think carefully and well about it.

May I suggest to you that it is not a question of the the Bible or them. If it was, that would be an easy decision. It is a question of the Bible or man's opinions and conjectures.

When a church asks you to make this kind of decision, it is because they want you to know the seriousness of the situation. They are people who care very much for you and want you to see the dangerous position you are in. I know you probably aren't going to be able to see this, however. Only the Holy Spirit can open your eyes to this reality, Dr. Rich. We've been trying to help you see it for a long time and have so far failed. Now it's going to be completely up to the Holy Spirit. I don't think there's anything more that either we or your pastor can do for you except pray.

[Dr. Rich]

The right to be free to worship and practice one's religious belief has just been struck with a serious blow to the head. So lets just go out and kill everyone to stop them from thinking and speaking things that just don't agree with us! How sad! And you guys actually believe in religious freedom? Give me a break! You are no more better than the RCC who murdered people to keep them from talking to others about what they believed but did not agree with the RCC and it's majority and leadership. If I were to say "what would Jesus do?", I would have to call all of you a bunch of snakes! But I won't.

I will be surprised if this reply is allowed to be seen on this thread because of it's strict policy to censer anything that does not agree with the majority of the Adventist church.

Blessings

[wayfinder]

John317, well stated, you are absoultly correct in every point and I agree with your rational.

This all started when I determined to pattern my life after the Son of God. I studied the words of the New Testiment and it was through these last 17 years that I have come to the place I am today.

John 15

13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you.

15 "No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing ; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.

16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

17 "This I command you, that you love one another.

Disciples' Relation to the World

18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.

19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own ; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

20 "Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

21 "But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me.

22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

23 "He who hates Me hates My Father also

Jesus would not have been talking about the world, in general, here. At the time He said this, the "world", didn't even know of Him. No, He was talking about the religious establishment of the Jews, those who were ploting to kill Him. Jesus was in His kingdom, but not of His kingdom. Jesus came to show the way out of darkness and into the light, the leaders worked hard, by any means, to keep Him from accomplishing this.

Jesus promised that an Elijah type individual would come just before His return. If God's people, at the end of time, were ready, prepared to meet their King, why would they need an Elijah type prophet? No, Ellen White was not this prophet.

[doug yowell]

The right to be free to worship and practice one's religious belief has just been struck with a serious blow to the head. So lets just go out and kill everyone to stop them from thinking and speaking things that just don't agree with us! How sad! And you guys actually believe in religious freedom? Give me a break! You are no more better than the RCC who murdered people to keep them from talking to others about what they believed but did not agree with the RCC and it's majority and leadership. If I were to say "what would Jesus do?", I would have to call all of you a bunch of snakes! But I won't.

I will be surprised if this reply is allowed to be seen on this thread because of it's strict policy to censer anything that does not agree with the majority of the Adventist church.

Blessings

The majority of the SDA church believes in calling those they disagree with snakes? After some of the things I've been called in my life I'd be happy to be called a snake.And I think that we here at CA are not quite ready to murder you.....................yet.

[phkrause]

The right to be free to worship and practice one's religious belief has just been struck with a serious blow to the head. So lets just go out and kill everyone to stop them from thinking and speaking things that just don't agree with us! How sad! And you guys actually believe in religious freedom? Give me a break! You are no more better than the RCC who murdered people to keep them from talking to others about what they believed but did not agree with the RCC and it's majority and leadership. If I were to say "what would Jesus do?", I would have to call all of you a bunch of snakes! But I won't.

I will be surprised if this reply is allowed to be seen on this thread because of it's strict policy to censer anything that does not agree with the majority of the Adventist church.

Blessings

So Dr. Rich someone get murdered? Or did someone get spanked? Other denominations wouldn't tolerate that either. Its one thing to have people over your house and talk about that, but not at church. I agree that you should be free to say what you please but not right in the churches backyard. That I agree is definitely wrong.

[Gerr]

The right to be free to worship and practice one's religious belief has just been struck with a serious blow to the head. So lets just go out and kill everyone to stop them from thinking and speaking things that just don't agree with us! How sad! And you guys actually believe in religious freedom? Give me a break! You are no more better than the RCC who murdered people to keep them from talking to others about what they believed but did not agree with the RCC and it's majority and leadership. If I were to say "what would Jesus do?", I would have to call all of you a bunch of snakes! But I won't.

I will be surprised if this reply is allowed to be seen on this thread because of it's strict policy to censer anything that does not agree with the majority of the Adventist church.

Blessings

As you can see, your post is here for all to see. I seem to recall you mentioning one time that even your own sister Kay cannot stand your theology. Your view on the Scriptures is so out of touch with the rest of Christendom that I don't know of any church that would welcome your teachings. I don't believe that your church is banning you from worshiping with them. They just don't want to hear your heresies on church property. I doubt very much that they told you to stay away from members' homes either. Lucifer was given time to state his case in heaven, but eventually, even he and his followers had to be booted out. Shepherds have to protect their flock especially the young. If you have truth to present, the proper avenue is to discuss with leaders of the church. As liberal as it is, I doubt that even the magazine Adventist Forum would entertain publication of your views.

[Dr. Rich]

Matthew 5:21,22 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not commit murder'.....But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty...."

[John317]

The right to be free to worship and practice one's religious belief has just been struck with a serious blow to the head. So lets just go out and kill everyone to stop them from thinking and speaking things that just don't agree with us! How sad! And you guys actually believe in religious freedom? Give me a break! You are no more better than the RCC who murdered people to keep them from talking to others about what they believed but did not agree with the RCC and it's majority and leadership. If I were to say "what would Jesus do?", I would have to call all of you a bunch of snakes! But I won't.

I don't think this is about religious freedom, Dr.Rich. No one is telling you what you can think or teach. But do you really expect the church to let people use the church to spread doctrines that are opposed to everything the church stands for? Where is the limit to this? Should I be able to go into the church and use their facilities to say that the SDA church is false and that their doctrines are from the devil?

Think about it: isn't that exactly what you are doing, even while claiming that the SDA church is the Kingdom of God?

According to you, this kingdom of God was led by a false prophetess named Jezebel in Rev. 2: 20.

Also, according to you, most of the NT is from the devil.

In addition, you claim that the kingdom of God (SDA church) got its start on the basis of the "Great Embarrassment" which led to a face-saving lie about the Investigative Judgment, a doctrine that is at the very core of the Three Angels Messages.

You are saying the SDA church is the kingdom of God, but at the same time you are saying everything anyone possibly could to undercut its foundations.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

I will be surprised if this reply is allowed to be seen on this thread because of it's strict policy to censer anything that does not agree with the majority of the Adventist church.

Blessings

This is not true, Dr. Rich, and I find it hard to believe you don't know it. There are hundreds of posts made every day on the Forum that don't agree with the majority of the Adventist Church.

You've posted many posts-- over 100 just in the last 30 days, to say nothing of the posts by Wayfinder and Musicman-- that are not in agreement with the Adventist church, and anyone is free to read them if they choose to. So the facts don't support your claim here.

[John317]

John317, well stated, you are absoultly correct in every point and I agree with your rational.

What are your plans now for the class and for your radio program? Did the pastor also talk to you as he did to Dr. Rich?

Apparently the church board made the decision and the pastor's responsibility is to carry out the will of the board.

But it sounds like you understand the decision and aren't angry at the board.

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

...Jesus promised that an Elijah type individual would come just before His return. If God's people, at the end of time, were ready, prepared to meet their King, why would they need an Elijah type prophet? No, Ellen White was not this prophet.

I agree that Ellen White was not the Elijah type individual or prophet. I believe the Elijah message will be given by a people, not by one individual. Do you believe it will be one person?