Should vegaterianism be a test of fellowship?

[Gail]

Would the rare occasion discredit her vegetarian status? It wouldn't in my mind.

[John317]

I was then introduced to the Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement. For those who have not heard of them, they are an offshoot from the Seventh Day Adventist Church. They are also known as the International Missionary Society (IMS). I was considering being baptized into the church but have trouble with that fact that one condition of baptizm is vegetarianism. It is for this reason that I asked the question. I am considering leaving the IMS and attending the original SDA church.

I'm very familiar with the SDA Reform Movment. A member of it was a co-worker of mine at my job, and she gave me literature and we had many good talks together. They have a church within 5 miles of me here in Southern California. I think it's one of the few on the West coast. I've attended it a number of times and have enjoyed worshipping with them. One of the leaders gave me about a dozen books explaining their views.

I don't agree with a number of their positions, such as on the military, diet, the Spirit of prophecy, and the 144,000. They want to make their military position as well as their positions on the SOP and diet conditions of membership in the church and I believe this is wrong.

Having said that, I do have one book by them that I value a great deal. It is called People of the Ark and is written & compiled by Peter D. Lausevic. (It is primarily quotes from Ellen White and the Bible, and very well done. You can access this book online.)

I went to some of Peter Lausevic's meetings and liked them very much. They were on the Spirit of prophecy, which I believe in and support. However, I don't believe they are right in making the spiritual gifts, including Ellen White prophetic ministry, a condition of membership or fellowship.

I believe that confidence in her writings is something that people will come to as they study them and grow spiritually. But I wouldn't want people claiming to accept her in order to be a member of a church. Ellen White herself as well as her husband were always opposed to making her prophetic gift a test, and I completely agree.

[John317]

....she was a complete vegetarian for at most the last 17 years of her life. It apparently took her 35 years to get her own message...

When we consider all the evidence, what you say here does not reflect accurately the whole truth about Ellen White's eating habits. It could give some people the idea that she ate more meat during her last years than she really did.

It's necessary to keep in mind the fact (which I notice you do allude to) that during much of that time, she would go long periods where she didn't eat meat. Also, there were times when she ate meat because of the lack of good vegetarian food, such as aboard a ship on which she was traveling.

And of course, there's the fact that Ellen White frankly loved meat and had a real struggle giving it up. It probably would have been different if she had been a big eater of vegetarian food before, but she wasn't. Beans made her very sick, and much of the other vegetarian dishes were tasteless to her. She and James slaughtered their own hogs for meat up until the late 1850s. It was through the visions God gave her that she learned God doesn't want us eating the flesh of pigs.

Be that as it may, Ellen White was not alone in taking a while to "get" their own message. How many preachers teach things they themselves don't always obey? And did Peter himself obey the message God showed him in Acts 10 & 11? Did David always obey the messages he taught in the Psalms? Did Moses always obey God? The answer to each of these is no.

But that is different from saying they wrote falsehoods or things that are wrong. Therefore the fact that Ellen White took a long time struggling to lay aside a meat diet is no excuse for anyone to ignore her counsels on diet & health.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

....she was a complete vegetarian for at most the last 17 years of her life. It apparently took her 35 years to get her own message...

When we consider all the evidence, what you say here does not reflect accurately the whole truth about Ellen White's eating habits.

It's necessary to keep in mind the fact (as I notice you do allude to it) that during much of that time, she would go long periods where she didn't eat meat. Also, there were times when she ate meat because of the lack of good vegetarian food, such as aboard a ship on which she was traveling.

And of course, there's the fact that Ellen White frankly loved meat and had a real struggle giving it up. It probably would have been different if she had been a big eater of vegetarian food before, but she wasn't. Beans made her very sick, and much of the other vegetarian dishes were tasteless to her. She and James slaughtered their own hogs for meat up until the late 1850s. It was through the visions God gave her that she learned God doesn't want us eating the flesh of pigs.

Be that as it may, Ellen White was not alone in taking a while to "get" their own message. How many preachers teach things they themselves don't always obey? And did Peter himself obey the message God showed him in Acts 10 & 11? Did David always obey the messages he taught in the Psalms? Did Moses always obey God? The answer to each of these is no.

But that is different from saying they wrote falsehoods or things that are wrong. Therefore the fact that Ellen White took a long time struggling to lay aside a meat diet is no excuse for anyone to ignore her counsels on diet & health.

I grew up in my grandparents home (1950's)where meat was never served. As my grandpa was a R&H employee I naturally assumed that all or most of the GC and R&H employees were vegetarian too. Years later my mom told me that he was probably the only one who was. Maybe a couple of others but the overwhelming majority were not.We're talking GC presidents,conference presidents,R&H editors,ect...Obviously not a standard test of faith.

[phkrause]

I grew up in my grandparents home (1950's)where meat was never served. As my grandpa was a R&H employee I naturally assumed that all or most of the GC and R&H employees were vegetarian too. Years later my mom told me that he was probably the only one who was. Maybe a couple of others but the overwhelming majority were not.We're talking GC presidents,conference presidents,R&H editors,ect...Obviously not a standard test of faith.

I grew up in a home that did eat meat, we were not Adventist's at the time, but we did keep a kosher home. My father being Jewish and all, my Mom was not but was a better Jew than most of my other relatives. So when we did become SDAs we didn't have to change much of our eating habits. Than I went to work for FFT and they took us out to eat once because we got out of the red. Well at the restaurant a number of people order vegetarian dishes. When it came to me to order, I ordered a steak, and would you believe it all those that order before me all changed there orders. I thought that was funny. We should be who we are not what others want us to be. Today I don't eat red meat at all, chicken, turkey once in a while. I do eat Fish a little more often than the chicken & turkey, probably once a month.

[Rasor11]

.

[Gordon1]

As my grandpa was a R&H employee I naturally assumed that all or most of the GC and R&H employees were vegetarian too. Years later my mom told me that he was probably the only one who was. Maybe a couple of others but the overwhelming majority were not.We're talking GC presidents,conference presidents,R&H editors,ect...Obviously not a standard test of faith.

Interesting testimony on top of pk's restaurant date.

You're probably aware that the onus on ministers and officers to leave off flesh food is more serious as per EGW.

Perhaps you've read a similar account called "Anti-Meat Special" by S.A. Nagel. He was ridiculed by conference peers for his hygenic diet. I believe he was the GC Medical Officer at the time but can't verify that title from my present location. John probably knows. Since there are so many 'off the wagon' at the GC level, I seriously question the validity of the reports about EGW's continued meat eating. There would be strong motive to show her a hypocrite and not an overcomer. As Gail said, a few exceptions do not change one's vegetarian status. The real deal is: do we crave those things that will destroy us. If so it indicates an enduring lust. This is not overcoming, but an appetite which controls us.

[Dr. Shane]

Pescatarian = one who eats fish?

I personally am a vegetarian. I get Omega-3 in fish oil capsules (recommended by my doctor).

Yes, a pescatarian is one that eats only fish. I started eating fish because of its healthful benefits. The same reason doctors recommend it. No difference between eating fish and taking fish oil. Fish oil has all the good things that fish has and all the bad (mercury). Evidence shows the good outweighs the bad. Small fish are better than big fish.

[nuff sed]

Shane: If you are looking for Omega 3 try using Chia seeds. Cheapest I have found is Nuts Online if you purchase a minimum of 5 lbs. Nuff sed

[doug yowell]

Shane: If you are looking for Omega 3 try using Chia seeds. Cheapest I have found is Nuts Online if you purchase a minimum of 5 lbs. Nuff sed

Club Adventist is another place where you can readily find nuts online.

[Dr. Shane]

The problem is that there are not a lot of restaurants that have Chia seeds on the menu. Study after study comes back saying the fish increases longevity and standard of living. Of course not all fish is created equal. Fried fish, like all fried stuff, is not a good option. Big fish has more mercury than small fish.

[Gail]

Shane: If you are looking for Omega 3 try using Chia seeds. Cheapest I have found is Nuts Online if you purchase a minimum of 5 lbs. Nuff sed

We have chia seeds at home, also hemp hearts, both purchased at our local Adventist bread store. I'm not sure that I would call them tasty but they do build up bulk in your meal BESIDES providing the good stuff that they do.

[nuff sed]

Interesting...the variety of stuff that keeps cropping up. I keep seeing Yo-yos here regularly... Nuff sed

[John317]

I grew up in my grandparents home (1950's)where meat was never served. As my grandpa was a R&H employee I naturally assumed that all or most of the GC and R&H employees were vegetarian too. Years later my mom told me that he was probably the only one who was. Maybe a couple of others but the overwhelming majority were not.We're talking GC presidents,conference presidents,R&H editors,ect...Obviously not a standard test of faith.

That's interesting, Doug. I grew up in a family that was strictly vegetarian, although for most of those years we did eat cottage cheese, cow milk (along with soy milk, which I love), eggs, and cheese. We usually had a large garden and so I got used to eating fresh fruits and vegetables, which is how I still prefer to eat.

I had my first bite of meat at a friend's house when I was about 8, and then later I took one more bite of meat-- turkey-- at another friend's house when I was 16. Other than those two small bites, I was a vegetarian until I got in the army. In the army I think I would have starved if I'd only eaten vegetarian food.

Since then, I've been the only member of my family who eats meat sometimes. My sisters don't understand how I can eat carcases, and I used to think the same way. My folks never touched it and were rarely sick in their lifetimes. They both died in their 90s.

My wife was Catholic and ate a lot of meat when we married, but since then, she has changed her diet (voluntarily). If she didn't fix meat now, I wouldn't eat it. When I don't get it, I don't miss it at all. I prefer a vegetarian diet. Now I'm planning on stopping all meat-eating altogether.

[John317]

Hi John317 I've often wondered about the 144,000. Could you tell a little about who the SDA church says the 144,000 are?

The SDA church doesn't have an official view of the identity of the 144,000. There are a variety of beliefs among church members regarding that group. SDAs believe that the characteristics of the 144,000 is more important than their number or exactly who they are. Everyone should strive by God's grace and power to have their qualitieis, wich is purity and complete devotion to Christ. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes, and they never tell a lie. They also haven't soiled themselves with the false doctrines of the fallen churches. The fact that the Father's name is written in their foreheads signifies that they reflect God's character.

You might want to Google "Doug Batchelor" and look for the little booklet he wrote on the 144,000. He's a well-known SDA evangelist and speaker/writer. By the way, Doug Batchelor is a Jewish SDA.

Let me know if I've helped answer your question.

[Dr. Rich]

I've often wondered about the 144,000. Could you tell a little about who the SDA church says the 144,000 are?

[John317]

...While John is correct on the church's view, I would suggest you do your own study from the bible on this issue before listening to what others tell you.

I agree with you on this, Dr. Rich. Everyone needs to study for himself with the Holy Spirit as his teacher, but the Holy Spirit uses other Christians to help us. God saves us as individuals, but He is leading out a church, not separate individuals here and there.

[FLO]

If this was the case and Jesus was around today, I guess He wouldn't qualify to be an SDA. He ate fish.

[Tammy]

Of her own experience, she says,

Quote:

It is reported by some that I have not followed the principles of health reform as I have advocated them with my pen; but I can say that I have been a faithful health reformer. Those who have been members of my family know that this is true. {9T 159.1}

I do not trust what Coon or others say about her, unless it agrees with what she says about herself. I believe that Satan works through men like Coon, to cast doubt on Ellen White.

[Tom Wetmore]

Coon was an administrator of the Ellen G White Estate and among the strongest advocates and defenders of EGW and her prophetic ministry. What he wrote was based on very thorough research of what she wrote on the matter. He is a reliable source on this topic. The referenced article by Coon is on the official Ellen G White website. They would not allow it to be there if it were not accurate and truthful about her and her writings.

[Tammy]

Well Tom, do you believe Ellen White or Coon?

[Tom Wetmore]

Why don't you just read what Coon wrote and just see how much he relied on what EGW said and wrote. Then come back and let's discuss it.

Stop and think about it. Why would the official Ellen G White estate keep Coon's article on their website if it wasn't the truth?

[Woody]

A year by year Chronology:

Her health reform vision against meat was in 1863.

1864 After One Year's Trial--Benefits Received

(1864) Sp. Gifts IV, 153, 154

I have thought for years that I was dependent upon a meat diet for strength. I have eaten three meals a day until within a few months. It has been very difficult for me to go from one meal to another without suffering from faintness at the stomach, and dizziness of the head. Eating would remove these feelings. I seldom allowed myself to eat anything between my regular meals, and have made it a practice to often retire without supper. But I have suffered greatly for want of food from breakfast to dinner, and have frequently fainted. Eating meat removed for the time these faint feelings. I therefore decided that meat was indispensable in my case. {CD 482.2}

But since the Lord presented before me, in June, 1863, the subject of meat eating in relation to health, I have left the use of meat. For a while it was rather difficult to bring my appetite to bread, for which, formerly, I had but little relish. But by persevering, I have been able to do this. I have lived for nearly one year without meat. For about six months most of the bread upon our table has been unleavened cakes, made of unbolted wheat meal and water, and a very little salt. We use fruits and vegetables liberally. I have lived for eight months upon two meals a day. {CD 482.3}

IN 1873 She ate duck. See Manuscript 12, 1873

"A few weeks after the duck eating experience in the Rockies in October 1873, Elder and Mrs. White were in California and she on February 15, 1874, reported that since they had been in that state they had dropped meat entirely, having "bought meat once for May Walling while she was sick, but not a penny have we expended for meat since."--Letter 12, 1874, p. 1. {7MR 346.4}

Yet, in 1876 she calmly talks about eating salmon a number of times at home while her husband was gone. Check this out in MR vol 14 p.336

1878 ... "Christmas morning we all took breakfast together--James Cornell; Florence and Clara, their two girls; Brother and Sister Moore and their three children; Sister Bahler and Etta, a girl living with them; and Sister Daniells, our cook, Father, and myself. We had a quarter of venison cooked, and stuffing. It was as tender as a chicken. We all enjoyed it very much. There is plenty of venison in market." 14MR 318

"Thursday morning we arose from our births refreshed with sleep. At eight o'clock we took a portion of the pressed chicken food liberally furnished us by the matron of the sanitarium, put the same in a two-quart pail, and placed it on the stove, and thus we had good hot chicken broth and enjoyed our breakfast. The morning was very cold and this hot dish was very palatable. ... We have plenty of room, good food and plenty of it. Sister McComber scalded up the chicken. Will scald the meat tomorrow morning."10. E.G. White, Letter 6a, 1880. Published in Manuscript Releases, Vol. 11, pp. 142, 147

1882 she asked her daughter in law "If you can get me a good box of herrings, fresh ones, please do so. These last ones that Willie got are bitter and old. ... If you can get a few cans of good oysters, get them" Letter 16 1882

In 1894 she had a reconversion about meat because of a Catholic women (Mrs. Press) and stated "Since the camp meeting at Brighton (January 1894) I have absolutely banished meat from my table" CDF 88

Again in 1894 she stated "But when the selfishness of taking lives of animals to gratify a perverted appetite was presented to me by a Catholic woman, kneeling at my feet, I felt ashamed and distressed ... I said 'I will no longer patronize the butcher, I will not have the flesh of corpses on my table'" Test p. 38

In 1895 she asked her son to buy some "dried codfish and dried fish of ANY description --- nothing canned". Letter 149

1896 "I use fish when I can get it. We get beautiful fish from the salt water lake near here." Letter 128 1896

1907 ... she wrote .... "I said to Sara,'take chickens from my place and prepare them some broth" CDF 466

What my point is ....

And I will quote her .... "we do not want to force anyone to give up its (meat) use". Letter 48 1902

And this from 1909 ...

"Should health reform in its most extreme form be taught to those whose circumstances forbid its adoption, more harm than good would be done. .... The gospel must be preached to the poor, but the time has not yet come to prescribe the strictest diet" GCB June 2 1909 p. 270

[R. & H., MAY 27, 1902] C.H. 575, 576

"Greater reforms should be seen among the people who claim to be looking for the soon appearing of Christ. Health reform is to do among our people a work which it has not yet done. There are those who ought to be awake to the danger of meat eating, who are still eating the flesh of animals, thus endangering the physical, mental, and spiritual health. Many who are now only half converted on the question of meat eating will go from God's people to walk no more with them."

Again ... I find no problem with her addiction to meat. If you do a little research you will find that she ate all kinds of meat throught out her life. It just shows she was human and recognized that not all should be forced to abide by health reform. We each do the best we can.

This is good news to me. I would not want to condemn others for the use of meat. Jesus ate fish and beef and encouraged others to also. But for certain ... we are not to condemn others for doing so.

[phkrause]

Excellent points Woody. I would also add that I believe that her health reform might of at that time, have been getting away from unclean foods. And also from just eating meat at every meal, as many do.

[Woody]

Excellent points Woody. I would also add that I believe that her health reform might of at that time, have been getting away from unclean foods. And also from just eating meat at every meal, as many do.

Good Points pk. What I like is that we have a prophet in our church that struggled just as we do. That is very comforting to me. It does not in any way diminish her status as prophet as some might claim.