The Doctrines of Babylon...

[Guest]

Editorial- Kingly Power

by Pastor John Grosboll

You have in your hands a controversial statement about what has happened recently in Adventism. Although the easiest response would be to ignore or destroy it. Several historical facts documented in this magazine are probably opposite to what you have heard prior to this, but you should at least have an opportunity to examine the position of Adventists who hold a different view from your own on some recent developments within Adventism.

(The link to the article he is talking about is at the bottom of the page)

As a friend of the author who wrote the material for this special magazine, I would encourage you to read it in its entirety. In my opinion, the author has demonstrated a godly character and has not been convicted of heresy as a Seventh-day Adventist minister. He has also been a teacher of ministerial students for the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Is there not a chance that he might have something to say about the present situation in Adventism that you would want to examine carefully?

Just as things turned out very differently than God’s people thought at the first coming, they could turn out very differently than any of us think now. “Let no one feel that he is secure from the danger of being surprised.” Fundamentals of Education, 335.

The devil will attempt to push every Adventist minister or layman into the ditch on one side or the other. Some ministers are afraid to preach the Three Angels’ Messages today, because these messages are unpopular and are against popular sentiment and feeling in regard to other churches.

It is not acceptable for any believer in the Three Angels’ Messages to attempt to forbid any other worker from proclaiming them. But it is in the best interest of all for there to be counsel among those who wish to see the Three Angels’ Messages go to all the world and triumph soon.

Because of the polarization that has occurred among different people, all believing the Three Angels’ Messages, there is scarcely any communication between different groups who all want to see the work progress and be finished. This is one of the reasons for this special edition—it is high time for different groups of people in Adventism, who really want to see the soon-triumph of the Three Angels’ Messages, to understand what other groups are doing. It is time to seek to come into a unity of Spirit with what the Lord is doing, rather than building forts and trying to destroy each other in the courts, or in any other manner.

It is a time for every Adventist layman and minister to not only seek to communicate the Three Angels’ Messages to the world, but to seek to do so by the wisest methods, asking counsel from the Lord and from experienced workers.

“There must be no concealing of the principles of our faith. The Third Angel’s Message is to be sounded by God’s people. It is to swell to the Loud Cry. The Lord has a time appointed when He will bind off the work; but when is that time? When the truth proclaimed for these last days shall go forth as a witness to all nations, then shall the end come. If the power of Satan can come into the very temple of God and manipulate things as he pleases, the time of preparation will be prolonged.—Letter 83, 1896. Publishing Ministry, 389.

“The Third Angel’s Message is now to be proclaimed in every land. It is to be borne to English-witness to all nations, then shall the end come. If the power of Satan can come into the very temple of God and manipulate things as he pleases, the time of preparation will be prolonged.—Letter 83, 1896. Publishing Ministry, 389.

“The Third Angel’s Message is now to be proclaimed in every land. It is to be borne to English-speaking people, and to those of every other language.” Review and Herald, July 7, 1903.

“The mighty cry of the Third Angel will be heard in the earth, his glory will lighten the world, and the message will triumph, but those who do not walk in its light will not triumph with it...” Selected Messages, Book 3, 390.

“The solemn time has come when ministers should be weeping between the porch and the altar, crying, ‘Spare Thy people, O Lord, and give not Thine heritage to reproach.’ Joel 2:17. It is a day when, instead of lifting up their souls in self-sufficiency, ministers and people should be confessing their sins before God and one another.” Ibid.

“The truth of the Third Angel’s Message is bound to triumph, and those who purify their souls from all defilement will triumph with it.” Sermons and Talks, vol. 2, 131.

It is commonly believed that, no matter what happens, the “church” is going through. This is what God’s chosen people thought in Jesus’ day also. But what they thought was going through did not go through. The most foundational conflict in Adventism today is “who and what is the church?”

This magazine will describe the fact that hundreds and thousands of people in various parts of the world are being separated from the “church.” They are being disfellowshipped. It is then proclaimed far and near that these people are the tares who are being separated from the wheat, that they must either stop what they are doing or not have any part in the Latter Rain of the Holy Spirit and the Loud Cry—the final thrust of the Three Angels’ Messages. If they do not participate in either the Latter Rain or the Loud Cry, then, of course, they will not be prepared to go through the time of trouble and meet Jesus in peace and joy. So these are serious charges.

Since the Lord is only going to translate those who are part of the “church” (Revelation 19:7, 8) it is the most critical thing in the world for every professed Adventist to know whether he or she is really a part of the church or not. This is especially true when he or she is disfellowshipped, as is happening so often now. It is critical to know whether Luther and Melanchthon’s definition of the church really was true or not.

For those who need more information, the last page shows how to access the Steps to Life Web page for further research.

Steps to Life is involved in radio and television evangelism and in international evangelistic projects as well as in both Bible correspondence schools and evangelistic projects in the United States and abroad. It is our goal to bring as many as possible into the fold before the work is closed up and no Adventist minister is able to openly do evangelism.

“In the days of the Reformation, the gentle and pious Melancthon declared, ‘There is no other church than the assembly of those who have the word of God, and who are purified by it.’ The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 4, 237.

So, find a quiet place for thought and reflection and read this article and possibly expand your thoughts on recent actions in Adventism. Be a Berean!

Here is the article to which he is referring. It is written by Ralph Larson:

http://www.stepstolife.org/landmark/special/gen_inquis.html

[Guest]

Are you saying in #2 that we can be absolutely sinless here and now before Jesus comes?

Absolutely!

[John317]

Thanks for post, Richard. Ralph Larson was the pastor at the Loma Linda Hill Church for about 8 years back in the late 70s through the 80s, and I really appreciated him a lot. He shouldn't be confused with his son, David Larson.

[John317]

I was pastor in Ukraine in Luhans'k and was expelled for message about idolatry in SDA church. I used to say about worshiping to authorities and to the Law among adventists openly.

I'd be interested to know what you are doing since you stopped being an SDA pastor.

What was your essential message about idolatry and what did you say about worshpping and the Law?

[Dr. Waite]

It does not state that the Holy Scriptures are the "ONLY" infallible revelation of His will. Therefore, the person who wrote this beleives that there are other infallible revelations of His will.

[John317]

I don't get that from our Fundamental Beliefs as they are written today. Do you?

What other infallible standard besides the Bible is there? As a church and a people we've never believed that Ellen White is infallible, although individuals have believed it. She denied this herself. She said God alone is infallible. According to the Bible, even the Bible prophets were not infallible.

[doug yowell]

Thanks for post, Richard. Ralph Larson was the pastor at the Loma Linda Hill Church for about 8 years back in the late 70s through the 80s, and I really appreciated him a lot. He shouldn't be confused with his son, David Larson.

I wonder how the two get along?

[John317]

I wonder how the two get along?

Of course the father died a few years back, but I'm not really sure of their relationship before his passing. I believe they loved and respected each other, but I know their disagreements had to be very wide and deep. In some ways, David's theology is almost the antithesis of his dad's.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

I wonder how the two get along?

Of course the father died a few years back, but I'm not really sure of their relationship before his passing. I believe they loved and respected each other, but I know their disagreements had to be very wide and deep. In some ways, David's theology is almost the antithesis of his dad's.

I believe you're right.Too bad. Theological enemies. I've always seen the spiritual aspect of the human makeup as by far the most intimate.Must've been painful for dad.

[jasd]

QR frame:

Umm, before further wandering off along a rabbit trail without compass – a premise incorporating Biblical certitudes for ‘Babylon’ ought to be set forth. I mean,

as the first several OPs seemingly opine fetishes for the too easily stimulated – as is, it unfortunately serves (notwithstanding the mixed metaphors) as ‘whole cloth’ from which emerges botoxed rote on steroids.

Shrillness

Xtianity, the ekklesia, comprises – not the part – but the main. Remember (the doctrinally confused among us), the House of Judah practiced religious pollution more than did her sister the House of Israel (even burying alive her children in the foundations of their houses – as sacrifices to demon beings) – yet, Gd is never found, in Holy Writ, to have divorced her – as He did the House of Israel. (given that, we might wanna rethink our definition of the Biblically prophetic Babylon)

If there is no other than the one thing that the ‘peculiar’ .Org does ‘Babylonish’ – it is to render Gd’s ‘remnant’ unto Caesar/State – rather than unto Gd; thereby serving as false shepherds to a flock untended, except by hairy (ought I to have said hoary?) traditions...

Peace

[wayfinder]

You must get married before you get a divorce. After divorcing the first group and kicking them out of His house, God offered marriage to the returning exiles, if they would prove themselves different than their fathers, this they never did. The "minor" prophets are clear evidence of this fact.

Jesus final statement to the Jews/Judah.

Matthew 23

33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell ?

34 "Therefore , behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes ; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Lament over Jerusalem

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling .

38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate !

39 "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD !' "

[Guest]

Another point.

The Roman Church has managed to infiltrate many of its pagan doctrines into its daughters, the fallen protestant churches.

But not one pagan doctrine has gained a foothold in the only true Protestant and Apostolic Church that is left on this earth.

The Seventh Day Adventist Church.

But what is really important here, is that the pagan doctrines have been inserted into the churches through the direct activity of the Roman Catholic Church.

All except one.

And she strives to capture that one at every opportunity as well...

Are you very sure of this? I have seen the case made that we took our trinity doctrine from the Roman church.

[jasd]

>>You must get married before you get a divorce.<<

And doesn’t Writ tell us that Gd did indeed marry both Aholah and Aholibah?—thereafter divorcing Aholah?

It is possible that I erred in not having found a text establishing that Gd divorced the House of Judah as He did the House of Israel. Disabuse me.

>>After divorcing the first group and kicking them out of His house,<<

Do you speak of the House of Israel as the “first group”?—or do you speak of all of the COI who were cast out of the land?

>>God offered marriage to the returning exiles, if they would prove themselves different than their fathers,<<

Wouldn’t there have to be a substantiating text showing that Gd divorced the House of Judah before their return as exiles?—and wouldn’t that have gone directly against the Mosaic laws should Gd have remarried the one whom He had already divorced?

>>...this they never did. The "minor" prophets are clear evidence of this fact.<<

Given the Mosaic law against remarrying the one who had been given a bill of divorcement – wouldn’t the above quote be moot? As I understand it –

it is only the death of Jesus Christ which permits Him to remarry the House of Israel, as it were...

>>38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate !

Is that synonymous with divorce?—or does it just mean desolation?—which would, or would not suspend the prophetic timeline re the House of Judah? And, would that mean that

today's Jews who are gathering in Old Cannanland are somehow different in their 'desolation' from those whom Gd married?

>>'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD !' "<<

When do you think that will be?-–when the House of Judah shall say, “BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!"

[Gerr]

It does not state that the Holy Scriptures are the "ONLY" infallible revelation of His will. Therefore, the person who wrote this beleives that there are other infallible revelations of His will.

The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines,

To me, that pretty much rules out other sources.

[Twilight]

The Roman Church has managed to infiltrate many of its pagan doctrines into its daughters, the fallen protestant churches.

But not one pagan doctrine has gained a foothold in the only true Protestant and Apostolic Church that is left on this earth.

The Seventh Day Adventist Church.

But what is really important here, is that the pagan doctrines have been inserted into the churches through the direct activity of the Roman Catholic Church.

All except one.

And she strives to capture that one at every opportunity as well...

Twilight

________________________________

Twilight, there were those in the days of Christ who taught that the Jewish organization (they were Seventh-day Adventists) would always be exalted as the church of God. They too believed and taught that this was the only church or people who were free from pagan teachings etc etc

Yet Jesus said that they had become the slaves of sin and the representatives of Satan. (See D.A.36)

We have been told so many times that we were repeating their history to the very letter. Over the years, the Lord has sent testimony after testimony to the effect that this church was following in the track of Romanism. (See T.M.363) Another testimony said that "a blacksliding church always narrows its distance between itself and the papacy."

Would that not explain why the Lord said that as a church we had less to say about the papal power? (See T.M.112)

Let me ask you a question, Do we not in this church make a distinction between the "clergy" and the "laity" and is that not of the "clerical" spirit which is the spirit of domination, which is the papal spirit?

"The spirit of domination is extending to the presidents of our conferences." Testinomines to Ministers, p.362.

In the Review and Herald of the year 1903 officials of the General Conference published an article claiming that the system of organization adopted by the Seventh-day Adventist church was the Mosaic Order, the very order that was adopted in the second century and which led to 1260 years of papal dominance!

In the seasons of the night, the Lord gave Mrs. White a dream in which she could see the leaders of the church walking two and two toward the building she was in at Battle Creek. She was about to open the door to let them in when she decided to look again. "The scene was changed. The company now presented the appearance of a Catholic procession. One bore in his hand a cross, another a reed. And as they approached, the one carrying a reed made a circle around the house, saying three times: 'This house is proscribed! The goods must be confiscated. They have spoken against our holy order.'" See Testimonies, Vol.1, p.578.

Years later A.T. Jones was accused of having spoken against their "holy order" while he was teaching the third angel's message. So he was tried, judged, and sentenced, 4,000 miles away without him being given one single chance to be heard!

This is only one example of the "high-handed power" that had been developing in the professed church of Christ. Mrs. White said, "This high-handed power that has been developed makes me afraid and ought to cause fear." Testimonies to Ministers, p.361

Later the Lord sent a testimony saying that if this order of things was allowed to continue, their faith would soon become extinct. This "kingly power" or "high-handed power" has been allowed to continue until this our day. "The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devising of men. If you allow this to continue your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481.

That being the case, how could we ever claim to be the only church that has not succumbed to the sophistries of the enemy especially when the Lord has told us that we had put Him aside! The Lord sent a warning saying, "Organizations, institutions, unless kept by the power of God will work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men; and fraud and guile will bear the semblance of zeal for truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of God. Whatever in our practice is not as open as day belongs to the methods of the prince of evil. His methods are practiced even among Seventh-day Adventists, who claim to have advanced truth." Testimonies to Ministers, p.366.

This apostasy, we are warned, is to wax stronger and stronger until Jesus comes in the clouds of Heaven.

So let us remember that within the Jewish organization there was what the Spirit of the Lord calls a "little church" led by Christ. So it is today. God still has a "little church," faithful few who will not allow this "clerical spirit" or the "spirit of domination" to rule over them for they have the word of their Commander, "It shall not be so among you." Matt.20:25.

What say you?

sky

I would say that we apostacise, not when the leadership behaves badly, but when we adopt the doctrines of Babylon my friend. :-)

Unless it can be show to do that, the bad behaviour of chuch members does not cause the church to lose its doctrinal purity.

[Twilight]

It is interesting that the references to support the mistaken belief that the old and new testament is all inspired by God are from verses that only support the "Law and the Prophets"--and that was it. There was no such thing as a "new testament" when all of these reference texts were written.

What the leaders of the SDA church have done is place themselves at a much higher level of judgment than God Himself. Why? Because if just ONE word of the bible was NOT inspired by God, then they have called God a liar--by falsly testifying about what God did not do. Think about this for a few minutes and let it soak in.

Sorry Dr Rich, this is not a discussion about the new Canon you want to present to us all.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Another point.

The Roman Church has managed to infiltrate many of its pagan doctrines into its daughters, the fallen protestant churches.

But not one pagan doctrine has gained a foothold in the only true Protestant and Apostolic Church that is left on this earth.

The Seventh Day Adventist Church.

But what is really important here, is that the pagan doctrines have been inserted into the churches through the direct activity of the Roman Catholic Church.

All except one.

And she strives to capture that one at every opportunity as well...

Are you very sure of this? I have seen the case made that we took our trinity doctrine from the Roman church.

I have never had reason to doubt that the Trinity is biblical Richard.

For it to be Babylonian, it would have to be shown to be non-biblical and pagan in origin.

But I do not think that case has ever been established by those that oppose the trinity.

The doctrines I am pointing to, are those that are clearly not Biblical and have pagan origins.

Just to clarify my position. :-)

[doug yowell]

[The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines,

To me, that pretty much rules out other sources.

Me too.

[doug yowell]

The doctrines I am pointing to, are those that are clearly not Biblical and have pagan origins.

Just to clarify my position. :-)

That's still not clear to me definitionally(is that a word?). I've never seen the case for the pagan origins of Sunday substitution for the Sabbath.This appears to be something that the early church is completely responsible for.Are you saying either/or? Or strictly both?

[phkrause]

Are you very sure of this? I have seen the case made that we took our trinity doctrine from the Roman church.

I have never had reason to doubt that the Trinity is biblical Richard.

For it to be Babylonian, it would have to be shown to be non-biblical and pagan in origin.

But I do not think that case has ever been established by those that oppose the trinity.

The doctrines I am pointing to, are those that are clearly not Biblical and have pagan origins.

Just to clarify my position. :-)

I just watched an episode of "Pillars of Our Faith" w/David Asscherick, called "The Trinity" where he shows that its Biblical and before the RCC introduced this. Its the 2nd program out of 15. Its really good.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The doctrines I am pointing to, are those that are clearly not Biblical and have pagan origins.

Just to clarify my position. :-)

That's still not clear to me definitionally(is that a word?). I've never seen the case for the pagan origins of Sunday substitution for the Sabbath.This appears to be something that the early church is completely responsible for.Are you saying either/or? Or strictly both?

Sunday Worship is pagan in origin.

Not biblical.

So therefore Babylonian in origin so to speak.

Does that make sense?

[Twilight]

I just watched an episode of "Pillars of Our Faith" w/David Asscherick, called "The Trinity" where he shows that its Biblical and before the RCC introduced this. Its the 2nd program out of 15. Its really good.

Sounds interesting PK. :-)

[Twilight]

Although I think we have to be careful trying to define God and the trinity too closely as I am not sure we can understand too much.

[phkrause]

Here is a link to part 1. Its really great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIm32YYLNpE

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcPK7Ye-mGc&feature=related

Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db1O9LByYH4&feature=related

Part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMbaJfuNC7o&feature=related

Part 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RhpMas132E&feature=related

Part 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvXzUn6erE&feature=related

Part 7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FLu99udVTk&feature=related

Enjoy, I do hope its all there. I didn't watch it here, I watched it on 3ABN, so the whole thing was all together.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Are you saying in #2 that we can be absolutely sinless here and now before Jesus comes?

Absolutely!

If you are referring to Christ's righteousness placed in our our account, I would agree with you. If you mean perfect performance on our part, I would have to see evidence.