The Doctrines of Babylon...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Absolutely!

If you are referring to Christ's righteousness placed in our our account, I would agree with you. If you mean perfect performance on our part, I would have to see evidence.

Christ commanded us to "abide in Him".

That means that we can do what He has commanded...

That is how we can walk with Him without sinning. :-)

[Twilight]

Here is a link to part 1. Its really great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIm32YYLNpE

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcPK7Ye-mGc&feature=related

Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db1O9LByYH4&feature=related

Part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMbaJfuNC7o&feature=related

Part 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RhpMas132E&feature=related

Part 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvXzUn6erE&feature=related

Part 7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FLu99udVTk&feature=related

Enjoy, I do hope its all there. I didn't watch it here, I watched it on 3ABN, so the whole thing was all together.

Thanks PK, although I am not sure when I will get the chance to watch it!

[Guest]

I've never seen the case for the pagan origins of Sunday substitution for the Sabbath.This appears to be something that the early church is completely responsible for.Are you saying either/or? Or strictly both?

Really Doug? You didn't know that sunday worship came straight out of paganism? It did.

"The [Catholic] Church took the pagan buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon [the Roman], temple to all the gods, and made it sacred to all the martyrs; so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday . . The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom. Balder the beautiful: the White God, the old Scandinavians called him. The sun has worshipers at this very hour in Persia and other lands . . Hence the Church would seem to have said, ‘Keep that old pagan name. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.’ And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus. The sun is a fitting emblem of Jesus. The Fathers often compared Jesus to the sun; as they compared Mary to the moon."—William L. Gildea, "Paschale Gaudium," in The Catholic World, p. 58, March 1894.

"The Church made a sacred day of Sunday . . largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun;—for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and give them a Christian significance."—Authur Weigall, The Paganism in Our Christianity, 1928, p. 145.

"Remains of the struggle [between the religion of Christianity and the religion of Mithraism] are found in two institutions adopted from its rival by Christianity in the fourth century, the two Mithraic sacred days: December 25, ‘dies natalis solis’ [birthday of the sun], as the birthday of Jesus,—and Sunday, ‘the venerable day of the Sun,’ as Constantine called it in his edict of 321."—Walter Woodburn Hyde, Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire, p. 60.

"Sun worship was the earliest idolatry."—Fausset Bible Dictionary, p. 666.

" ‘Babylon, the mother of harlots,’ derived much of her teaching from pagan Rome and thence from Babylon. Sun worship—that led her to Sundaykeeping,—was one of those choice bits of paganism that sprang originally from the heathen lore of ancient Babylon: The solar theology of the ‘Chaldeans’ had a decisive effect upon the final development of Semitic paganism . . [it led to their] seeing the sun the directing power of the cosmic system. All the Baals were thence forward turned into suns; the sun itself being the mover of the other stars—like it eternal and ‘unconquerable’ . . Such was the final form reached by the religion of the pagan Semites, and following them, by that of the Romans . . when they raised ‘Sol Invictus’ [the Invincible Sun] to the rank of supreme divinity in the empire."—Franz F. V. M. Cummont, Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans, p. 55.

"Constantine labored at this time untiringly to unite the worshipers of the old and the new into one religion. All his laws and contrivances are aimed at promoting this amalgamation of means melt together a purified heathenism and a moderated Christianity . . Of all his blending and melting together of Christianity and heathenism, none is more easy to see through than this making of his Sunday law: The Christians worshiped their Christ, the heathen their sun-god [so they should now be combined]."—H. G. Heggtveit, Illustreret Kirkehistorie, 1895, p. 202.

"These Gentile Christians of Rome and Alexandria began calling the first day of the week ‘the Lord’s day.’ This was not difficult for the pagans of the Roman Empire who were steeped in sun worship to accept, because they [the pagans] referred to their sun-god as their ‘Lord.’ "—E. M. Chalmers, How Sunday Came into the Christian Church, p. 3.

[Gerr]

Christ commanded us to "abide in Him".

That means that we can do what He has commanded...

That is how we can walk with Him without sinning. :-)

Sinful acts that go through the will (intentional/deliberate), I believe we can stop doing by divine grace. But as long as we are in this fallen body, we'll never shed sins that bypass the will (unintentional) until we are given new bodies.

[Guest]

Gerry it may be hard to imagine, but God says there will be a group of people who do, so I have to believe it. God says look at them, these are my people.

Rev 14:4,5 These are they who were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Col 4:12 ...that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

One of the reasons you find this hard to believe Gerry, is because you don't believe that Jesus truly took on our sinful nature. But He did. The Bible and the SoP both declare it. So He has already acomplished what this group of people will, with nothing more than the same power that is available to us.

It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man’s nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {CSA 6}

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

[Guest]

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative Judgment is going forward in Heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14.

When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for his appearing. “Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.” [Malachi 3:4.] Then the church which our Lord at his coming is to receive to himself will be “a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing.” Ephesians 5:27. {GC88 425}

[Gerr]

One of the reasons you find this hard to believe Gerry, is because you don't believe that Jesus truly took on our sinful nature. But He did. The Bible and the SoP both declare it. So He has already acomplished what this group of people will, with nothing more than the same power that is available to us.

If by "Jesus truly took on our sinful nature" you mean that He was born with an inclination or propensity to commit sin, NO, I definitely do not believe it. Consider what the Bible says about Him.

1. Lk 1:32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High."

2. Lk 1:35 “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God."

He was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit, and was called "HOLY" from conception. NO human being can claim this kind of origin.

3. Second Adam: "....Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." Rom 5:14. " Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit." 1 Cor 15:45.

Which Adam? BEFORE or AFTER THE FALL? From a moral standpoint Christ was the Second Adam BEFORE the fall. BODILY-WISE, He was the second Adam AFTER the fall. Evidence?

1. Look at # 1 & 2 again. He was holy from the moment of conception. Conceived by the power of the HOLY Spirit. It can't be otherwise.

2. "Christ is called the second Adam. In purity and holiness, connected with God and beloved by God, he began where the first Adam began. Willingly he passed over the ground where Adam fell, and redeemed Adam’s failure." {YI, June 2, 1898 par. 1}

3. "Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden."

Avoid every question in relation to the humanity of Christ which is liable to be misunderstood. Truth lies close to the track of presumption. In treating upon the humanity of Christ, you need to guard strenuously every assertion, lest your words be taken to mean more than they imply, and thus you lose or dim the clear perceptions of His humanity as combined with divinity. His birth was a miracle of God; for, said the angel, “Behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

These words do not refer to any human being, except to the Son of the infinite God. Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called “that holy thing.” It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be. The exact time when humanity blended with divinity, it is not necessary for us to know. We are to keep our feet on the Rock Christ Jesus, as God revealed in humanity.

Nichol, Francis D.: The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 5. Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1978; 2002, S. 1128

In what contrast is the second Adam as He entered the gloomy wilderness to cope with Satan singlehanded! Since the Fall the race had been decreasing in size and physical strength, and sinking lower in the scale of moral worth, up to the period of Christ’s advent to the earth. And in order to elevate fallen man, Christ must reach him where he was. He took human nature, and bore the infirmities and degeneracy of the race. He, who knew no sin, became sin for us. He humiliated Himself to the lowest depths of human woe, that He might be qualified to reach man, and bring him up from the degradation in which sin had plunged him. {1SM 268.2}

White, Ellen Gould: Selected Messages From the Writings of Ellen G. White, Book 1; Selected Messages, Book 1. Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1958; 2002, S. 268

[John317]

If by "Jesus truly took on our sinful nature" you mean that He was born with an inclination or propensity to commit sin, NO, I definitely do not believe it.

Jesus didn't have an inclination or propensity to commit sin, but I believe the SOP does teach that He took our sinful nature, that is, The Son of God assumed the human nature of Adam that he had after the Fall and not the nature Adam had before the Fall.

I believe the difference between Jesus and everyone else is that He was born filled with the Holy Spirit, so He never had to be "born again" like we must. It also means that Jesus never had to resist and overcome evil habits. The "propensity" to sin, as Ellen White uses the term, comes from the practice of sin, and of course Jesus never sinned and therefore didn't have the propensity.

There are three really good, important books on this subject. One is a collection of quotes of the Bible, Ellen White, and virtually every SDA pioneer who wrote or spoke on the topic of Christ's human nature. It was published by Ralph Larson, entitled, And the Word Was Made Flesh.

A second book is called, Face to Face With the Real Gospel, by Dennis E. Priebe (Pacific Press Publishing). It was recently republished. (Priebe also has some excellent audio recordings at his web-site.)

The third book is, Why Jesus Waits, by Herbert Douglass. (Published by Upward Way Adventist Classic Series)

[Gerr]

Jesus didn't have an inclination or propensity to commit sin,

John, once you admit that He did NOT have PROPENSITY to sin, then He did not have our sinful nature in its totality. Of the sinful human nature Paul had this to say:

"I am of the flesh, sold under sin." Rom 7:14

"For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate." 7:15

"So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me." 7:17-20

"but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members." 7:23 All quotes from ESV.

When a child is born, the law of sin is already written and operative in his "members". Left to itself, that child will do sinful things even without the devils' prompting. He ALREADY has that propensity/inclination. NOT SO WITH CHRIST!I would be surprised if you thought that sin was already dwelling in Christ's "members" when He was born.

Quote:

but I believe the SOP does teach that He took our sinful nature, that is, The Son of God assumed the human nature of Adam that he had after the Fall and not the nature Adam had before the Fall.

Please look at the SOP quote I gave in the previous post. Physically, Christ took the post-fall nature of Adam, but morally, He took the pre-lapsarian nature of Adam.

Quote:

I believe the difference between Jesus and everyone else is that He was born filled with the Holy Spirit, so He never had to be "born again" like we must. It also means that Jesus never had to resist and overcome evil habits. The "propensity" to sin, as Ellen White uses the term, comes from the practice of sin, and of course Jesus never sinned and therefore didn't have the propensity.

Christ was not only born full of the Holy Spirit, but so was John the Baptist. What sets Him apart from every other human being is that He was CONCEIVED of the Holy Spirit. No human can claim that. Half of His genes (?) were of the Holy Spirit. I don't for one moment believe that EGW understood propensity to mean practised sin; she knew it meant inclination or tendency to sin.

[Gerr]

Christ commanded us to "abide in Him".

That means that we can do what He has commanded...

That is how we can walk with Him without sinning. :-)

The law of sin is written/operative/dwelling in your very flesh. Even John the Baptist who was born "filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb" sinned. Until you & I shed this sinful flesh, it's erroneous to claim one can be totally free from even unintentional sins. Freedom from deliberate sin? YES!!!

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

The Roman Church has managed to infiltrate many of its pagan doctrines into its daughters, the fallen protestant churches.

But not one pagan doctrine has gained a foothold in the only true Protestant and Apostolic Church that is left on this earth.

The Seventh Day Adventist Church.

But what is really important here, is that the pagan doctrines have been inserted into the churches through the direct activity of the Roman Catholic Church.

All except one.

And she strives to capture that one at every opportunity as well...

Twilight

________________________________

Twilight, there were those in the days of Christ who taught that the Jewish organization (they were Seventh-day Adventists) would always be exalted as the church of God. They too believed and taught that this was the only church or people who were free from pagan teachings etc etc

Yet Jesus said that they had become the slaves of sin and the representatives of Satan. (See D.A.36)

We have been told so many times that we were repeating their history to the very letter. Over the years, the Lord has sent testimony after testimony to the effect that this church was following in the track of Romanism. (See T.M.363) Another testimony said that "a blacksliding church always narrows its distance between itself and the papacy."

Would that not explain why the Lord said that as a church we had less to say about the papal power? (See T.M.112)

Let me ask you a question, Do we not in this church make a distinction between the "clergy" and the "laity" and is that not of the "clerical" spirit which is the spirit of domination, which is the papal spirit?

"The spirit of domination is extending to the presidents of our conferences." Testinomines to Ministers, p.362.

In the Review and Herald of the year 1903 officials of the General Conference published an article claiming that the system of organization adopted by the Seventh-day Adventist church was the Mosaic Order, the very order that was adopted in the second century and which led to 1260 years of papal dominance!

In the seasons of the night, the Lord gave Mrs. White a dream in which she could see the leaders of the church walking two and two toward the building she was in at Battle Creek. She was about to open the door to let them in when she decided to look again. "The scene was changed. The company now presented the appearance of a Catholic procession. One bore in his hand a cross, another a reed. And as they approached, the one carrying a reed made a circle around the house, saying three times: 'This house is proscribed! The goods must be confiscated. They have spoken against our holy order.'" See Testimonies, Vol.1, p.578.

Years later A.T. Jones was accused of having spoken against their "holy order" while he was teaching the third angel's message. So he was tried, judged, and sentenced, 4,000 miles away without him being given one single chance to be heard!

This is only one example of the "high-handed power" that had been developing in the professed church of Christ. Mrs. White said, "This high-handed power that has been developed makes me afraid and ought to cause fear." Testimonies to Ministers, p.361

Later the Lord sent a testimony saying that if this order of things was allowed to continue, their faith would soon become extinct. This "kingly power" or "high-handed power" has been allowed to continue until this our day. "The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devising of men. If you allow this to continue your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481.

That being the case, how could we ever claim to be the only church that has not succumbed to the sophistries of the enemy especially when the Lord has told us that we had put Him aside! The Lord sent a warning saying, "Organizations, institutions, unless kept by the power of God will work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men; and fraud and guile will bear the semblance of zeal for truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of God. Whatever in our practice is not as open as day belongs to the methods of the prince of evil. His methods are practiced even among Seventh-day Adventists, who claim to have advanced truth." Testimonies to Ministers, p.366.

This apostasy, we are warned, is to wax stronger and stronger until Jesus comes in the clouds of Heaven.

So let us remember that within the Jewish organization there was what the Spirit of the Lord calls a "little church" led by Christ. So it is today. God still has a "little church," faithful few who will not allow this "clerical spirit" or the "spirit of domination" to rule over them for they have the word of their Commander, "It shall not be so among you." Matt.20:25.

What say you?

sky

I would say that we apostacise, not when the leadership behaves badly, but when we adopt the doctrines of Babylon my friend. :-)

Unless it can be show to do that, the bad behaviour of chuch members does not cause the church to lose its doctrinal purity.

My friend, for the Spirit of the Lord to declare that the leaders of the church were following in the track of Romanism is not apostasy? hmmmm

For the General Conference leaders to compromise or repudiate the pillars of our faith in secret meetings in order to be recognized as a "Christian" denomiation is not apostasy? hmmmm

sky

[doug yowell]

Yeah Richard,I guess I was thinking along a different line.Given that Sunday was never a weekly holy day,I was referring to the Church's making it one. Given the origins of Sunday's "special focus"(Sun Day)I suppose one could rightly lump it in with pagan origins.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Christ commanded us to "abide in Him".

That means that we can do what He has commanded...

That is how we can walk with Him without sinning. :-)

Sinful acts that go through the will (intentional/deliberate), I believe we can stop doing by divine grace. But as long as we are in this fallen body, we'll never shed sins that bypass the will (unintentional) until we are given new bodies.

Isn't this exactly what you argued against in a previous discussion on the Rom. 7 man,applying the condemnation of guilt to the one who sinned unintentionally?

[Gerr]

No way. I have held this position for sometime.

[Twilight]

Maybe a thread on Christ's nature would be a good idea, so that this one can stay on topic?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I would say that we apostacise, not when the leadership behaves badly, but when we adopt the doctrines of Babylon my friend. :-)

Unless it can be show to do that, the bad behaviour of chuch members does not cause the church to lose its doctrinal purity.

My firend, for the Spirit of the Lord to declare that the leaders of the church were following in the track of Romanism is not apostasy? hmmmm

For the General Conference leaders to compromise or repudiate the pillars of our faith in secret meetings in order to be recognized as a "Christian" denomiation is not apostasy? hmmmm

sky

When the denomination accepts false teachings and changes its fundamentals, then they have apostacised.

But when individuals, even leaders apostacise, but do not change the fundamentals, that is not the same as the church doing it.

I think this distinction, would have helped a lot of people that decided to go "independant", because they have seen this or that leader aposticise. :-)

If they had realised, that the behaviour of a few does not remove Israel from being before Gods eyes, but that it has to be a total rejection (as in the days of Christ when Barabbas was chosen), there would not be so much dissension in the church.

Until the church changes its fundamentals, it has not "apostacised".

And claiming it has, causes much confusion amongst church members and discourages them is my fear.

[skyblue888]

"Today men are choosing Barabbas, and saying, crucify Christ. They will go over the same ground as the Jewish priests and rulers did in their treatment of Christ. He, the Son of God, and an innocent man, was murdered because He told men truths that it did not please them to hear." Testimonies to Ministers,p.131.

"The delusions of the archenemy of God and man will have great power. Those who have given their affections to any leader but Christ will find themselves under the control, body, soul, and spirit of an infatuation that is so entrancing that under its power souls turn away from hearing the truth to believe a lie. They are ensnared and taken, and by their every action, they cry, 'Release unto us Barabbas, but crucify Christ.'" Selected Messages, Vol.3, p.416.

"Humanity is hailed as God." T.M.365.

These declarations apply not only to the Sunday-keeping churches but to any church especially if that church is betraying sacred trusts.

Not only did the denomination accept false teachings, its leaders agreed to remove from Bible Readings For The Home what the other churches qualified as an "offending statement" and that statement was that "Jesus lived a sinless life in sinful flesh." It was stated by the Evangelicals that unless the leaders of this denomination immediately dealt with that statement there was no way this denomination could be recognized as a Christian church. The statement was not expounged from the book but it was rephrased and it now reads, "Jesus lived a sinless life in the flesh." The Evangelicals were very pleased with that statement.

The other fundamental doctrine that was repudiated by the leaders in those secret meetings was our teaching on the atonement which is the central pillar of the advent movement. Unless we believed and taught that the atonement was completed at the cross, the leaders of the Evangelical churches would not accept us as members of the body of Christ. The leaders re-assured them that we believed that the atonement was finished at the cross. At the end of the day the Evangelicals declared that there were no more barriers preventing them from recognizing the denomination as Christian. This meant that we would no longer be categorized among the cults.

This was the crucifixion of the messages in secret meetings just as Christ was crucified in secret meetings of the night.

All this was prophesied as found in 1 S.M.204,205. The church had been warned years before these concessions were made. In the book that was published by the denomination after these conferences, it was declared, on page 32, that we were now one with these churches, the churches that have taken sides with the first great apostate. (1 S.M.222)

And this is not apostasy!

Speaking of Christ's followers, Mrs. White wrote, "Their only fear should be lest they surrender the truth, and thus betray the trust with which God has honored them." Desire of Ages, p.356.

"We have nothing to fear for the future except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us." T.M.31.

sky

[Twilight]

I am not arguing that some "individuals" have apostacised Sky.

What I am saying, is unless those individuals have caused the doctrines of the church as expressed in the 28 fundamentals to change, then the "church" hasn't apostacised.

Do you see the difference?

Mark :-)

[Gerr]

Sinful acts that go through the will (intentional/deliberate), I believe we can stop doing by divine grace. But as long as we are in this fallen body, we'll never shed sins that bypass the will (unintentional) until we are given new bodies.

Isn't this exactly what you argued against in a previous discussion on the Rom. 7 man,applying the condemnation of guilt to the one who sinned unintentionally?

I got to thinking about what you said while I was on an errand. I may have misunderstood it. If you mean that I was arguing against absolute sinless perfection before the parousia, you are correct. I don't believe that's possible. And I don't believe Christ had our nature in EVERY particular. But if you mean I'm now arguing against a position that I previously held, no, I'm not.

[Twilight]

Take it elsewhere please folks...

That is a whole topic on its own...

Unless it is linked to the topic and I have missed the point?

[skyblue888]

I am not arguing that some "individuals" have apostacised Sky.

What I am saying, is unless those individuals have caused the doctrines of the church as expressed in the 28 fundamentals to change, then the "church" hasn't apostacised.

Do you see the difference?

Mark :-)

What I have shared had nothing to do with "individuals" per se but with the denomination itself. The warning given was that through compromising the pillars of our faith the leaders of this denomination would have our religion changed. 1 S.M.204. As to the members of this denomination, of course the leaders of this denomination have maintained the appearance that nothing has been changed but the fact that in secret meetings the pillars of our faith were repudiated in order that this denomination be recognized as Christian, is in itself the apostasy.

But this is only scratching the surface.

There is much more to be revealed.

In 1909 the Lord sent this testimony: "The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men." T.M.481.

What took place during these meetings between 1955 and 1957 was the result of rejecting the 1888 message of the righteousness of Christ by faith in His all-sufficient merits and rejecting the principles of reorganization as presented in the General Conferences until 1901, and thus maintaining the rule of men over men in the church in the place of Christ.

sky

And that would be why the Lord sent this testimony to us as another warming as to what is to take place in the very near future. "When light goes forth to lighten the earth, instead of coming up to the help of the Lord, they will want to bind about His work to meet their narrow ideas. Let me tell you that the Lord will work in this last work in a manner very much out of the common order of things and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning." T.M.300.

That says it all, does it not?

"Organizations, institutions, unless kept by the power of God wil work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men; and fraud and guile will bear the semblance of zeal for truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of God." T.M.366.

[Gerr]

Sorry, I won't add another comment.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Take it elsewhere please folks...

That is a whole topic on its own...

Unless it is linked to the topic and I have missed the point?

Isn't the human nature of Christ one of the Doctrines of Babylon that many believe has entered the SDA church?

[doug yowell]

I got to thinking about what you said while I was on an errand. I may have misunderstood it. If you mean that I was arguing against absolute sinless perfection before the parousia, you are correct. I don't believe that's possible. And I don't believe Christ had our nature in EVERY particular. But if you mean I'm now arguing against a position that I previously held, no, I'm not.

Mum's the word until I get the OK from Mark.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Take it elsewhere please folks...

That is a whole topic on its own...

Unless it is linked to the topic and I have missed the point?

Isn't the human nature of Christ one of the Doctrines of Babylon that many believe has entered the SDA church?

Yes, absolutely. This teaching was compromised when the leaders of the church were put to the test about it. As I have stated earlier in a previous post, they even went as far as changing this published statement "Jesus lived a sinless life in sinful flesh" for "Jesus lived a sinless life in the flesh" in order to please and win the approval of the other churches.

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