Illuminati...

[Gail]

Ahhh... I understand you more clearly, I think!

I don't know why people wouldn't believe that Satan would have conspiracy theories. I imagine he has a lot of tricks up his sleeve to pull us all down.

But what good would it do us to dwell on them?

[phkrause]

[John317]

I'm not attempting to discredit the book. ....PS. I did read both books.

OK. I was just asking. I didn't think you were trying to discredit .

I'm interested in what you thought of the chapters regarding the heavenly sanctuary and the last-day events? Do you have confidence in what that book says about those things?

Personally I have no doubt whatever that she was a true prophet of God.

[John317]

... even though someone disagrees with you and does make "twilight zone music" comments, they have as much right as anyone else to make such comments.

Sure. I don't think anyone's questioning their right to do that.

[LifeHiscost]

Whatever...

My sentiments exactly. Discussion on most topics of CA seem to end in the first part of the conversation, namely converse as in a theorem formed by interchanging the hypothesis and conclusion of a given theorem.

I somewhat doubt if it is the most desired of the gifts given by God for the purpose of revealing the gentle Jesus, most well loved through this identity.

"Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven."Matthew 18:3 NLT

God's Blessing!

[LifeHiscost]

Wow, I've really got some treacherous background.

"Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"Matthew 7:22-24 NKJV

Is it safe to base my future life in heaven upon some nice person who was always nice toward everyone else?

Not alluding to anyone mentioned here, as God alone reaches the depths of the heart.

"...even satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."2 Corinthians 11:14,15 NASB

God blesses!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Wow, I've really got some treacherous background.

"Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"Matthew 7:22-24 NKJV

Is it safe to base my future life in heaven upon some nice person who was always nice toward everyone else?

Not alluding to anyone mentioned here, as God alone reaches the depths of the heart.

"...even satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."2 Corinthians 11:14,15 NASB

God blesses!

YOU AREN'T ALLUDING TO ANYONE MENTIONED HERE??? I didn't just fall off the potato wagon. I know who you were referring to. And I don't like it. Just because someone is a Mason doesn't mean they worship Satan.

There were 9 founding fathers that were Freemasons. Benjamin Franklin, William Ellery, John Hancock, Joseph Hewes, William Hooper, Robert Paine, Richard Stockton, George Walton and William Whipple. George Washington was also a Freemason. Lincoln applied, but decided it would look suspiciously like he was trying to buy votes.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Were_the_founding_fathers_Masons#ixzz18SFfuTc5

In addition, these US Presidents were also Masons:

George Washington

James Monroe

Andrew Jackson

James Polk

James Buchanan

Andrew Johnson

James Garfield

William McKinley

Theodore Roosevelt

Howard Taft

Warren Harding

Franklin Roosevelt

Harry Truman

Gerald Ford

Despite my oath of silence, I'm speaking outright here. The SDA church has more to worry about within its own ranks than it does from any Masonic Lodge, Illuminati tripe, or other monkeys swinging in the trees.

Don't give me that [censored]-and-bull story that what was written and quoted here earlier didn't refer to my Grandfather. Here, let me show you his ring. Guess what? It doesn't have any magical powers. But then, he *did* eat pork. And drank alcohol to the point that he was an alcoholic. But when he was sober, he was a brilliant man...and I've said it before, and I'll say it again: nobody, not one person, was ever turned away from the door who needed something to eat. Because my grandfather always said you never knew when you were entertaining angels unawares. Boy, that really sounds like an evil person. Doesn't the Bible say something about "by their fruits you shall know them"????

**blows nose**

Carry on with the self-righteous "at-least-I'm-not-like-that" scenario. It sickens me. I'm gone. Out. Away. Unreachable.

Good bye.

[LifeHiscost]

YOU AREN'T ALLUDING TO ANYONE MENTIONED HERE??? I didn't just fall off the potato wagon. I know who you were referring to. And I don't like it. Just because someone is a Mason doesn't mean they worship Satan.

Carry on with the self-righteous "at-least-I'm-not-like-that" scenario. It sickens me. I'm gone. Out. Away. Unreachable.

Good bye.

[GFruge]

I have a story about this.

I personally own the Walter Veith set of 36 DVD's. It caught my attention and I had to buy it.

I'm not going to say that I believe everything that the man says, because a person can get caught up and be led astry. It's like people that say, "Well, Dr Veith said". Walter Veith is only a human like all of the rest of us. He's got lots of information, some of it is likely and believable and some of it seems a bit far fetched.

People are nuts if they think something bad will happen to them if they put fuel at a Shell Gas Station.

Whats absolutely amazing is how I was able to witness to someone and looked for their interests in the Christian walk. And because of the Walter Veith series, a family of 8 was baptized into the Adventist faith, because this tool was used.

I'm not saying we should believe in it, but shouldn't we be aware of it? There are bad things prophecied for the future that we clearly read in scripture. How do you think this will be achieved? Be aware, because there just might be a group of people planning things for our future.

[John317]

Praise God for the family 8 who were baptized, friend. Thank you for posting this.

[John317]

Our future life in heaven is based on acceptance of Christ...nothing more and nothing less!!!

Yes, genuine acceptance, not merely saying you accept Him. The Bible says that if we claim to know Him but do not keep His commandments, are are lying and the truth is not in us. Anyone can make a claim to accept Him, but it's another thing to do the Father's will. One of the important purposes of the Investigative Judgment is to show who has truly accepted Christ and who has merely made the claim.

[LifeHiscost]

...accept what He has already accomplished for us and stop worry about their own lives and the lives of others, leaving that in Gods hands

"And the Lord said to Cain, Where is Abel your brother? And he said, I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?"Genesis 4:9 AMP

I guess the condition of the larger extent of the human population reveals the outcome of that philosophy.

"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."James 2:14-24 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

And because of the Walter Veith series, a family of 8 was baptized into the Adventist faith, because this tool was used.

I'm not saying we should believe in it, but shouldn't we be aware of it? There are bad things prophecied for the future that we clearly read in scripture. How do you think this will be achieved? Be aware, because there just might be a group of people planning things for our future.

Praise God. I don't know many that are without spot yet. But if it is in the heart of man to do the Father's will, He will use their efforts to His Divine Glory.

God blesses!

[John317]

I reckon for some the glass is always half empty!

Our future life in heaven is based on acceptance of Christ...nothing more and nothing less!!!

If people would simply grasp hold of Christ and accept what He has already accomplished for us ....)

Here's what I'm talking about:

Quote:

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

Christ's present work in heaven, where he makes atonement for us, is just as important as his work on the cross. The atoning sacrifice was perfect, but the atonement in the heavenly sanctuary continues. We have an important part to play in that work of atonement. Seventh-day Adventist beliefs on this topic are quite different from most of Christianity.

[John317]

And isn't it true that people can be cooperating and participating in it without realizing that they are part of it?

Originally Posted By: Neil D

Ah...if you are participating without realizing they are a part of a conspiracy, then.......?

People can worship the devil without realizing it. They don't have to do it knowingly in order to be part of a conspiracy. Satan is the leader of the greatest conspiracy ever. He's leading a conspiracy against Christ. Most of the people involved in it would be shocked to realize for whom they're working.

[aldona]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

"Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"Matthew 7:22-24 NKJV

Is it safe to base my future life in heaven upon some nice person who was always nice toward everyone else?

Not alluding to anyone mentioned here, as God alone reaches the depths of the heart.

"...even satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."2 Corinthians 11:14,15 NASB

God blesses!

YOU AREN'T ALLUDING TO ANYONE MENTIONED HERE??? I didn't just fall off the potato wagon. I know who you were referring to. And I don't like it. Just because someone is a Mason doesn't mean they worship Satan.

There were 9 founding fathers that were Freemasons. Benjamin Franklin, William Ellery, John Hancock, Joseph Hewes, William Hooper, Robert Paine, Richard Stockton, George Walton and William Whipple. George Washington was also a Freemason. Lincoln applied, but decided it would look suspiciously like he was trying to buy votes.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Were_the_founding_fathers_Masons#ixzz18SFfuTc5

In addition, these US Presidents were also Masons:

George Washington

James Monroe

Andrew Jackson

James Polk

James Buchanan

Andrew Johnson

James Garfield

William McKinley

Theodore Roosevelt

Howard Taft

Warren Harding

Franklin Roosevelt

Harry Truman

Gerald Ford

Despite my oath of silence, I'm speaking outright here. The SDA church has more to worry about within its own ranks than it does from any Masonic Lodge, Illuminati tripe, or other monkeys swinging in the trees.

Don't give me that [censored]-and-bull story that what was written and quoted here earlier didn't refer to my Grandfather. Here, let me show you his ring. Guess what? It doesn't have any magical powers. But then, he *did* eat pork. And drank alcohol to the point that he was an alcoholic. But when he was sober, he was a brilliant man...and I've said it before, and I'll say it again: nobody, not one person, was ever turned away from the door who needed something to eat. Because my grandfather always said you never knew when you were entertaining angels unawares. Boy, that really sounds like an evil person. Doesn't the Bible say something about "by their fruits you shall know them"????

**blows nose**

Carry on with the self-righteous "at-least-I'm-not-like-that" scenario. It sickens me. I'm gone. Out. Away. Unreachable.

Good bye.

Pam, you haven't mentioned the most interesting and relevant prominent Freemason - it was William Miller.

For those who don't believe me, google "William Miller Freemason" and read the variety of different sources (including some Adventist) that confirm this is so.

I have asked more than once on this forum for somebody, anybody, to come forward with any evidence that Miller ever renounced Freemasonry or resigned/ otherwise ceased from his association with the Lodge.

I am still waiting.

I believe it is important because it has a bearing on how our church began, and how 1844, the theology of the investigative judgement and related issues came about.

When we point the finger at other religions/denominations as having Masonic founders or Masonic associations, there are three fingers pointing right back at us.

AJ

(off to listen to some Mozart - another Freemason)

[John317]

...Pam, you haven't mentioned the most interesting and relevant prominent Freemason - it was William Miller.

For those who don't believe me, google "William Miller Freemason" and read the variety of different sources (including some Adventist) that confirm this is so.

I have asked more than once on this forum for somebody, anybody, to come forward with any evidence that Miller ever renounced Freemasonry or resigned/ otherwise ceased from his association with the Lodge.

I am still waiting.

I believe it is important because it has a bearing on how our church began, and how 1844, the theology of the investigative judgement and related issues came about.

When we point the finger at other religions/denominations as having Masonic founders or Masonic associations, there are three fingers pointing right back at us.

It's no secret that Miller was a Mason. He had also been an agnostic. Miller did not have all the light on everything. He was deceived by the Masons just like millions of other people. The fact that he was a Mason doesn't make it right. Miller also rejected the Sabbath, the state of the dead, the Investigative Judgment, and the prophetic ministry of Ellen White.

I haven't seen any evidence that Miller continued his association with the Masons after he began to preach on the Second Coming of Christ.

How do you see Miller's being a Mason having a bearing on the theology of the Investigative Judgment?

[aldona]

Quote:

How do you see Miller's being a Mason having a bearing on the theology of the Investigative Judgment?

If Miller was still an active Mason when he was investigating 1844 and the second coming of Christ, that would be the important factor, not simply if he had been a former mason and then resigned and left it all behind.

One of the notable features of Freemasonry is that it encourages its members to read and study widely in ancient religious and texts of all different kinds of origins, and they are very big on solving mysteries, deciphering codes, adding up numbers, calculating dates, etc, and coming up with conclusions that are at odds with mainstream organized religions.

If Miller's study and research leading up to 1844 was informed by this kind of mindset, or by other aspects of Masonic thought and practice, then it certainly has a bearing on the outcome. It may also be relevant to the fact that the prophecy failed, and it may lead some who have the aim of discrediting our faith to conclude that the doctrine of the IJ and the heavenly sanctuary was a face-saving measure to explain, after the fact, why Christ did not come in 1844.

Just some thoughts. It would be wise for the SDA church to clarify these kinds of matters more, as this would disarm a large number of such critics.

By the way, have you ever read the text of Mozart's opera "The Magic Flute"? (A blatantly Masonic work if ever there was one.) It reads like "Revelation Seminar: The Musical." Beasts and priests and temples and a woman with a crown of stars with the moon under her feet...I could go on.

Gotta get back to work. Will return later.

AJ

[John317]

Some interesting thoughts there, aldona. I will have to look further into this. My father wrote the book, The Urgent Voice: the Story of William Miller, and so I've a great interest in Miller. I don't recall any evidence that Miller was still involved with the Masons after he became a Christian. But he was quite thorough in his study and research, and he was a very intelligent man.

What you say about people claiming the Investigative Judgment Doctrine to be a "face-saving device" is certainly true. I hear this repeated often. However, there doesn't seem to be any connection between this accusation and the thought that Miller was (or had been) a Mason. Of course Miller himself had nothing to do with the Investigative Judgment.

[fccool]

Miller rejected Freemasonry way before 1844...

He stated that he did so to "avoid fellowship with any practice that may be incompatible with the word of God among masons" (there are quite a few) By 1833 he wrote in a letter to treat Freemasonry "as they would any other evil".

So, I doubt you can make a great case for Mason's on behalf of Miller... Sorry.

[John317]

Thank you for that info, fccool. I am not surprised that Miller did this. He was very consistent and honest.

Do you have a reference for that? I think it's important because the question has come up before on the Forum.

[fccool]

As far as E.G. White goes, I find it quite ironic that the church picked an occult symbol to be erected where she is burred (Charles Russel is not alone I guess)

[John317]

It would be very interesting to learn how that decision was made and who decided it. I really doubt that Ellen White chose the grave marker, but even if she did, I doubt she would have been aware of the implications of that particular marker. Since I live only a short distance from the Ellen White estate in Loma Linda, I could ask here if they can help me find out this information.

When I was a teenager, I went with my parents to the cemetary and saw the White's grave. It never occurred to anyone at that time to reflect on the reason for that marker on their grave. I am not sure it's very important.

[Jeannieb43]

Anybody have a picture of EGW's grave? I've been there myself several times. I can't think of what symbol you're referring to as being an occult symbol.

[Dr. Rich]

As for EGW's association with Free Masonrey, I too wonder what it was since James too was known to be one. For more information on this issue, you can go to: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3302588/Ellen-G-White-Uses-Masonic-Words?query2=ellen

Please be careful with what you find here. By presenting this to you, I am not suggesting anything--it is up to you to do your own research.

Blessings,

Dr. Rich