Illuminati...

[John317]

Those practicing Gnosticism and Mithra believed that the flesh, or body, was the evil part of mankind and that the spirit was the good or holy part of man. It was also reported that they believed the Earth was to flesh as Heaven is to the spirit.

This was also a Pagan/Egypt or Eastern religious doctrine, in that there must be a balance of everything, including good and evil. Now we have this same thing showing up as New Age religious belief.

Sure, but where does Paul teach that the human body is evil?

Paul says plainly that the body can be good or evil depending on the mind of the person. But he didn't teach that the body itself is evil. Check out Romans 6: 13, 19. Paul shows that our bodies can be instruments of righteousness. He couldn't say this if our bodies in and of themselves were evil.

There's also that fact that Christ came in a real human body, and it was obviously not evil. Christ wouldn't have done this if the human body itself was evil. Paul agreed with 2 John 1:7

[7] For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

John said this because the proto-gnostics were saying that Christ did not come in a human body.

Romans 6:13

Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.

Romans 6:19

I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

[LifeHiscost]

If Miller's study and research leading up to 1844 was informed by this kind of mindset, or by other aspects of Masonic thought and practice, then it certainly has a bearing on the outcome. AJ

We all have a mindset at one time or another, highly disposed to sinful practices. If we use the mindset of anyone at a certain point of their life's experiences, as a criteria against receiving Jesus as the Master of our souls, or accepting Truth of any ilk, there is no justifiable reason for continuing on in the "charade" of the great commission of carrying the gospel to all the world.

"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me."John 5:38 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

As for EGW's association with Free Masonrey, I too wonder what it was since James too was known to be one. For more information on this issue, you can go to: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3302588/Ellen-G-White-Uses-Masonic-Words?query2=ellen

Please be careful with what you find here. By presenting this to you, I am not suggesting anything--it is up to you to do your own research.

Blessings,

Dr. Rich

After having read EGWhite's counsel on the evils of secret societies I cannot logically conclude any sympathies from her re:

Free Masonry. Her specific counsel as I recall was to completely disassociate from any secret society as they were all incompatible with loyalty to Jesus.

"“No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other; you will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”"Luke 16:13 NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

The link Rich posted is just some people trying to make a big deal out of her using the phrase "Holy Watcher" which perfectly fits what she is describing. That's just lame. Even for you guys.

A timorous

[LifeHiscost]

It's not her writings that are the problem. The problem is that someone is spreading lies about her and her writings, but this is to be expected. It won't happen here much longer. If you can't show better evidence than this about Ellen and James White, I'm going to delete the posts making these claims, because otherwise we are allowing the devil to use the Adventist Forum to spread his filth. We have thousands of visitors who come here to read and many of them know nothing of SDAs. I won't allow this kind of junk to be their first introduction to SDAs. That would be a downright shame. It would be better to have this entire forum shut down than to have that happen.

[LifeHiscost]

Now, many people are freaked out by "occult".

EGWhite also gave counsel that the Disciple of Christ should be transparent as glass, something not found in secret societies and becoming less and less common in the USA.

"“You are the light of the world—like a city on a hilltop that cannot be hidden."Matthew 5:14 NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

It sounds like it could have been something that Ellen White was unaware of. I mean people can make movements without knowing the significance of everthing they do. What sign was she supposed to have made?

John, I'm familiar with the quote about Ellen, and as I can best recall the hand sign given by sister White was a confirmation to the individual to whom it was given, that she was fully aware of the secret society to which the person she was talking to was involved.

Considering the context, I would suggest it was a similar behavior as Jesus carried out when the woman caught in adultery was brought before Him. Jesus wrote in the sand to reveal each individual's sins to them alone, while keeping the information hidden from those who had no need to know.

Just my personal viewpoint.

God blesses!

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: John317

It's not her writings that are the problem. The problem is that someone is spreading lies about her and her writings, but this is to be expected. It won't happen here much longer. If you can't show better evidence than this about Ellen and James White, I'm going to delete the posts making these claims, because otherwise we are allowing the devil to use the Adventist Forum to spread his filth. We have thousands of visitors who come here to read and many of them know nothing of SDAs. I won't allow this kind of junk to be their first introduction to SDAs. That would be a downright shame. It would be better to have this entire forum shut down than to have that happen.

[aldona]

Quote:

In Ellen White's case, it is a simple matter of her using about a dozen ordinary English words that happen to be used also by Masons, and then the fact that an obelisk was placed on James White's grave. Apparently that is all the "evidence" anyone has on this topic in relationship to Ellen White. It seems like pretty thin evidence to me.

Not saying anything for or against the website in question as I have not had time to read it yet...

...but if someone that Adventists are determined to view in a negative light uses one word, or makes one hand gesture, which seems wrong, there is no delay (and no shortage of accusers) as far as labelling him/her as Jesuit. Or whatever the bogey-man of the month happens to be.

If only we were as generous in giving the benefit of the doubt to all those so accused, like those on this forum are giving to E. White.

AJ

[John317]

This is from the book, Believe His Prophets, and it relates the story of Ellen White's discussions with a man named Faulkland concerning his connection with the Masons. Ellen White urged him to leave the organization and have nothing more to do with it.

The source:

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/Chapt15.html

Some Visions Directed to Secret Problems

Ellen White had many experiences dealing with people’s secret problems. In 1858 she wrote about a farm family (father, mother, and grown daughter) who had moved to Illinois from New England three years earlier. Ostensibly the reason for the move was to “introduce the work in the West. The husband went with one intention, his wife with another. His intention was to proclaim the truth, her intention was to have all their means laid out in house and lands.”

As time went on, the husband “disobeyed the call of God to gratify his wife and daughter, and was too willing to excuse or cover up his love of the world under a show of duty to his family. . . . I saw that unless she got out of her husband’s way . . . the Lord would visit the family with judgment, and move her out of the way.”

Soon disease came and the wife died. While the Whites visited the bereaved husband and father, Mrs. White had a vision of the spiritual struggle he was going through and “was astonished at what was shown me.” She was shown how the father was snared by the deceitfulness of riches and that the daughter was “wrapped up in selfishness.”

But time went on. In 1857 Ellen White had another vision regarding this Illinois family. She saw “that he was not moving fast enough, that he was not using his means to advance the cause of God as fast as he should.” Soon after that vision, she heard that this very prosperous father had died at the age of 51.

Why did Mrs. White report this private story in the church paper? She closed her article with these words: “As I have seen that the reward of covetousness thus far upon this family should be a warning to the church, I cannot withhold from the people of God what has been shown me respecting them.”73

Always the soul winner, she recognized a young watchmaker in Nimes, France, whom she had seen in vision. Once a believer, Abel Bieder had become discouraged and was, at the time, working on the Sabbath while he perfected his watchmaking trade. After meeting him at his shop, she invited him to meetings where she was to speak. She spoke privately with Abel, telling him that she knew the history of his life and his youthful errors.

“I then entreated him with tears to turn square about, to leave the service of Satan and of sin, for he had become a thorough backslider, and return like the prodigal to his Father’s house. . . . I told him that I dared not have him cross the threshold of the door until he would before God and angels and those present say, ‘I will from this day be a Christian.’”

The next day Abel resigned from his promising career, happy in the Lord. Soon Ellen White paid his fare to Basel so he could assist L. R. Conradi and James Erzberger in their evangelistic work.74

The N. D. Faulkhead experience in 1892 is a classic illustration of Ellen White’s prophetic ministry for the early Australian Adventists. When she went to Australia in 1891, Faulkhead was treasurer of the publishing house; he also held the highest positions in several secret organizations. As time went on, he became increasingly involved in his lodge work, and his church interests waned.

On the boat trip to Australia and soon after arrival, Ellen White had a comprehensive vision involving the publishing house generally and several personal testimonies, including one for the Faulkheads. When she went to mail the message, she felt strongly restrained: “When I enclosed the communication all ready to mail, it seemed that a voice spoke to me saying, ‘Not yet, not yet, they will not receive your testimony.’” She held the testimony for almost twelve months.75

During that time Faulkhead’s co-workers noticed his fading interest in his work and pleaded with him to reconsider his infatuation with the lodges. Ellen White saw in vision that he was “a man about to lose his balance and fall over a precipice.”76

One of the Australian Adventists asked Faulkhead what he would do if Mrs. White had a testimony for him in regard to his lodge affiliations. To this he responded, “It would have to be mighty strong.” That she indeed had a message for Faulkhead almost a year old, no one yet knew.77

Shortly after Faulkhead’s defiance, he had a dream that Ellen White had a message for him! In a few days, he met her and asked if she had something for him. Replying that she had, she proposed an early meeting in the future. But Faulkhead was eager: “Why not give me the message now?”

She told him that several times she had been ready to send the message but she was “forbidden by the Spirit of the Lord to do so” because the time was not ripe. But now was the time. She began to read the fifty-page manuscript, especially the portion dealing with his involvement with Freemasonry. She went on to reveal how he dropped small coins into offerings on the Sabbath but large coins into the treasury of the lodges. She heard him addressed as “Worshipful Master.”

Later, Faulkhead recalled: “I thought this was getting pretty close home when she started to talk to me in reference to what I was doing in the lodges.”78

Then it happened. After giving a certain movement of her hand, she said: “I cannot relate all that was given to me.”79

Faulkhead turned pale, recounting later: “Immediately she gave me this sign. I touched her on the shoulder and asked her if she knew what she had done. She looked up surprised and said she did not do anything unusual. I told her that she had given me the sign of a Knight Templar. Well, she did not know anything about it.”

Ellen White went on about how impossible it is to be a committed Christian and a Freemason. Then she made another secret sign, which she said “my attending angel made to me.” Faulkhead knew that this particular sign was known only to the highest order of Masons, and said later: “This convinced me that her testimony was from God. . . . Immediately the statement that I had made to Brother Stockton, that it would have to be mighty strong before I could believe that she had a message for me from the Lord, flashed through my mind.”

Faulkhead’s response to the interview was immediate. He told his co-workers the next day how God had spoken to him through Ellen White. His first work of the day was to dictate his resignation to his various lodges. But his lodge friends did not give up easily, insisting that he was honor-bound to serve out his term for the next nine months. The struggle was severe and fellow church members trembled for him.

At the end of those nine months Faulkhead wrote to God’s messenger: “How thankful I am to Him for sending me a warning that I was traveling on the wrong road. . . . I can see now very clearly that to continue with them would have been my downfall, as I must confess that my interest for the truth was growing cold.”

Faulkhead continued to serve the publishing house for many years and remained a strong spiritual leader in Australia.

[fccool]

The problem with discussing E.G. White honestly is that she literaly cad do no wrong, and painted with "Washington's Cherry Tree" type of stories. All of the inaplicable stuff is out of the context of time, and everything seemingly accidental and unexplainable is a miracle from God.

On the other hand, it could very well be that she knew those signs really well, and used it to her advantage. I know you think it's "impossible", but Tedd Haggard was slamming homosexuality too ... and quite often. And if that gay prostitute did not step forward, he'd still be the legendary leader of conservative Christianity. The point being, we don't really know... and as far as I'm concerned... it does not really matter.

[John317]

The problem with discussing E.G. White honestly is that she literaly cad do no wrong, and painted with "Washington's Cherry Tree" type of stories.

What stories would you include in that category?

But yes, she could do wrong. She was not perfect, and she would be the first to say that she needed a Savior to save her from her sins. In that way, she was like all the prophets and the apostles of the Bible.

Originally Posted By: fccool

All of the inaplicable stuff is out of the context of time, and everything seemingly accidental and unexplainable is a miracle from God.

Could you explain and give examples of what you have in mind?

Originally Posted By: fccool

On the other hand, it could very well be that she knew those signs really well, and used it to her advantage.

What do you mean it "could very well be"? What is the evidence that indicates "she knew those signs really well"?

Is this just speculation and conjecture or do you have evidence to base it on?

Originally Posted By: fccool

I know you think it's "impossible", but Tedd Haggard was slamming homosexuality too ... and quite often. And if that gay prostitute did not step forward, he'd still be the legendary leader of conservative Christianity.

There's no reason to think that Ellen White is like Tedd Haggard. Shoulddn't we have evidence and reason for saying these kinds of things about people?

If we are going to say that maybe she was like Ted Haggard, we might as well say that everyone could be like Ted Haggard, so let's not trust anyone. Let's just assume that everyone is a liar and not trust what anyone says. What's the need of evidence? Let's just say that it's possible that everyone could be lying and therefore we can't trust any of the Bible writers or prophets or anyone else.

Originally Posted By: fccool

The point being, we don't really know... and as far as I'm concerned... it does not really matter.

It certainly would matter if we knew that Ellen White was a false prophet or that she was lying when she said and wrote the things she did.

Whether anyone is lying or telling the truth always matters, and especially so in the case of a leader in the church.

[LifeHiscost]

If only we were as generous in giving the benefit of the doubt to all those so accused, like those on this forum are giving to E. White.

AJ

Point well taken, and it even goes so far as to how much God is justifiably willing to put up with re:falsehood, especially since many of His loved children will lose their way to the kingdom as a result of the influence of lies and accusations based on efforts to justify one's self from Biblical incrimination.

I think a good answer is found in this principle, often overlooked by the one's who need it most:

"Confess to one another therefore your faults (your slips, your false steps, your offenses, your sins) and pray [also] for one another, that you may be healed and restored [to a spiritual tone of mind and heart]. The earnest (heartfelt, continued) prayer of a righteous man makes tremendous power available [dynamic in its working]."

James 5:16 AMP

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Faulkhead continued to serve the publishing house for many years and remained a strong spiritual leader in Australia.

Interesting to note how, when the Spirit convicts a person, the enemy of souls uses people to delay the decision, giving time for the devil to regroup and try another tact, making the promise to the devil seem justifiably reasonable to carry out, much like Herod when he felt "honor" bound to deliver the head of John the Baptist on a platter, rather than show his guests he had made a mistake in judgment.

God blesses!

[fccool]

Quote:

What do you mean it "could very well be"? What is the evidence that indicates "she knew those signs really well"? Is this just speculation and conjecture or do you have evidence to base it on?

My point is that absence of proof is not a proof of absence. If Haggard remained undiscovered, then he would have been "holy" in people's eyes and there would be no evidence to convict him. We don't know what goes on in people's heads. We don't always know their true motives and reasons.

Quote:

If we are going to say that maybe she was like Ted Haggard, we might as well say that everyone could be like Ted Haggard, so let's not trust anyone. Let's just assume that everyone is a liar and not trust what anyone says. What's the need of evidence? Let's just say that it's possible that everyone could be lying and therefore we can't trust any of the Bible writers or prophets or anyone else.

Based on your understanding of human nature (to be corrupted to the core from birth)... it's not difficult to assume so about people after all. If it's not true, then perhaps you should rethink your view of human nature.

I live by the old adage, trust... but check. While I certainly have no reason or means to disbelieve E.G.White... I certainly don't have any reasons or means to know for sure. I'll be honest and say that I don't know. She provides much of the advice I appreciate, and some of the things I find questionable... and plainly borrowed from other writers with "I was shown" attached to it. Perhaps, God was showing her through work of other writers... certainly nothing wrong with that.

As far as those instances that you are talking about:

1) Elen Miraculously lifted up heavy Bible with one hand and pointed with other finger (perhaps she was not as weak as people thought she was?). That's legendary.

2) The fact that she did not have education and wrote those books is attributed as "miracle"... the same "miracle" that uneducated Mohhamed is attributed to for writing the Quoran.

3) Many instances where certain things were revealed to her by God, and may very well be relayed to her earlier by people... I.E. "God showed me that Gentleman by such and such name is refusing the post of a deacon, and he should"... or "I really had no idea what these Masonic signs meant... it's of God!".

There's reason and room to doubt for me, because I've seen it done too many times. It's much harder to do in our day and age where people doubt much more and trust less... and where information spreads instantly.

All you can do is trust. If you trust all of her writings, good for you. I don't.

[fccool]

Quote:

Interesting to note how, when the Spirit convicts a person, the enemy of souls uses people to delay the decision, giving time for the devil to regroup and try another tact, making the promise to the devil seem justifiably reasonable to carry out, much like Herod when he felt "honor" bound to deliver the head of John the Baptist on a platter, rather than show his guests he had made a mistake in judgment.

God blesses!

And how exactly does he do it? Can you explain me the mechanics of such manipulation?