The mystery of selfish love

[Sonny]

You say that we were created in God's image....Please notice the past tense. Adam and Eve had agape for each other, until the fall. After iniquity replaced agape Adam and Eve blamed the other for his/her sin. Instead of taking the blame for their own failure they begin to blame each other. This is the essence of self-love - agape bent back to self.

[Sonny]

So you think that religion simply channels the good that's already present in people? The Bible fully rejects this notion. Both Jesus & Paul stated that there's none good - not even one person.

[fccool]

( Hmm... let me try to argue it your way.... )

No it does not. You simply misunderstand what Jesus said, because He and Paul only refer to a specific examples of human beings. You have to have superior wisdom to understand what Jesus meant in such context.

It's hard to argue with appeals to authority or mystical understanding. So far you've refused to provide any reason, any examples of your unselfish deeds in Christ being any different than those of "selfish people" without Christ... and it seems that you dodge your own "bring spotlight test" that you've offered to avoid giving me some examples.

[Sonny]

Without Christ people, due to their egocentric, self-loving natures, always tend to present their righteousness, which is self-righteousness.

[fccool]

That's what egotistic and selfish person would say, right? Or is it something that egotistic person would not say?

[Sonny]

Either we are righteous before God are we are not. Which is it?

[cardw]

I think the problem is that we are not righteous before Sonny.

[Sonny]

I take it you can't be serious about a serious subject? Have it your way.

[cardw]

It's hard to take you seriously when you simply keep repeating the same thing over and over. There is no attempt on your part to be open and honest. You dodge answering direct questions. You make no attempt to provide a rational defense for the obvious holes in your position.

When you want to have an adult conversation I will take that seriously. But as long as you are playing this cat and mouse game I'm not going to take it any more seriously than a game.

[Sonny]

Do you accept the Bible's view of mankind's bent to himself? I'll Paraphrase a few verses:

If I give away all that I possess, but my motive isn't from agape - my deed means nothing. (compare to 1 Cor 13:3)

In the business world we lend to those and expect repayment. So what, even sinners lend to sinners, to get full repayment back. Instead agape your enemies. How? Lend to them without expecting anything back! (compare to Luke 6:34,35)

All humans are self-centered. Everyone's deeds are useless. There's not a single person who does anything genuinely good. (compare to Romans 3:12)

From birth I was born self-centered - bent to my desires from the moment I was conceived. (compare to Ps 51:5)

You can't do anything genuinely good without Me (Christ). (Compare to John 15:5)

[Tom Wetmore]

To all,

I have deleted a series of off-topic nitpicking posts that needlesly rehashed a previous unnecessary off-topic bit that was suffiently addressed already. No need to keep beating a dead horse.

Please stick to the topic. And if you cannot add anything new and on topic, no need to post the same things over again. We heard you the first time. We are not going to agree with you more or understand you better just because you say the same thing over again.

Let's dig deep into our brains for some new thoughts...

Tom

Moderator

[cardw]

Sonny,

You can keep quoting the Bible all you want. You have stated over and over that YOUR interpretation of the Bible states that everyone is self-centered.

You have not spent anytime observing whether or not this is true either within yourself or others by your own lack of willingness to report. fccool and myself have presented a number of problems with this conclusion including the logical impossibility of you having any valid point of view when you hold this belief because the rule applies equally to yourself. All your views become the product of self-centeredness and therefore suspect to being polluted by your own self-centered motivations.

And you seem to be unaware of your own motivations or even willing to explore them, so this appears to be a fear of discovery and further pollutes your views. It looks like you have a lot to hide.

According to you the Christian desire for salvation would be self-centered and therefore evil. So Christianity would be an evil path because one desires salvation for themselves.

I live in a world of cause and effect. What I have observed is that if you want an acute case of depression simply live a life centered on oneself.

If you want to live a life of joy start learning to empathize and reach out to others. Learn how to skillfully love and be loved. You will gain a sense of being connected and feel a deep sense of meaning.

Now for me, Christianity taught me to keep score and continually focus on myself and my sinfulness. When you stop keeping score then there is no reason to seek any kind of recognition because there is no game to win.

Humbleness, honesty, and other virtues stop being virtues because no one is counting. They become tools for a joyful and full life experience.

Christianity as it is taught continually focuses people's attention on themselves. Obviously not all Christians do this, but central to this focus on self is the continual condemnation of everyone's sinful nature.

That is the major failure of your interpretation of Christianity. It actually keeps the focus on oneself.

[Sonny]

God's law is a tool to prove to me that I am a sinner in need of a Savior. The law was never given as a means of salvation. Such teachings are a perversion.

I know that I'm a sinner - I know that I'm not living Christ's life, so I have accepted His righteousness. As I remain with Him by faith He begins to change the direction of mindset - my character. Without Him all I can do it to produce sin. The same is true of you.

[fccool]

So, without him you can't recognize when a person needs something and give it simply out of empathy ... expecting nothing back?

[cardw]

I said nothing about god's law, which is keeping score, which makes my point that Christianity is self centered.

I said nothing about salvation other than saving oneself from depression.

Let me ask you this...

Do you still sin?

And if you do then you are living your life without Him.

And if you are living without Him then everything you do is sin including the messages you are typing.

So this conversation is pointless and it probably is pointless for a number of other reasons.

[Sonny]

All I can tell you is that without Christ all we do is for egocentric reasons. If you say "no" - well, God can read your motives. There's no fooling him. Me, yes, Him, no!

[Sonny]

Do I still sin? Of course.

No, I'm still with Him when I sin. In fact when I sin I'm depending on my own will power to defeat the principle of self in me or God hasn't revealed to me the sin I'm committing. His presence is still in my inner mind. The thing is agape, God, doesn't force Himself on me. Understand?

[cardw]

Well if you are still sinning, then what's the point?

That's one of the main reasons I'm no longer a Christian. It doesn't work.

[Gail]

I understand what you are saying, Rich. Your experience is a reality for many of those who have taken on the name of Christ.

The good news is that what is struggle for many has more to do with surrender and faith. The struggle is evident that there are two natures trying for the mastery. But the key is that Christ already won the battle. If there is any struggle at all it will be the surrender of self.

Ask anyone who has received victory over some torturous habit what God has done. Not only on the cross but has done FOR HIM.

You can ask me, for I just experienced this in a big way again recently in a specific way. What joy is there for anyone who has been given this gift!

We believers are all both sanctified and being sanctified. But it does come by faith and you perhaps are not there. But I can personally attest that it really is real.

I invite you to a personal chat (PM). You know that I have respected you here always. I would be happy to :)

[Sonny]

Let's see...you aren't Christian because you tried to be good and God failed you. Is that your point?

1] God cannot help you grow if you are depending on that growth to save you. Why? Because you already have salvation by faith because of what Christ did some 2000 years ago.

2] Once you understand this and understand the love of God then you are ready to experience genuine agape, which is by faith too. This is what the Bible refers to as sanctification.

3] If you think that you are producing true love without God you are only fooling yourself. Without God all you do is polluted with selfishness - what the Bible calls iniquity.

[cardw]

When I say that Christianity doesn't work isn't about being saved or being good.

Christianity didn't deliver what it promises. I want to feel joyful and happy with my life. All I experienced while being a Christians was fear and self loathing.

I did all the humbling things I thought I was supposed to do and that included seeing myself as sinful and full of selfishness. I gave my heart and soul to god and submitted to that which I was supposed to obey. I confessed my sins every day and prayed for god's wisdom and guidance. I waited for the sanctification to begin. I had faith in spades. I jumped in with both feet.

I served other people and put them first because I thought that was what I was supposed to do. I read the Bible and studied and immersed myself in god's wisdom. I just felt miserable and hated myself.

It doesn't work period. As soon as I stopped reading the Bible and Ellen White and began to get some real help I felt 1000 percent better.

If you are still sinning then it isn't working for you either. The whole point of stopping sinning is to create a better life now, not to be saved.

Why would I want to go back to something that created misery, fear, and shame?

If you want to be free then you have to commit to a rigorously honest approach to truth that is based on results. No results, no truth.

Sonny, your standard of honesty is not high enough. Your belief has no appeal to me what so ever because of that. You avoid the hard questions and that is evidence to me of a lack of candor. I will never listen to anyone who is not open and honest.

[cardw]

Gail,

You do treat me with respect and you have a great heart.

I believe you when you say that you have joy in your life and are experiencing success. And I believe that you believe that it is God who is doing this in your life. I don't object to the idea of some higher power or being influencing and teaching us.

I just don't believe that if there is that it's the god of the Bible or involves a tortuous sacrifice to achieve it.

I am very practical and my understanding of truth is results based. I had an epiphany around religion and realized that religion was cutting the heart out of my life experience. It was much like the Aztec sacrifice where the priest cuts out the heart of the victim. I realized that as the victim I had to cut the heart out of the priest.

When I did that my life felt much lighter. Most religions cut the heart out of life through fear and shame. They do this because they get people to believe lies and create self inflicted prisons that are illusions.

I have observed that communities that love each other create happy people not Christianity. I am still willing to accept the concepts that Christianity teaches that provide good results, but Christianity doesn't have an exclusive on living a full and joy filled life.

[Sonny]

If all you experienced was fear and self loathing then your experience was part of a cult and/or legalism. To live under law is to live under fear.

You state that you did all the humbling things you thought you where suppose to do. Why the preoccupation with works? Didn't Christianity teach you that only God, through you, can actually do humble acts? I think you placed the cart before the horse.

Selfless works (humbleness) comes after you have a firm grasp on

1) God's agape love for you and

2) justification by faith.

If you don't understand the love of God then your whole experience will be terrible - you'll live in fear.

[cardw]

Sonny,

So you are saying that my experience was due to a lack of understanding? Well I'm not sure how much more studying I needed to do to get an understanding. I'm not sure how much praying I need to do to get an understanding.

What I'm telling you is that I did everything that Ellen White and the Bible said to do to get an understanding and I was still miserable and fearful.

What I'm hearing from you is that if I do anything then I'm trying to be saved by works.

Maybe that's why I'm so happy now. I stopped trying to be a Christian. There is no works in that since I'm not even trying to be saved.

So to be saved without relying on works one could simply stop being a Christian.

I can agree with that plan.

[Sonny]

You must rest in Christ's finished work. When you do you'll begin to see a change first in the way you think. This will eventually lead to the way you act....