The mystery of selfish love

[Sonny]

No - I'm dead on the money. Until I gave up on the idea of doing to get (i.e., good deeds for a reward) and accepted Christ as my ticket to heaven all my "good deeds" were polluted with self-interest. My faith was in my goodness, not Christ.

Works based religion is the number one contributor to atheism.

[Bravus]

But cardw has no religion, and is doing good deeds because they are good, not in order to gain a reward. That is why I said you have missed the point.

[Sonny]

1] Good deeds without Christ is an oxymoron.

2] Everyone who rejects Christ worships self. He is depending on his efforts to make a better world. His faith is in what he does....

[Stan]

having no culture is a culture

having no religion is a religion

[Sonny]

Agreed - having no religion is a religion, i.e. to say your faith is in something.

[Bravus]

Sonny, you have stated your position loudly and forcefully at least 100 times in this thread.

The point is, for some of us that framework simply does not make any sense at all.

You have consistently failed to show evidence that you understand that there even *exist* other ways of looking at the world.

No-one is asking you to abandon your beliefs, but if this is to be a conversation rather than a loosely interleaved collection of misunderstandings, more is required of you.

[Bravus]

Stan, instead of 'no religion' I could have said 'no god in need of propitiation', I suppose.

The point is that Sonny claimed cardw does good deeds in hope of reward, where cardw has been extremely clear that he does good deeds because they have tangible good effects in the world.

[Sonny]

"Sonny" has consistently stated ("loudly") that everything done outside God is done for egocentric reasons/motives.

The problem of our world is not unrighteousness. The root problem is living our lives without God. God is the source of agape. Humans can't manufacture it...they can't produce it. All humans can produce is the self-love. If our selfish love is so great please explain why we have all the trouble in our world ending in death! Yes?

[Bravus]

If our 'selfish love' is so bad, please explain all the kindness, self-sacrifice and altruism of people who are not Christian believers all throughout the world.

You can't deny that it happens. You claim it means nothing to God, but it means much to people and makes the world a better place, and your scheme completely fails to explain it.

[Sonny]

There are two types of people experiencing agape:

1] Those who through the Bible have come to know Christ and are resting in His love and

2] Those who do not know of Christ, yet through what is created have accepted "the unknown God".

Those who have rejected their need of God are not experiencing agape. They are experiencing the love of self. All works of iniquity (works done for self-interests) are an abomination to God. See Matt chapter 23 & Matt 7:21-23. So I must disagree that God accepts these so called good deeds.

The Pharisees did many wonderfully works, but all they did (says Jesus) were to be seen of man. They loved the attention...they loved the praise...they loved the best seats in the house. Everything they did was centered in their love of self.

In Matt 5:20 (and I'll paraphrase) Jesus tells the crowds that unless their experience was greater then that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law they would certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Why? If you haven't experienced the new birth (a change of mind) then you have never accepted Christ.

If we were permitted to take our unconverted hearts to heaven, heaven would begin to look like this world! Hence, where you have the principle of self you have sin!!!!

[Sonny]

So, secular humanism works? Away with God....

[Stan]

In a weekend seminar I give, I talk about being friends with people, without them giving any obligation of joining your faith community. That we need to do things, not for manipulation, but because they are fellow citizens.

Christianity has gone wild, and has dropped any respect for other peoples journey. Even though it is clear, that a praying person to a living God, is not ignored even if they have never heard the name Jesus.

I understand his faith and search. Never give up.

We need to walk together and share experiences.

The struggle I had that was the largest, in joining the adventist faith, was the lack of respect of other peoples experiences.

I struggle with EGW, until I read the book Counsels to Writers and Editors, where I saw clear, how she want Christ to be portrayed.

IMHO More people are seeking for his will and purpose for them, then they are for forgiveness.

I am an Adventist and I support all 28 fundamental beliefs

[cardw]

Sonny,

I keep telling you that I'm not seeking salvation.

So doing works or not doing works makes no difference to me in terms of salvation.

Now you just gave me a laundry list of requirements, all of which I have accepted at one time in my life. It made no difference. What it did do was leave me in misery.

And you apparently can't tell me that it works for you because you avoid answering the question, "How do YOU know that the spirit of christ is within you?" You answer with the requirement which is no answer at all.

I want to know if it works for YOU and how do you know specifically for YOU. How do YOU know that your mind is in harmony with God's agape love?

I'm not interested in a rehash of the theory. I know all that in great detail. And as far as I can tell that theory leaves a person in perpetual self loathing.

[cardw]

Secular Humanism has produced improvements in the quality of life for people on this planet.

Democracy comes from a Secular Humanistic perspective because it holds certain truths as self evident, not god evident.

Many of our founding fathers were Deists who rejected the god of the Bible as being too immature and felt that the Bible promoted ideas that enslaved people's minds.

Abraham Lincoln had many of the same ideas.

I have observed that philosophies that value human beings treat people well.

Philosophies that value ideas over humans enslave people.

Your version of Christianity hates people and values ideas over people.

[fccool]

I think more often I see Christian preaching what they don't really understand and can't explain outside of the church-speak... than creating positive impact on this world. Now, to avoid generalization... I'll give such christians different label.

I sort of call this brand of Christianity to be Biblianity. It does not really concerns itself with the essence of faith, which is the essentially the embodiment of good that Christ was (or perhaps portrayed).

Biblianity only seeks to turn people into carbon-copies of itself. It seeks heaven in such terms likewise, and hell for everyone else. And the God of Biblianity is a judgemental one... but perhaps it is only a mental projection of its followers.

For me, true Christian is true Christian... a person that embodies the essence of Christ. These people made me a better person. These people make me believe in something better... even though there is no direct evidence of God.

People who go around preaching and calling other selfish... generally don't improve much in this world, and ironically end up being nothing like Christ.

[Sonny]

"How do I know"? Because He promised that if I believe I will have, 1] Peace with God. 2] I will experience agape. And 3] that because of what Christ did 2000 years ago I can have the assurance of heaven. All these I have and I'm experiencing. The neat thing is a new life free from sin & death. That's the promise. If I practice unbelief I will give up the resurrection. No thanks!

[Sonny]

You say that Secular Humanism has produced improvements in the quality of life for people on this planet.

Okay, but has it solved man's selfishness? Has it stopped wars? Murder? Adultery? Has it stopped death and a host of immoral acts...? No! The better mankind does, as far as his quality of life, the more he indulges his love of self. The love of self - iniquity - always produces blood-shed sooner or later.

[Mark Aurelius]

Some people accuse Christians of having the selfish motive of being kind to win God's favour. But we could no more bribe a billionaire with 50c. What God requires of us is a change of attitude.

And if the attitude has changed, then so has the underlying motive. It's just that it's not easy to change attitudes and motives. It's sort of catch-22. That's partly the reason Christ's death is so important - thinking about it puts our own petty desires into perspective.

[Sonny]

You said what God requires of us is a change of attitude. I would have to disagree. We have nothing to offer God. What He requires is faith toward Him - belief in Him.

[Mark Aurelius]

No, in Gen 2:17 God is pronouncing a death decree, not making a prediction. The phrase used in the Hebrew - infinitive absolute with the verb <mwth> to die - is consistently used in the OT of royal or divine pronouncements of death decrees, i.e. legislation. The serpent is saying that God will not take sin all that seriously, that He doesn't mean what he says.

But He did. The lamb slain from the foundation of the world was the symbolic death, the skins that God clothed Adam and Eve with were thus probably sheep skins. God came down very disappointed and set up a new form of stability, one without His regular direct intervention.

The point of this is that reality is fragile. We need God's guidance to handle it. God is trying to lessen the impact of our rejection of Him, but it still is terrible. Look at the record of human history, the inclination of people to abuse power, to allow or cause others to suffer. And also just the natural results, the disease and suffering. It wasn't meant to be this way, but we have to go through it to know for ourselves that our free will has to be subject to God's few and relatively simple rules.

If we were smart enough to work out the rules ourselves, life would probably be much less engaging. But it seems that God has pitched our intelligence at a level where we can enjoy life to the full, with its frustrations and triumphs.

Woman are treated as second class citizens in many cultures. It's in Christian-informed cultures that women have gained equal rights most emphatically. Sex is powerful force that most cultures mishandle in some way. Free-love doesn't lead to a better society - I think you'll find the number of people hurt by that is less than the number of people hurt by a more restrictive view.

And pain and hard work are consequences of our separation from God. Work itself is not a punishment in itself. Adam was to work in the garden in Genesis 2.

[Mark Aurelius]

But faith, trust, belief in God is exactly a change in attitude.

[cardw]

I have no need for peace with god since I can't be at war with a god I know nothing about.

And what do you mean by experiencing agape?

Assurance of heaven seems such a self-centered value.

In addition, finding happiness in something that you are going to get is also self-centered. How is that a manifestation of agape?

The very things you say is evidence of agape contradict agape.

Instead of focusing on others and your relationship to them you have set up the self centered standard of making sure you keep believing.

That is why your belief eventually hates people, because if you have to choose between your belief and loving others you will choose belief.

[cardw]

Sonny,

You ask what secular humanism has done and then suggest standards that Christianity has miserably failed to meet.

Has Christianity stopped wars? No it has started wars.

Has Christianity stopped murder? No it has murdered in Jesus name.

Has Christianity stopped adultery? No it has a higher rate of divorce than non-believers.

Has Christianity stopped death? No Christians still die.

You say that love of self always produces blood shed sooner or later. I say that every Christian nation has shed a lot of blood.

The evidence condemns Christianity based on it's own standards.

I would say that secularism has produced the greatest amount of freedom for the most people ever in the known history of the earth.

It is not perfect, but it offers a far better life than living under Christian nations.

[cardw]

Mark,

You misrepresent the force behind equality for women. Christianity has resisted and continues to resist equality for women. It doesn't matter if other cultures or religions do as well.

Equality for women has been led by a secular value system period. Christianity is a johnny come lately. It seems to come along and want to rewrite history to cover its shame.

And to its shame, in this country, some of the most powerful voices for equality for women came from the lesbian and atheist community. This is because you have to rewrite the Bible to allow for women in leadership.

When I grew up the icon for women's equality was Gloria Steinem. This woman brilliantly and courageously made women's rights a national conversation.

[Mark Aurelius]

Actually, I didn't say that Christianity was the force behind women's lib. But it was Christianity that put the whole concept of major moral reform on the agenda, a good century earlier. And it was in a well-functioning democratic system that it was able to get ahead, informed by the unusual idea that all people are equal, which is basic Christian teaching.

The reason for mentioning the other cultures where women are maltreated is to say that it is not some Christian distinctive that causes it.

I grew up in New Zealand where the anti-male feminism was particularly strong. It became as clear as day after a while that it was not a cause committed to equality, just the advancement of women per se. I would like to think that Christianity would progress more slowly perhaps but more evenly.