The mystery of selfish love

[cardw]

I don't know what you mean by rest in Christ's finished work. I don't even know how to begin to even determine if I'm doing that or not. You use all these cliches as if they really mean something.

So what if the way I'm acting is already changing for the better without resting in Christ's finished work? What if it is working better than when I thought I was resting in Christ's finished work?

I studied for many years to actually find out what these cliches mean and if there was any way to determine if they were working. Maybe you have some insight that I couldn't find, but so far all you have given me is cliches. That's all I could find when I studied, so it doesn't appear that you are any farther along than what I could get.

So far you have admitted that you continue to sin and that your thoughts are of self all the time and that anything you do is polluted with self. That isn't exactly a resounding endorsement of Christianity.

To me it sounds like it doesn't work.

I would rather invest my energy into something that does work.

[Sonny]

The Bible teaches that no man is living Christ's life. All men fall short of God's agape as seen in the life of Christ. At the same time those who have their assurance and faith in Christ experience agape. This depends on their degree of surrender.

I never said that my thoughts are of self all the time. I have always maintained that if Christ is in control of my nature I will experience agape and therefore I, through Christ, can do the right thing for the right motive.

Without Christ - without faith in Him, everything humanity produces is polluted with self.

[cardw]

There is that IF again. You said IF Christ in in control of your nature.

So is Christ in control of your nature or not?

Do you actually know?

Has Christ been in control of your nature while you have been posting?

You have added a new element called the degree of surrender.

It is my understanding that either you are surrendered or not. Any degree of resistance removes surrender by definition. If you have degrees of surrender then at what degree of surrender are you saved. 50%, 75%, 100%? And how would you determine if you are surrendered or not?

Since your eternal salvation depends on this I would think it would be very important to know. What I have observed is that keeping a degree of uncertainty keeps people in fear and makes them far easier to control.

Now you said that everyone, including yourself, is filled with selfishness. I take that to mean that anything you say is filled with selfishness.

And since you are unable to state that you have Christ dwelling in you and since everything humanity does is polluted with self otherwise, I have to assume that everything you post is polluted with self.

Avoiding tough questions without an honest answer is a form of deception. So I have to assume that since you are practicing a form of bearing false witness that Christ isn't dwelling in you according to the Biblical standard.

So based on your own standards of truth anything you say is polluted with self.

So far you haven't been able to reconcile that. In fact you stated that you wouldn't even be aware of whether or not you were practicing agape. That sounds like I don't know to me. And that would be an agnostic position.

Hence you are agnostic.

[Sonny]

1] Do you deny that you have a nature that is self-centered?

2] Do you believe that you, with your own mind, can defeat these selfish desires?

[cardw]

Sonny,

I can be self-centered, but it makes me miserable and depressed.

I haven't been able to over come self-centeredness with my mind because self-centeredness doesn't generally respond to reason.

I have been able to over come self-centeredness with my heart and the willingness to love and be loved.

I have had some incredibly talented mentors that reached out to me and shared how loving myself and others is the path away from self-centeredness and the misery it brings.

That has worked resoundingly well for me and I am much happier for it. It has made it possible for me to enjoy serving others and finding joy in the success of others.

I tend to follow things that provide results.

So far your method doesn't seem to provide results by your own report.

I find that Christianity tends to deal with being "right" and that is trying to use the mind. It has very little teaching on the practical nature of loving. It tells us to love, but doesn't offer much insight into how to love.

You end up with a bunch of theological mental gymnastics that ultimately promotes self-centeredness because it continually draws our attention to our own sinfulness. And that is more about fear.

[Sonny]

You say that you've been able to overcome self-centeredness with your heart, but my Bible tells me that the heart (mind - the seat of emotions) outside Christ is desperately wicked! Again, all the so called good that you can produce is polluted with selfishness.

In the days of Christ many of the Jews rejected this view. They viewed themselves as righteous. That is why Jesus stated that He didn't come to save the righteous (i.e., the self-righteous), but sinners.

[cardw]

Sonny,

You can say the Bible states that our heart is desperately wicked all you want. I don't observe that to be true with myself or others. I find quite the opposite.

I am not declaring myself righteous because I have no need for that declaration. I'm not trying to be saved.

I freely admit that I make mistakes. I have no illusions of perfection or righteousness. Both of those are meaningless to me.

All you have to offer is condemnation and fear. I have never found either of those to work.

No results, no truth.

Bible claims, no results, no truth.

Bible claims, no evidence, no truth.

There is absolutely nothing attractive about your world view to me because it offers no solution to real life problems. It simply serves to condemn, create fear, and discourage. I know those don't work.

[Sonny]

What you need to fear is not having God in your life. God loves you more than Himself. However, because He is a God of love He cannot force you - the choice is yours: Life & immortality or death with no hope of a resurrection. Again, don't fear God, fear not having Him in your life. Give Him permission...He can't force.

Jesus would rather die eternally so that you could have heaven in His place. Why reject this love....?

[cardw]

Well Jesus hasn't talked to me or revealed his presence so there is nothing that I can identify to fear.

How do I know he is in my life?

You certainly haven't been even willing to say that you know if he is in your life or not.

You keep stating it as IF he was in your life.

To me that means that you don't know.

Since that is the case I have little confidence that I can do any better with this imaginary Jesus.

[Sonny]

Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, is in my humanity - specifically - in my inner mind (my spirit). You must allow Him entrance. He can't force - it is against His nature. He lives to serve...he lives for you.

[cardw]

I'm still open to the idea of having Christ's spirit in my heart. So I have no resistance to that process. I spent a number of years asking for Jesus to be in my heart.

I couldn't tell any difference.

That's why I keep asking you how you know. And you simply continue to preach. That doesn't answer anything or present any evidence. It simply reaffirms my experience that no one really knows or has evidence that it makes a difference beyond simply changing one's mind.

So this idea that Jesus doesn't force himself on anyone doesn't really address any points that we are talking about.

[Sonny]

How do I know? The way I think - my mindset - it has taken a 180 u-turn.

Now my nature hasn't changed; it remains 100% antagonistic towards my mind.

[cardw]

My mind and my heart have done a 180 u turn once I left religion. My nature shifted.

I am far more empathetic and willing to support others outside of religion than I ever was within. And I don't even have to try. I really enjoy helping others succeed and find meaning in their lives. I don't care if that makes me a good person or not. I have awakened to the joy of being in loving community with other people.

To me that is why I will never go back to religion.

I would far rather operate from inspiration than obligation.

As far as I can tell you only speak from the theoretical because you say that only your thinking changed. I am more interested in results not theory.

[Sonny]

I'll buy you had a bad religious experience...a lot of people do, but I can guarantee you that your human love is egocentric. Without God all you can do is somehow bent back to yourself. You call it a loving community and Jesus states that without Him in your life you can't do anything genuinely good. Either Jesus is right and therefore you are self-deceived or you are right and Jesus is a phony.

[cardw]

It doesn't really matter to me if my love is egocentric or not.

I don't really care if my actions are rated good or not.

That's not the point.

No results, no truth.

[Sonny]

All the results you can produce are an illusion without Christ. Again, either Christ is correct or He is a phony.

[cardw]

Then I guess he's a phony.

[Sonny]

So you aren't really sure?

[cardw]

That's why I'm agnostic.

[Sonny]

You are an agnostic because you are not sure if Christ is a phony are not? Does this infer that if you where an atheist you would be sure?

[cardw]

Agnostic means that I am open to the idea that there is a Christ like spirit of love, but that I have no direct knowledge of such a spirit.

So at this point I don't know.

Atheist obviously means no god or gods period.

Now one might be a selective atheist. For example I assume you are an atheist when it comes to the Greek gods.

[Sonny]

Okay....Fair enough.

Now, why do you visit CA?

1] Are you hoping to learn of this "spirit of love" here at CA?

2] or are you here in an effort to win Christians over to your belief system/point of view?

By these questions I'm not inferring that you don't have a right to be here.

[cardw]

Why I come here has been explained a number of times. You can do a search and find multiple instances of my reply to this question.

The answer is irrelevant to the topic.

I would rather, in the interest of truth, have you provide some evidence that the spirit of Christ in you has any results.

So far you have stated that you don't know when and if the spirit of Christ works within you.

All you say you have is faith.

What I have told you is that I had faith that this spirit would somehow change my life and nothing happened. As far as I can determine it is rather questionable even among Christians that this actually happens.

I actually can point to methods of change that do work and they don't require a faith in Christ. I know these work because I experience them.

I'm interested in quality of life and methods of increasing happiness for as many people as possible.

Apparently Christianity doesn't do that. It only offers a future reward.

That is why I follow the principle of no results, no truth.

So far you can't provide results or methods. All you offer is belief.

Belief by itself provides nothing.

[Sonny]

From what I've read you sound like your faith was works based. Many, many believers fall into this trap. Works based faith isn't faith in Christ - it's based in producing good deeds so one can go to heaven. This is salvation by works. The reason one never experiences agape in a works based faith is because God will not assist error. His way is laid out in the following:

1] You must realize your condition.

That is why Jesus gave the law, especially the spirit of the law. He never gave it so you could earn a reward - eternal life.

2] When you realize that everything you've done, even the so called good deeds, are polluted with self-interests then you are ready to accept Christ as your righteousness. At that point you are ready to be removed from under the law.

3] Justification by faith brings you the assurance of salvation. Your assurance is not in what you do, but what Christ did in our humanity a little over 2000 years ago.

4] As you completely rest in God's finished work in Christ then a change begins in the mind and heart. The heart is transformed so that you begin to think as God does pertaining to His agape love. As you remain in Him by faith He works in you so that genuine agape is experienced in your life.

5] The problem, however, is while your mind is now in harmony with God's agape love, your human nature remains fully in harmony with sin - the love of self.

So as a believer you have these two conflicts inside. Only at the 2nd coming do we receive glorified lives free of all traces of self. Then, and only then, can we inherit eternal life. Our faith in Christ becomes a reality.

[Bravus]

Point. Missed.