Guys only- When was the last time you were in church, and ......

[Guest]

A Christmas truce then. We can do anything for one day....

[Kevin H]

Because if I wanted your opinion of why men in general go to church, I would get just your opinion. And there are lots of others who seem to have an opinion on this subject....So, excuse me if I don't accept what they say blindly...'cus I don't want your opinon of why OTHER MEN [or women] go to church...I want YOUR reason for YOU going to church...I want to compare it with what others record as to why men go to church...I want to know if what I am reading is true....

So, you go to church because ....

1] it's the right thing to do...?

2] your wife tells you that it's good for your family?

3] you got nothing better to do

4] you were touched by the sermon and it's the reason you keep coming back

5] other-specify

6] some combination of the above

I was raised by my Mom and Grandma who loved Jesus and was close to an Aunt and her husband and my cousin who also loved Jesus. My Grandma, Aunt and Uncle have fallen asleep. but I love Jesus and love to go to church to worship with others who love Jesus and those who are learnig about him. I love the Bible and love learning more about it and sharing. (and althought this has kept me going throught the years, but of course friendships are also a key ellement and friends from academy, college etc. and lately there has been a young lady who has been playing "peek a boo" and in the early stages of a friendship) These are all things that help

[Neil D]

Richard et al....

Since this thread is not going anywheres, maybe I can explain where I am coming from and attempt to put aside the hard feelings...

I have been reading about how to start men's ministry...the question of who and what are men has long been challenged by various factions within society. According to one book, the only long term definition of who and what men are and the ministrys that last are the ones that disciple men and work within the context of what men do.

In contrast, women are defined by the nuturing aspect of thier characters, by mothering, by giving birth...What do men do? Men are people of action, they are, by nature, people who will live for something bigger than themselves, who frequent those things that they deem worthy -that is, repeatedly trust those truisms/ activities that they feel worthwhile.

So, why do men go to church?

Church is set up for women...for nurturing. Women listen and then nurture the people around them into the church. [Hence, the comment about baptism.]This allows them to sit for an hour to a sermon.

Men, OTOH, are men who desire to do things. Church, typically, is not set up to do things..Men, typically, would rather go hunting, hiking, swimming, and they would rather do something [anything] with a bunch of guys who they are close with. Contrary to popular opinion, guys are set up for relationships...Society, OTOH, has emphasised individualism, the rugged macho man, the lone hero.

Hence, typically speaking, guys over the age of 35 do NOT have a close relationship with anyone but thier wife. There is no mentoring going on....

Specifically, men of society don't go to church. Stats show that about 66% of all US men do not profess any sort of faith. Why? Because church is not a place of doing...It's concidered a woman's domain. So, Why do guys go to church? Typically, the answers vary, but the major ones given is "it's the right thing to do", " my wife [family] asked me to", "It's for the kids", followed by "I came to worship", 'I came to fellowship\network with others".

So, supposedly, if you ask what keeps guys coming to church, you should get some of these answers. If guys are moved, as in moved like in a football game, they will, if given the opportunity, keep coming back...So what activities could motivate the typical male to keep coming back to church? the answer is only those things that move him, or that he deems as worthy to give his time for.....

the question then becomes, what current activities are those within the Adventist church.....?

[phkrause]

Richard et al....

Since this thread is not going anywheres, maybe I can explain where I am coming from and attempt to put aside the hard feelings...

I have been reading about how to start men's ministry...the question of who and what are men has long been challenged by various factions within society. According to one book, the only long term definition of who and what men are and the ministrys that last are the ones that disciple men and work within the context of what men do.

In contrast, women are defined by the nuturing aspect of thier characters, by mothering, by giving birth...What do men do? Men are people of action, they are, by nature, people who will live for something bigger than themselves, who frequent those things that they deem worthy -that is, repeatedly trust those truisms/ activities that they feel worthwhile.

So, why do men go to church?

Church is set up for women...for nurturing. Women listen and then nurture the people around them into the church. [Hence, the comment about baptism.]This allows them to sit for an hour to a sermon.

Men, OTOH, are men who desire to do things. Church, typically, is not set up to do things..Men, typically, would rather go hunting, hiking, swimming, and they would rather do something [anything] with a bunch of guys who they are close with. Contrary to popular opinion, guys are set up for relationships...Society, OTOH, has emphasised individualism, the rugged macho man, the lone hero.

Hence, typically speaking, guys over the age of 35 do NOT have a close relationship with anyone but thier wife. There is no mentoring going on....

Specifically, men of society don't go to church. Stats show that about 66% of all US men do not profess any sort of faith. Why? Because church is not a place of doing...It's concidered a woman's domain. So, Why do guys go to church? Typically, the answers vary, but the major ones given is "it's the right thing to do", " my wife [family] asked me to", "It's for the kids", followed by "I came to worship", 'I came to fellowship\network with others".

So, supposedly, if you ask what keeps guys coming to church, you should get some of these answers. If guys are moved, as in moved like in a football game, they will, if given the opportunity, keep coming back...So what activities could motivate the typical male to keep coming back to church? the answer is only those things that move him, or that he deems as worthy to give his time for.....

the question then becomes, what current activities are those within the Adventist church.....?

I disagree that church is setup for women. I believe men go to church for the same reasons women do. And as far as hunting, hiking, swimming, etc. women do some of that too. And all these can be done on the other days of the week, and some can be done on the Sabbath. I can't speak for others but I don't see that there even might have to be any reason for men, let alone women to go to church, other than to be with other believers and worship together, in what ever way we do. Some prefer to not go to church, but worship in other ways, like being out in nature taking in the breath taking beauty. Or gather together somewhere other than a building but outside, by a river, the ocean, etc. I usually go to early worship, and than if not taking my grandson to his SS class I go to my class. I prefer early worship to the regular worship, because for me, I don't enjoy the organ music, it over powers the singing, I can't even hear the person next to me singing let alone myself because its so loud. I prefer the quiet of the piano, but some find the need to bang those keys as loud as they can. I just enjoy the Sabbath period, for being the day that the Lord made for me (us as a whole). But if I miss going to early worship and go only to SS I still fill the blessing that I got for going. Sometimes when I've gone to the main worship service I don't feel that I've received a blessing at all.

[Guest]

I think you could clear up all the confusion by changing the word in the title heading to "Why" instead of "When". Nowhere in the OP do you ask the question: "Why do you go to church"?

Maybe a new thread would be the way to go.

I wonder why your books don't tell you that men go to church to worship God, and draw closer to him. That's the main reason I go. I think that's the main reason that most men go. I have never thought of the church as a woman's domain, like your book suggests. And I don't know of any men who feel that way. In fact, the case could be made that it's just the opposite, since it is mostly men who run the church.

Your book seems to be hypothetical, and built on a false premise, rather than dealing with reality. The false premise being- "that church is set up for women". It most definately is not.

The founders of almost every religion out there, are men. Those types of books, like the one you are reading, are designed to feminize you. Or maybe in your case, to further feminize you. By operating on the false premise that men are just brute beasts, and couldn't possibly go to church for the right reasons. And that church is a woman's domain. All false.

[Guest]

Neal, there is a book out there titled: "The Feminization of American Culture" by Ann Douglas. I think you could profit greatly from reading it. If nothing else it would point out that the views you hold are mainly feminist viewpoints, and that you have been programmed to think that way, without even realizing it.

Also, here are some links:

http://www.amazon.com/Feminization-American-Culture-Ann-Douglas/dp/0374525587

http://nstarzone.com/F.html

http://www.natvan.com/free-speech/fs9710a.html

[Gary K]

Neil,

Whatever it is you're reading, it's based on false premises. Men and women go to church because they recognize they have a need for God in their lives, and part of fulfilling that need in their lives is going to church.

The above isn't a male or female need, it's a human need, and planted by God in every human being, whether they realize it or not. Trying to understand spiritual needs and spiritual activity by looking it from a purely secular perspective is bound to lead you to wildly inaccurate speculation. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, not secularly discerned, and never will be secularly discerned.

Thinking you can "design" a spiritual ministry around secular activities is a major mistake. Doing that takes the mind away from spiritual thoughts. And, the idea that only women enjoy nurturing activity is ludicrous. Many men enjoy teaching, which is about as nurturing of an activity as you will find. Are you going to say only effeminate or henpecked men enjoy teaching? I think you'll find major opposition to such an idea both philosophically and the examples found in life. The best teachers I had during my school days, and have met outside of school during my life after school, were men, real men, who were great role models for young boys/men to model their lives after. The greatest teacher of all, Jesus, was most definitely all man.

Get your stereotypes out of your head and design your program for individuals, with individual spiritual needs that are common to all. If you advertise you spiritual ministry as a chance to hiking, canoeing, kayaking, playing ball, etc... you're going to get men there that come for that, not for spiritual growth. They'll sit through the other stuff, but will have little interest in it, as that's not what they came to do.

Oh, and growing spiritually is doing something. Learning is always doing.

[Guest]

Amen, Gary K!

[Neil D]

Quote:

I disagree that church is setup for women. I believe men go to church for the same reasons women do

um...would you guys like to explain to me why there are more women in church than guys on any given sabbath or sunday?

Ok, maybe my wording is poor here...but church IS more conducive to women than to men...

As for the "feminization of america"...guys, please...you seem to want to insult me by telling me where to look and what to read...

I'm already reading books by people who have looked this over...The premise from everyone is generally the same-

......Men have had thier idenity erroded from them.

As a consequence, they don't know how to be men...How would you define a man today? You can't say that the man is the head of the home...many men simply don't know how to lead in a home. They have had poor role models and the home has changed. Women are simply NOT gonna do everything around the home as it once was reported. The "Donna Reed" syndrome simply doesn't exist anymore....And those that do exist, don't last long....they burn out, and so does the marriage.

The books on men's ministry, and men as leaders all seem to dovetail together... define men as males who do, who care deeply about values that need to be passed on to the next generation, and who mentor younger males and are mentored by wiser males...The ministry looks for a safe place for men to unburden themselves of thier problems and to recommit to Christ and to look to Him as an answer to ALL thier problems...That's what John Eldredge-" Wild at Heart: Discovering the Secret of a Man's Soul" and Stu Webber and his "The Heart of a Tender Warrior: Becoming a Man of Purpose and other books ie "Men's Ministry In The 21st Century: The Encyclopedia Of Practical Ideas" or "No Man Left Behind: How to Build and Sustain a Thriving, Disciple-Making Ministry for Every Man in Your Church by Patrick Morley ,David Delk,and Brett Clemmer

You guys are preaching to the choir and are telling me that I am saying things that are not so...We are on the same page, but what bothers me the most is that you are putting words in my mouth that just are not there...

[Neil D]

The only time I'm moved in church is if there is a particularly good song played.

But my family says I never really get excited about anything. Which is odd, considering how emotional I can be.

What could church do to make you, personally, glad that you were there?

Is it just songs that move you, Sivart?

[Neil D]

I was raised by my Mom and Grandma who loved Jesus and was close to an Aunt and her husband and my cousin who also loved Jesus. My Grandma, Aunt and Uncle have fallen asleep. but I love Jesus and love to go to church to worship with others who love Jesus and those who are learnig about him. I love the Bible and love learning more about it and sharing. (and althought this has kept me going throught the years, but of course friendships are also a key ellement and friends from academy, college etc. and lately there has been a young lady who has been playing "peek a boo" and in the early stages of a friendship) These are all things that help

So, what differentiates your worship to those of the first century Jew who prostrates himself before Jesus as an act of worship? Why is it that the culture of the Jews, who never prostrated themselves before anyone due to the blasphemous nature of the gesture, would do the very thing that culture said not to do? IOWs, why is your reaction to Jesus not the same?

And not just you, Kevin....Why is our culture, our SDA culture, not unendated with these types of worshipful gestures in church? Why is our Jesus not as exciting as a football game? Why is it that we are not yelling with all our might, excited that Jesus has done something tremendous?

I'm just askin'............not accusin'.....

[Neil D]

Neil,

Whatever it is you're reading, it's based on false premises. Men and women go to church because they recognize they have a need for God in their lives, and part of fulfilling that need in their lives is going to church.

[Woody]

I've been staying away from this forum. And this thread proves the reason why. Amazing. I thought Neil did a good job of getting the discussion going and then it turned nasty. What a shame.

Let me try to address the question.

I attend church to give honor to God. If I am moved or blessed that is a secondary blessing. My purpose is to give honor to HIM and have less focus on ME.

[Gary K]

Neil,

The best books to study on human nature and how to reach people are the Spirit of Prophecy and the Bible. There you will be studying truth. It's human nature you need to understand, not the difference between men and women, for it's human nature that has the sin problem built into it. I believe Paul said it well when he said there are no differences in nationality, or between a slave or a free man, or between men and women, in Christ. IOW's, everyone has the same spiritual needs.

Your first need is to filled with the Holy Spirit. He is the only one who can reach the human heart, male or female. He is the only one that can give you the message you need to have for the people He draws to the outreach. All human knowledge is vain in this endeavor.

Remember the apostles. They drew huge crowds and preached with great effectiveness after they had been filled with the Holy Spirit, and men marvelled and took knowledge of them that they had been with Jesus. The disciples didn't go out and study the latest information on psychology or evangelism, or read studies about the gender makeup of the church. They spent time with Jesus, were filled with the Holy Spirit, and they baptized 3000 men in one day.

To be successful you have to copy what works. The disciples/apostles turned the world upside down in less than a decade. What's the church done lately with all its advanced studies into male and female needs? Not much compared to what the early church did, and human nature hasn't changed a whit since then. The only thing that has changed since then is our faith in God. It is now practically extinct.

Let me tell you about my experience preaching. I had never done any public speaking. I'd never created a sermon. When I knew I was to preach I would spend the entire week asking for the leading of the Holy Spirit in the entire experience because I wanted to do something for God. From the subject matter to the presentation I knew I was in over my head. Yet, when Sabbath would come and I had to preach to an audience of 200-250 people I'd get up and speak almost completely extemporaneously. Only rarely did I ever have to look at my notes. I spoke like a polished speaker. Everything came to mind when it was needed.

People in the congregation would tell me afterwards that my sermons were the best ones they'd ever heard, and pastors from other churches in the area asked me to speak at their churches. Best of all, our church began experiencing a revivial of spirituality.

Well, it wasn't me they were hearing, nor my speaking ability. I took a speech class a few years later, and I am not a very good public speaker. I couldn't come close to duplicating what had happened behind the pulpit in a class of 20 people. I got nervous, my speech was full of ahs, ers, umms, etc... and I would constantly lose my place.

There is only one answer for this and that answer is the Holy Spirit. God says that when we need to stand up for Him, to reach others for Him, He will give us the words. His word is true and can be trusted implicitly.

Your need is less of man, and more of God.

[phkrause]

I attend church to give honor to God. If I am moved or blessed that is a secondary blessing. My purpose is to give honor to HIM and have less focus on ME.

Great post Woody! Stop staying away. :)

[Dr. Shane]

I just saw this thread.

I was moved last Wednesday night during our church's guitar lessons. It was just the simple song of "I Just Want To Be A Sheep" that moved me but it was the message of the song that struck me. Everyone seems to want to be a big shot and feed their ego. Then we have these little children singing, I Just Want To Be A Sheep. The sheep aren't big shots. They just follow the Sheppard.

Sermons don't normally move me although they have at times. I am normally moved by music or small group study.

[phkrause]

Sermons don't normally move me although they have at times. I am normally moved by music or small group study.

I agree. But am not so moved by organ music, usually its solo's, quartets, etc. And like Richard mentioned baptism's are really moving, not all but many. One that was really moving and brought tears to my eyes was when Ron Halverson baptized his older brother a number of years ago at campmeeting for GNYC.

[SivartM]

What could church do to make you, personally, glad that you were there?

Is it just songs that move you, Sivart?

[Guest]

um...would you guys like to explain to me why there are more women in church than guys on any given sabbath or sunday?

Umm... Because there are more women in the general population than men. They outnumber men by like seven to one. It's not complicated Neil.

[Guest]

Neil,

The best books to study on human nature and how to reach people are the Spirit of Prophecy and the Bible. There you will be studying truth. It's human nature you need to understand, not the difference between men and women, for it's human nature that has the sin problem built into it. I believe Paul said it well when he said there are no differences in nationality, or between a slave or a free man, or between men and women, in Christ. IOW's, everyone has the same spiritual needs.

Your first need is to filled with the Holy Spirit. He is the only one who can reach the human heart, male or female. He is the only one that can give you the message you need to have for the people He draws to the outreach. All human knowledge is vain in this endeavor.

Your need is less of man, and more of God.

Amen!

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

um...would you guys like to explain to me why there are more women in church than guys on any given sabbath or sunday?

Umm... Because there are more women in the general population than men. They outnumber men by like seven to one. It's not complicated Neil.

Um... not even close. They're almost equal. There are only slightly more women than men.

[LynnDel]

I know I'm not allowed to comment here since I don't have the correct number of x's or y's in my genetic makeup - but I have noticed that the difference between male and female attendance is more pronounced in SDA churches than in other churches. It may be that it is much harder for a man to be a Sabbath keeper and hold a job in order to provide for one's family, I don't know.

[Guest]

Then why is it, in nearly every church, there are more women in church than men?

[Dr. Shane]

Does anyone really, truly get as excited about Jesus as they would about winning the lottery? Or do we just try to be as excited as possible because we're supposed to be? For me it's the latter.

I believe this has a lot to do with inherited personality. Along with that, I think "birds of a feather flock together". By that I mean, a lot of people that do get emotionally excited about religion tend to gravitate toward certain denominations. The Adventist church tends to attract those that place a great importance on Biblical truth - more than an emotional experience. So Adventists will tend to focus more on discovering truth than creating a church environment which causes a type of emotional euphoria.

That is not to say there is anything wrong with an emotional driven church service, prayer meeting or small group study. I am the type of person that really enjoys that kind of experience. I have only found that in black churches in the Adventist movement.

To answer the question, yes, I have met people that were as excited about Jesus as winning the lottery. And we should be as Stephen Curtis Chapman sings in his song "Live Outloud". The problem is that even many in that group have hearts that grow cold for our First Love. Like the foolish virgins, many do not have enough oil in their lamps to last until the Bridegroom comes.

[LifeHiscost]

1. They spent time with Jesus, were filled with the Holy Spirit, and they baptized 3000 men in one day.