Guys only- When was the last time you were in church, and ......

[Gary K]

Quote:

And you may be right, if the emphasis is on "relationships" where men are to talk...

Sorry, but the only path to heaven is a personal relationship with God. Without having that relationship, and understanding how to build a good one with God, heaven is a pipe dream. The only place to learn about the parameters of a saving relationship with God is the Bible. I've also found EGW's writings to make those principles easier to find as she categorizes information in a way that the Bible doesn't.

If a man isn't willing to spend time to learn what God requires of him, He's not very interested in heaven. Increasing church attendance for the purpose of increasing membership is the same mistake made by the emporers of Rome. The outworking of that was the dark ages and great persecution for those who clung to Biblical truth. Do you think that doing the same thing all over again will lead to different results?

[Stan]

Wonder if we should reactivate the old guys-only forum?

It was a private forum, not available for view. but guys could talk about guy things, and girls talk about girl things..

Thoughts?

Gary?

[Neil D]

Quote:

And you may be right, if the emphasis is on "relationships" where men are to talk...

Sorry, but the only path to heaven is a personal relationship with God. Without having that relationship, and understanding how to build a good one with God, heaven is a pipe dream. The only place to learn about the parameters of a saving relationship with God is the Bible. I've also found EGW's writings to make those principles easier to find as she categorizes information in a way that the Bible doesn't.

If a man isn't willing to spend time to learn what God requires of him, He's not very interested in heaven. Increasing church attendance for the purpose of increasing membership is the same mistake made by the emporers of Rome. The outworking of that was the dark ages and great persecution for those who clung to Biblical truth. Do you think that doing the same thing all over again will lead to different results?

I am sorry to be an ol' cogger here...but Gary, please....No one ever said that the path to heaven was subverted by emphasizing the horizonal part and ignoring the personal and discipling relationships [aka the vertical relationship].

But I am convinced, that while having that saving personal relationship with God, can be greatly enhanced by studying the bible, and having prayer and sharing with others what one finds, there are other aspects of manhood that are totally neglected. Come on, guys....the vertical relationship is a very important aspect to the cross....but, I am convinced that the horizonal aspect of the cross also enhances the vertical. Sometimes, guys, you can not see the God because you have no clue as to who He is UNLESS it is modeled to you by another man....

That is what I mean by the horizonal aspect of the cross. The bible emphesizes that fellowship is an important aspect to understanding the cross...And the books that I have read all point in this direction- If you want to get society right, then you need to get the church right...and if you want to get the church right, you need to get the family right...and if you want to get the family right, you need to get the marriage right...and if you want to get the marriage right, then you have to get the men right....

....and gentlemen, I suspect that we have been going about this evangelizing all wrong...

[Gary K]

I am sorry to be an ol' cogger here...but Gary, please....No one ever said that the path to heaven was subverted by emphasizing the horizonal part and ignoring the personal and discipling relationships [aka the vertical relationship].

But I am convinced, that while having that saving personal relationship with God, can be greatly enhanced by studying the bible, and having prayer and sharing with others what one finds, there are other aspects of manhood that are totally neglected. Come on, guys....the vertical relationship is a very important aspect to the cross....but, I am convinced that the horizonal aspect of the cross also enhances the vertical. Sometimes, guys, you can not see the God because you have no clue as to who He is UNLESS it is modeled to you by another man....

That is what I mean by the horizonal aspect of the cross. The bible emphesizes that fellowship is an important aspect to understanding the cross...And the books that I have read all point in this direction- If you want to get society right, then you need to get the church right...and if you want to get the church right, you need to get the family right...and if you want to get the family right, you need to get the marriage right...and if you want to get the marriage right, then you have to get the men right....

....and gentlemen, I suspect that we have been going about this evangelizing all wrong...

[Guest]

I am sorry to be an ol' cogger here...but Gary, please....No one ever said that the path to heaven was subverted by emphasizing the horizonal part and ignoring the personal and discipling relationships [aka the vertical relationship].

But I am convinced, that while having that saving personal relationship with God, can be greatly enhanced by studying the bible, and having prayer and sharing with others what one finds, there are other aspects of manhood that are totally neglected. Come on, guys....the vertical relationship is a very important aspect to the cross....but, I am convinced that the horizonal aspect of the cross also enhances the vertical. Sometimes, guys, you can not see the God because you have no clue as to who He is UNLESS it is modeled to you by another man....

That is what I mean by the horizonal aspect of the cross. The bible emphesizes that fellowship is an important aspect to understanding the cross...And the books that I have read all point in this direction- If you want to get society right, then you need to get the church right...and if you want to get the church right, you need to get the family right...and if you want to get the family right, you need to get the marriage right...and if you want to get the marriage right, then you have to get the men right....

....and gentlemen, I suspect that we have been going about this evangelizing all wrong...

[Guest]

And the books that I have read all point in this direction- If you want to get society right, then you need to get the church right...and if you want to get the church right, you need to get the family right...and if you want to get the family right, you need to get the marriage right...and if you want to get the marriage right, then you have to get the men right....

I'm beginning to think that the books you have been reading are just the vain babblings of men devoid of the Holy Spirit, who think they can solve things with psychology and whatnot. Gary K has given you the real answer to your problem two or three times now. But when you post, you talk all around it without ever once hitting on it. It's like watching a blind man grope around for something he needs desparately that's right in front him, but he can never grasp it because he can't see it.

Everything he has told you has been backed up by the Bible, and the writings of Ellen White. But not by modern psychology and statistics and the like. Maybe that's why you can't see it.

[Neil D]

I'm beginning to think that the books you have been reading are just the vain babblings of men devoid of the Holy Spirit, who think they can solve things with psychology and whatnot. Gary K has given you the real answer to your problem two or three times now. But when you post, you talk all around it without ever once hitting on it. It's like watching a blind man grope around for something he needs desparately that's right in front him, but he can never grasp it because he can't see it.

Everything he has told you has been backed up by the Bible, and the writings of Ellen White. But not by modern psychology and statistics and the like. Maybe that's why you can't see it.

You think, Richard, that I am reading books of "psychology and whatnot"...I have posted the titles and authors, who are sucessful ministers who are discipling men. If you don't know what "discipling men" are, let me assure you that it is getting men to return to the bible, and pray and read, part of forming a working relationship with Christ.

But it is also deals with todays issues that plague men... balancing work and family. The writing of EGW don't have a lot to say about directly...pornography is probably one of the top issues, also finances, and relationships between fathers and thier daughters and also fathers and sons....along with marriage issues, some of which EGW does address.

You have assumed that I am anti-EGW or havent read it. and why you make that assumption, I dont know...But let me assure you, I have read EGW and am familiar with her words and works...There is much she says that can be twisted and turned into whatever you want, or manipulate another person. We ADventists have a tendancy to stop thinking when we quote her...thus, we become people who can reflect her thoughts but not God's thoughts...Something that she condemns...

So, please, Richard...quit making assummptions that insult me and my faith. Just because you don't agree because you want to see us/me reflect her thoughts doesn't mean that it's the correct thing to do....

And remember, Richard...

The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity she will have to do in a terrible crisis under most discouraging, forbidding circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us. The members of the church will individually be tested and proved. They will be placed in circumstances where they will be forced to bear witness for the truth. Many will be called to speak before councils and in courts of justice, perhaps separately and alone. The experience which would have helped them in this emergency they have neglected to obtain, and their souls are burdened with remorse for wasted opportunities and neglected privileges. {5T 463.2}

If I am discipling men to be experimenters with thier faith, if I am learning how to deepen my faith such that I can hear the promptings of the Holy Spirit, if I can bring men to understand the issues of our times better than you, then God will have a formitable army of evangelists in my area....And that is what I am seeking...much to the discouragement of you and your ilk....So, before I am not allowed to post any more, I have only one thing to say to you....

Get thee behind me, Satan...

[John317]

...I have posted the titles and authors, who are sucessful ministers who are discipling men. If you don't know what "discipling men" are, let me assure you that it is getting men to return to the bible, and pray and read, part of forming a working relationship with Christ.

I'm all in favor of working to help men return to the Bible and pray and read, and I'm glad that you have such a deep commitment and interest in making disciples for Christ.

I wonder how the authors of the books you're reading view "discipling." Are any of the authors part of what is known as the "discipling movement"?

The reason I ask is that there are several different and even conflicting ways that it's understood and practiced. Could you describe how you see the work of discipling men and tell us sosmething about your experience in leading men back to the Bible and to build a loving relationship with Christ?

Here is one description of "discipling" as it occurs in some churches:

Quote:

The word "discipling" is used in this movement to mean much more than making converts. It is used primarily to describe a system of intense training and close personal supervision of the Christians being discipled. Disciples are regarded as being superior to mere Christians. Disciples are said to be Christians who have received special training. This training includes much more than mere teaching. There is an intense one-on-one relationship between the discipler and the Christian being discipled. The discipler gives detailed personal guidance to the Christian being discipled. This guidance may include instructions concerning many personal matters of a totally secular nature. The person being discipled is taught to submit to the discipler. Furthermore, the person being discipled is taught to imitate the discipler. Christians being discipled are required to confess their sins to their discipler. Such confession is followed by rebuke, correction, admonition, and prayer. If the person being discipled seems reluctant to confess sins, the discipler asks probing personal questions to elicit the confession.

Source: http://www.somis.org/TDD-01.html

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I'm beginning to think that the books you have been reading are just the vain babblings of men devoid of the Holy Spirit, who think they can solve things with psychology and whatnot. Gary K has given you the real answer to your problem two or three times now. But when you post, you talk all around it without ever once hitting on it. It's like watching a blind man grope around for something he needs desparately that's right in front him, but he can never grasp it because he can't see it.

Everything he has told you has been backed up by the Bible, and the writings of Ellen White. But not by modern psychology and statistics and the like. Maybe that's why you can't see it.

You think, Richard, that I am reading books of "psychology and whatnot"...I have posted the titles and authors, who are sucessful ministers who are discipling men. If you don't know what "discipling men" are, let me assure you that it is getting men to return to the bible, and pray and read, part of forming a working relationship with Christ.

But it is also deals with todays issues that plague men... balancing work and family. The writing of EGW don't have a lot to say about directly...pornography is probably one of the top issues, also finances, and relationships between fathers and thier daughters and also fathers and sons....along with marriage issues, some of which EGW does address.

You have assumed that I am anti-EGW or havent read it. and why you make that assumption, I dont know...But let me assure you, I have read EGW and am familiar with her words and works...There is much she says that can be twisted and turned into whatever you want, or manipulate another person. We ADventists have a tendancy to stop thinking when we quote her...thus, we become people who can reflect her thoughts but not God's thoughts...Something that she condemns...

So, please, Richard...quit making assummptions that insult me and my faith. Just because you don't agree because you want to see us/me reflect her thoughts doesn't mean that it's the correct thing to do....

And remember, Richard...

The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity she will have to do in a terrible crisis under most discouraging, forbidding circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us. The members of the church will individually be tested and proved. They will be placed in circumstances where they will be forced to bear witness for the truth. Many will be called to speak before councils and in courts of justice, perhaps separately and alone. The experience which would have helped them in this emergency they have neglected to obtain, and their souls are burdened with remorse for wasted opportunities and neglected privileges. {5T 463.2}

If I am discipling men to be experimenters with thier faith, if I am learning how to deepen my faith such that I can hear the promptings of the Holy Spirit, if I can bring men to understand the issues of our times better than you, then God will have a formitable army of evangelists in my area....And that is what I am seeking...much to the discouragement of you and your ilk....So, before I am not allowed to post any more, I have only one thing to say to you....

Get thee behind me, Satan...

I was really liking the post until you called me Satan. Over all I thought it was a good post. You did a good job of describing what you are reading, and why. And I really liked the EGW quote you selected. It was spot on.