Members phkrause Posted January 15, 2011 Members Posted January 15, 2011 Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
larryboy Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 Guilt? Never!! Unless,of course, the professed Christian is returning NO TITHE!I think that the concept of robbing God would be appropriate there. But motivation? Why not? What's wrong with testing God's claim to repay your sacrifices with better blessings? If one does so with the understanding that those blessings may not be in monetary terms,or may not be realized until after the resurrection, then why not be motivated by the challenge? Perhaps it is terminology.... However... Sacrifice is not tithe... For if I HAVE the income, it is not a sacrifice to give back His 10%. You cannot give what you do not have when it comes to tithe. Quote
doug yowell Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 Not sure why everything has to come down to democrats or republicans? Such a shame that we have to lower are standards to politics Doug. Quote: Another attempt at humor distained!! Than why not say republicans? Do you really want me to continue in the political vein,pk? No not at all, but you were the one that said your comment was humor. You could've easily have just said "politians" and not refered to one or the other! My lips are sealed. Quote
doug yowell Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 Guilt? Never!! Unless,of course, the professed Christian is returning NO TITHE!I think that the concept of robbing God would be appropriate there. But motivation? Why not? What's wrong with testing God's claim to repay your sacrifices with better blessings? If one does so with the understanding that those blessings may not be in monetary terms,or may not be realized until after the resurrection, then why not be motivated by the challenge? Perhaps it is terminology.... However... Sacrifice is not tithe... For if I HAVE the income, it is not a sacrifice to give back His 10%. You cannot give what you do not have when it comes to tithe. Quote
Members phkrause Posted January 15, 2011 Members Posted January 15, 2011 My lips are sealed. LOL :) Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
LifeHiscost Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 Quote: Than why not say republicans? Because it is well known that Demos are famous for wanting to get money out of citizens through the form of taxes. Republicans are known for trying to get government out of the pockets of the tax payers. Who was it that coined the phrase, "trickle down economy", more or less intimating that the deserving few who were able to handle large sums of money would release enough equitably, to take care of those at the bottom of the economic ladder? Yeah, right! Why is it that the name Madoff comes to mind. " “Is anyone thirsty? Come and drink— even if you have no money! Come, take your choice of wine or milk— it’s all free! Why spend your money on food that does not give you strength? Why pay for food that does you no good? Listen to me, and you will eat what is good. You will enjoy the finest food. “Come to me with your ears wide open. Listen, and you will find life. I will make an everlasting covenant with you. I will give you all the unfailing love I promised to David."Isaiah 55:1-3 NLT God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Woody Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 LHC .. I think you must be talking about something other than the kindler and gentler Republicans. Times have changed. Now it's the Demos who are after your pocketbook. :) Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Members phkrause Posted January 15, 2011 Members Posted January 15, 2011 LHC .. I think you must be talking about something other than the kindler and gentler Republicans. Times have changed. Now it's the Demos who are after your pocketbook. I know I'm not! So what do you have? LOL Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
LifeHiscost Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 Cryptic sarcasm. Saying that giving more than 10% back to God is an insult to God is itself an insult both to God and to human intelligence.Did you read Mark 12:41-44? Yes, I did read the verses, but being dense as I am, I'm still not sure who is being referred to as the deviant, nor why. The lesson I get out of those Scriptures is that the value of the gift is determined by how much sacrifice it costs the giver. But I do see how sarcasm may allow that it is who is explaining the Scripture's meaning as opposed to anyone in the Scripture. Recently I heard a comment, "the value of the gift is determined by the giver", of which I am inclined to agree, though perhaps not in all cases. God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
doug yowell Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 Cryptic sarcasm. Saying that giving more than 10% back to God is an insult to God is itself an insult both to God and to human intelligence.Did you read Mark 12:41-44? Yes, I did read the verses, but being dense as I am, I'm still not sure who is being referred to as the deviant, nor why. The lesson I get out of those Scriptures is that the value of the gift is determined by how much sacrifice it costs the giver. But I do see how sarcasm may allow that it is who is explaining the Scripture's meaning as opposed to anyone in the Scripture. My original comment was directed Tribe of Judah's "friend's" comment that giving more 10% back to God was an insult to Him. While the Scripture is full of examples of those who "insulted" God in that manner (including all of the faithfully giving Jews in the OT) I chose to use Jesus' commendation of the widow ( deviant according to the definition of ToJ's friend) who gave 100% back to God as an example of how God really feels about the principles of giving. "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" could have been employed as well as many other examples.The suggestion that God would be insulted by more than 10% is so sick that I thought it deserved highlighting for what it was. Quote
doug yowell Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: Woody LHC .. I think you must be talking about something other than the kindler and gentler Republicans. Times have changed. Now it's the Demos who are after your pocketbook. I know I'm not! So what do you have? LOL Uh oh,pk. I repent in dust and ashes.Besides,I think that everyone missed my point anyway. Quote
Members phkrause Posted January 15, 2011 Members Posted January 15, 2011 Uh oh,pk. I repent in dust and ashes.Besides,I think that everyone missed my point anyway. Your probably right, I know I did! :) Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
LifeHiscost Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 This is so true LHC. In the last three years I have put God to the test. And he hasn't let me down. I lost my job 3 years ago and was getting about 1/4-1/3 of what I had been getting from my job. Than last March my wife became disabiled, and even though we had lots of bills, etc. we continued to give back a portion of what he has so graciously given us. He has been so good to us its just unbelievable. Actually its not unbelievable, it truly is believable because as Malachi 3:10 states he will bless us. And I consider your personal testimony of faithfulness to the counsel God gives us, not only commendable but it is giving sure witness to God's faithfulness to His promises. "Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”" Revelation 12:10-12 NKJV God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
larryboy Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 Find it a bit troubling the discussion about tithe is confused with "offerings" and also has become convulted with what we "get back". To quote a famous author, "one should give for the sake of giving, not to receive something in return." If God did NOT "bless" us exponentially when one gives sacrificially, would that make a difference? Yet, that is where the topics head. Does that bother any of you? Why would that be needed to "give"? Why does reward have to be a motivator for any devotion? Do your marriages work in that childish way? Taking a step back it is an easy observation that someone touting "being generous" is nothing more than a way of tooting your own horn. This author also makes clear the value of giving without having to ring the bells and sound the trumpets so everyone around knows your good deeds. Just trying to put things in perspective. Also, DS, not to harp on the point regarding sacrifice, generosity, gratefulness, whatever you want to call it.... tithe is a function of INCREASE. Without increase, it is NOT tithe, merely an offering. There is no faith, or lack of faith, involved if tithe is not paid when there is no increase. How do you figure tithe on $0.00 or a negative $xxx.xx? If there IS no difference between Tithe and other offerings, why does our Church distinguish? Just something to think about. Agree that our hearts should be full of generosity, gratefulness and willingness but it is up to no one else to shame anyone else for not giving like they think you should when it is contrary to the Bible, or at least not supported. I could not, in good conscience, "give" an offering thinking anywhere in the back of my mind that I am going to "get" more than I gave. Quote
fccool Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 There are very few principles that taken out of the OT Israel state and carried over... with substantial modification. I think it would be beneficial for the discussion to consider the purpose of tithes in the OT and how these were administered. - It was a form of OT taxation. In context of theocracy (before Israel asked for a king) that was their only tax. It was meant to serve as a taxation system to support priestly order and welfare. It should be noted that most of the tithes were consumed by priests and those in need. - It was not given weekly. It's a modern invention to get the church business going (actually could be said that those robbing accusations are given continually because our pastors don't trust that God can take care of the church). - It was never given in money. There were plenty of money back then, it would certainly be convenient to do so (there was a provision for tithe to be converted to money for transportation). - It was given out of abundance, with certain constraints. Person with 9 sheep would not tithe sheep. - Tithing was to be done out of agricultural products. There were no commands to do otherwise. I.E., if a farmer would give a tithe of grain today, it would most likely to be rejected... and he would be requested to tithe in money. I certainly think that giving principle is more appropriate, because there's no limit on giving. You give as much as you can and as much as other people ask and need. Quote
GreatLakesGramma Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 The word "tithe" simply means "tenth." Maybe people you guys know mean something different, but everyone I've ever known to refer to double tithing simple means that they choose to give a second 10 percent as their freewill offering, divided between the other offering categories. Quote Catherine God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. Psalm 73:26. "To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you." -- C. S. Lewis
Woody Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 I've paid tithe faithfully all my life and I am living proof that one does not get anything in return for doing so. Why would I get something out of something that is not mine in the first place. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
doug yowell Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 Find it a bit troubling the discussion about tithe is confused with "offerings" and also has become convulted with what we "get back". To quote a famous author, "one should give for the sake of giving, not to receive something in return." If God did NOT "bless" us exponentially when one gives sacrificially, would that make a difference? Yet, that is where the topics head. Does that bother any of you? Why would that be needed to "give"? Why does reward have to be a motivator for any devotion? Do your marriages work in that childish way? Let not your heart be troubled,LB.I think you're reading into this discussion more than was intended.Since the Bible,from whence springeth the tithe and offering concept, speaks so often and clearly about the rewards of giving it would seem to be rather important to us to understand why,don't you think? And given the natural human propensity to act out of fear and ignorance don't you think that a careful study of why God offers incentives to give is helpful? As an example,many who don't tithe are afraid that their lives will be put in jeopardy if they do.The only option they see is financial ruin.The same goes for the inclusion of freewill offerings (see pk's post). So why would our reminding them that God will reward them (as He's already recorded in the Bible) for doing not only what is right but what is also beneficial for their own good,be a bad thing? Quote
doug yowell Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 Why does reward have to be a motivator for any devotion? Do your marriages work in that childish way? . Yes.That's why I got married.If I asked my wife not to expect any rewards in return for her giving anything to me.........this could get ugly!! Quote
doug yowell Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 Taking a step back it is an easy observation that someone touting "being generous" is nothing more than a way of tooting your own horn. This author also makes clear the value of giving without having to ring the bells and sound the trumpets so everyone around knows your good deeds. Just trying to put things in perspective. Here's another perspective to consider.Could someone argue that they gave because they adhered to a more virtuous motivation for giving and yet be merely playing their own introit? "For God is not UNJUST to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name." Can't any giving be made into an opportunity to make one's self look good? Quote
fccool Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 Yes.That's why I got married.If I asked my wife not to expect any rewards in return for her giving anything to me.........this could get ugly!! Maybe you should try it with her based on the giving principle proposed, because it really should work universally. After all, we are told to give people as God gives us. Maybe next time you give something to your wife, ask her a week later... "Honey, arn't you forgetting something.... where's my 10%! Quit robbing me! PS. I love you." Quote
doug yowell Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 I've paid tithe faithfully all my life and I am living proof that one does not get anything in return for doing so. Why would I get something out of something that is not mine in the first place. The answer to this question was explained perfectly by C.D.Brooks once when he remarked that "God gives us the means and then gives us the credit." (paraphrased loosely) Quote
doug yowell Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 OK cool, I'm still working on that one. Quote
doug yowell Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 Originally Posted By: doug yowell Yes.That's why I got married.If I asked my wife not to expect any rewards in return for her giving anything to me.........this could get ugly!! Maybe you should try it with her based on the giving principle proposed, because it really should work universally. After all, we are told to give people as God gives us. Maybe next time you give something to your wife, ask her a week later... "Honey, arn't you forgetting something.... where's my 10%! Quit robbing me! PS. I love you." I suppose that if what I gave her was my paycheck and she had spent it all on lottery tickets,Nordstrom's, and the all day spa and left me without gas money to get to work I'd have a good point.But I'm still trying to figure this one out. Quote
fccool Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 Let's say you give her a birthday present. A $100. She goes on to spend it on herself. Would you be upset if she did not get your anything, but instead spent some to buy her friend a lunch? Does God give us things expecting some of it back, or does He give us things for us to enjoy and help other people in need? Quote
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