The Tithe principle....

[doug yowell]

Let's say you give her a birthday present. A $100. She goes on to spend it on herself. Would you be upset if she did not get your anything, but instead spent some to buy her friend a lunch?

Does God give us things expecting some of it back, or does He give us things for us to enjoy and help other people in need?

I would suppose that the giving that God does is expected to be for the benefit of both.I also assume that as the giver of all He has the perogative to request any portion of those gifts to be directed in specific ways.If I gave my wife $100 and asked her to give $10 to a needy friend of mine then I think I would be justified in feeling cheated if she chose not too. Her decision to spend it as she chose to would say something about her love and respect for me. But it is a good question,and if you'd send me $100 (or more if necessary) I'd like to try the experiment on her this week. I promise I'll get right back to you with the answer.

[LifeHiscost]

I've paid tithe faithfully all my life and I am living proof that one does not get anything in return for doing so.

Not being able to read your mind, no one but God, except possibly yourself, can judge the motives that prompted you to tithe. The fact that you are living is proof that you are constantly receiving from Him. Your denial, if true, would prove God to be a liar if you are meeting the conditions He points out as being necessary for true tithing.

You might ask the question, "Am I giving the tithe to Him or am I giving the tithe on a 90 year money back guarantee in case He doesn't come through with His end of the bargain?"

I do notice that there doesn't seem to be a time element indicated in the promise and therefor if it has not been fulfilled to our expectations, it could be God is interested in finding out whether we will hold on to another one of His promises as well.

"...so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,

and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us"Ephesians 3:17-20 NASB

This below makes your conclusion unacceptable for me.

"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows."Malachi 3:10 NASB

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Let not your heart be troubled,LB.I think you're reading into this discussion more than was intended.Since the Bible,from whence springeth the tithe and offering concept, speaks so often and clearly about the rewards of giving it would seem to be rather important to us to understand why,don't you think? And given the natural human propensity to act out of fear and ignorance don't you think that a careful study of why God offers incentives to give is helpful? As an example,many who don't tithe are afraid that their lives will be put in jeopardy if they do.The only option they see is financial ruin.The same goes for the inclusion of freewill offerings (see pk's post). So why would our reminding them that God will reward them (as He's already recorded in the Bible) for doing not only what is right but what is also beneficial for their own good,be a bad thing?

This is a subject that has often come up. Many seem to see some kind of evil attached to doing for the good results promised. If that assumption is true then why did God give the promise. Did He not through His Son Jesus, tell us to pray, "lead us not unto temptation"? If doing something for the good that accrues to us for the doing, and it is evil to expect good for the doing, isn't Jesus then leading the seven churches in the Revelation into evil when He promises good will accrue to them if they do?

“Write this letter to the angel of the church in Ephesus...To everyone who is victorious I will give fruit from the tree of life in the paradise of God."Rev 2

" “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Smyrna... “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. Whoever is victorious will not be harmed by the second death."Rev 2

"“Write this letter to the angel of the church in Pergamum....To everyone who is victorious I will give some of the manna that has been hidden away in heaven. And I will give to each one a white stone, and on the stone will be engraved a new name that no one understands except the one who receives it."Rev 2

"“Write this letter to the angel of the church in Thyatira....To all who are victorious, who obey me to the very end,...To them I will give authority over all the nations.

They will have the same authority I received from my Father, and I will also give them the morning star!"

Rev 2

" “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Sardis....All who are victorious will be clothed in white. I will never erase their names from the Book of Life, but I will announce before my Father and his angels that they are mine."Rev 3

"“Write this letter to the angel of the church in Philadelphia.... All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it. And I will write on them the name of my God, and they will be citizens in the city of my God—the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven from my God. And I will also write on them my new name."Rev 3

"“Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea....Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.

“Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.”"Rev 3

All we need to remember is that it is not we alone who achieve these stupendous character traits or gifts, but it is the God Who dwells within us.

"Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think."Ephesians 3:20 NLT

God blesses!

[Guest]

Than why not say republicans?

Because it wouldn't fit. All humor has to have an element of truth in it, in order to be funny.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Than why not say republicans?

Because it wouldn't fit. All humor has to have an element of truth in it, in order to be funny.

Ah,at last!!

[phkrause]

Because it wouldn't fit. All humor has to have an element of truth in it, in order to be funny.

Ah,at last!!

Now that's funny to me.

[Gerr]

I've paid tithe faithfully all my life and I am living proof that one does not get anything in return for doing so.

Why would I get something out of something that is not mine in the first place.

While I don't give/return my tithe primarily to receive blessings, I'm living proof that God meant what He said that He will bless those who do what He asks.

[Overaged]

And we have also been able to walk up to some of the homeless that seem to be on every corner, and tell them Jesus sent us to help them. Maybe you can imagine the joy that gives, when you go to bed that night and realize you are the hand God used that day, to help someone know Jesus is concerned about their very practical needs, while He shows in the calamities of the world we need only to submit to Him to receive this grace,

God blesses!

I have had this same experience where God gave me resources to help people on the street, and I wasn't even tithing at the time. I can name several of them who turned to Jesus as a result of a hand reaching out in the dark alleys with warm mitts or food. I don't mean to argue with anyone; but sometimes I think this tithe business and the "rewards" thereof are misrepresented, or misunderstood.

I have had times where I was tithing; and I went competely broke, totally penniless. The Elders of the Church didn't waste any time telling me that I was not doing it with "enough faith."

I also saw one fellow who was "voted" out of the church office that he held for "not tithing;" and had they taken the trouble to look into it properly; they would have seen that the poor guy was out of work, and trying to get welfare to feed his family...He would have tithed if He had some money coming in.

When I tithe; or when I give a free-will offering, I just do it because I love Jesus, not to get a "reward." Or a "blessing." Infact; what is the difference between a "free-will" offering, and a tithe?" Shouldn't tithe also be of our own free will?

Sometimes, I just get the feeling that the church sees the tithe as a way to buy God off. You know what I mean. Ever see an Adventist in one of the medical-oriented professions, why they work all they want to on Sabbath, and much of that is not emergency work, and so they "happily" give God the money they earn on Sabbaths, but to me this is just paying God to let you work and keep that job. Yet, such ones will be the first to openly critisize someone else who doesn't have the right kind of "sabbath job." Lord help you if you are one of them.

[LifeHiscost]

Sometimes, I just get the feeling that the church sees the tithe as a way to buy God off. You know what I mean. Ever see an Adventist in one of the medical-oriented professions, why they work all they want to on Sabbath, and much of that is not emergency work, and so they "happily" give God the money they earn on Sabbaths, but to me this is just paying God to let you work and keep that job. Yet, such ones will be the first to openly critisize someone else who doesn't have the right kind of "sabbath job." Lord help you if you are one of them.

One of the principles that has released me from finding fault with anyone who is practicing their faith in a way different than mine, even if that faith comes from an atheistic mind. That is the principle that recognizes every man's right as given by our Creator to come to their own conclusions, whether or not those conclusions agree with the Word or not.

"One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind."Romans 14:5 NKJV

That doesn't make their conclusions right just because they have right to draw their own conclusions, but it does allow them the ability to act without hypocrisy, doing as they feel free to choose, as opposed to acting religious when in their heart they hate what they're doing.

For me to tithe without the knowledge that it is following His counsel, leaves me open to follow my own unregenerate heart, tempted to give every excuse under the sun to justify my own selfishness.

If you've been able to exercise generosity as a result of a heart unscathed by temptations to withhold more than one needs, then praise God. My own life's pathway is to preach the Word, whether or not others find fault with what it says, or if only my understanding is questioned. In the end each of us will answer for his/her own choices, not for another's misunderstandings.

"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority."John 7:17 NKJV

God blesses!

[Overaged]

For me to tithe without the knowledge that it is following His counsel, leaves me open to follow my own unregenerate heart, tempted to give every excuse under the sun to justify my own selfishness.

But it's wrong to mislead people and say there will be a "financial blessing;" in return for tithing. There is always a blessing; but not always financial.

[doug yowell]

I have had times where I was tithing; and I went competely broke, totally penniless. The Elders of the Church didn't waste any time telling me that I was not doing it with "enough faith."

I also saw one fellow who was "voted" out of the church office that he held for "not tithing;" and had they taken the trouble to look into it properly; they would have seen that the poor guy was out of work, and trying to get welfare to feed his family...He would have tithed if He had some money coming in.

.

Sounds like you need to find a different (and better)church,OA!!

[doug yowell]

Sometimes, I just get the feeling that the church sees the tithe as a way to buy God off. You know what I mean. Ever see an Adventist in one of the medical-oriented professions, why they work all they want to on Sabbath, and much of that is not emergency work, and so they "happily" give God the money they earn on Sabbaths, but to me this is just paying God to let you work and keep that job. Yet, such ones will be the first to openly critisize someone else who doesn't have the right kind of "sabbath job." Lord help you if you are one of them.

I grew up in the Adventist medical world and I never heard of or met anyone who fit any of these descriptions!There is no conscientious Dr. that would ever be in danger of unemployment if they chose to not work on Sabbaths.Are you sure you're not just overly skeptical or bitter?

[LifeHiscost]

But it's wrong to mislead people and say there will be a "financial blessing;" in return for tithing. There is always a blessing; but not always financial.

Did someone say financial return was the only way the blessing would come? Not to mention there are great evangelistic efforts based on the "seed" money theory of financial success.

BTW, do you think God is blessing you when you receive enough to pay your way?

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,"2 Corinthians 3:5 NKJV

"And God will generously provide all you need. Then you will always have everything you need and plenty left over to share with others."2 Corinthians 9:8 NLT

Some people believe there to be some inherent evil in money and anything motivated by money somehow places one in the unenviable position of being looked on as a second class Christian.

I do not subscribe to that idea and I do not believe the Word reveals that as a heaven born idea. Else God would not have identified so many of His servants as getting their riches from Him.

"...who fed you in the wilderness with manna, which your fathers did not know, that He might humble you and that He might test you, to do you good in the end—then you say in your heart, ‘My power and the might of my hand have gained me this wealth.’

“And you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day."Deuteronomy 8:16-18 NKJV

As this Scripture reveals, God Himself uses wealth as a means to establish His covenant, so it would seem to me if one is to take exception for the use of wealth to reveal His grace, perhaps it would be good to call Him on the carpet and ask Him to give His reasons, although I believe He's already explained Himself quite well.

God blesses!

[aldona]

Quote:

Sometimes, I just get the feeling that the church sees the tithe as a way to buy God off. You know what I mean. Ever see an Adventist in one of the medical-oriented professions, why they work all they want to on Sabbath, and much of that is not emergency work, and so they "happily" give God the money they earn on Sabbaths, but to me this is just paying God to let you work and keep that job. Yet, such ones will be the first to openly critisize someone else who doesn't have the right kind of "sabbath job." Lord help you if you are one of them.

Firstly: Let me assure you that I would much rather be at church (or sleeping in) than working on Sabbath for any amount of money. I put in quite enough hours during the week. You make it sound as if a medical person's job is some kind of fun hobby that we head off to on Sabbath morning, like a golf game or picnic.

Secondly: I have never criticized anyone for "not having the right kind of sabbath job" and I never will. On the contrary, I (and my medical friends) have often been the target of accusations similar to yours from fellow church members (whose motivation remains a puzzle to me - I can only think that they must somehow envy us for "being allowed" to work on Sabbath.) I have noticed, however, that they are very happy to take our money. And to ask for free medical advice/consultations on Sabbath, or any other day.

Thirdly: May I respectfully point out that of all the people Jesus healed on Sabbaths, none of them were emergency cases. They had been sick for a long time, in some cases many years.

Fourthly: I sincerely hope that you do not fall sick on a Sabbath, and if you do, that you do not come under the care of a doctor who has read your post quoted above. He/she might just decline to treat you. It would be no good to pay God off just for the pleasure of working on Sabbath, after all.

AJ

[larryboy]

Quote:

Fourthly: I sincerely hope that you do not fall sick on a Sabbath, and if you do, that you do not come under the care of a doctor who has read your post quoted above. He/she might just decline to treat you. It would be no good to pay God off just for the pleasure of working on Sabbath, after all.

I am assuming this was said TIC? Nice, why would anyone say such a thing or even think it? IF someone else "pleases" you enough -- or doesn't "displease", or hasn't said something in ignorance -- you then you would treat someone in need? Would such a person also be discriminatory helping those who have a need in other ways -- if they "deserve" it with self-appointed criteria? I am glad our Example and Savior didn't have that attitude or I, and you, would be lost.

"Forgive them, for they KNOW NOT what they do." Is there any question that Jesus's dying request will not be honored? Try to answer that question for yourselves without a "I have to do this, or do that, etc". It is all about perspective and it is generally pointless to have theological arguments with someone who comes at theology from an incorrect perspective for nearly any verse can be read with an incorrect slant. FORTUNATELY, our Savior won't "lock us out" and deny us treatment if we don't believe "well enough". Hallelujah!

[Gerr]

Quote:

Sometimes, I just get the feeling that the church sees the tithe as a way to buy God off. You know what I mean. Ever see an Adventist in one of the medical-oriented professions, why they work all they want to on Sabbath, and much of that is not emergency work, and so they "happily" give God the money they earn on Sabbaths, but to me this is just paying God to let you work and keep that job. Yet, such ones will be the first to openly critisize someone else who doesn't have the right kind of "sabbath job." Lord help you if you are one of them.

Firstly: Let me assure you that I would much rather be at church (or sleeping in) than working on Sabbath for any amount of money. I put in quite enough hours during the week. You make it sound as if a medical person's job is some kind of fun hobby that we head off to on Sabbath morning, like a golf game or picnic.

Secondly: I have never criticized anyone for "not having the right kind of sabbath job" and I never will. On the contrary, I (and my medical friends) have often been the target of accusations similar to yours from fellow church members (whose motivation remains a puzzle to me - I can only think that they must somehow envy us for "being allowed" to work on Sabbath.) I have noticed, however, that they are very happy to take our money. And to ask for free medical advice/consultations on Sabbath, or any other day.

Thirdly: May I respectfully point out that of all the people Jesus healed on Sabbaths, none of them were emergency cases. They had been sick for a long time, in some cases many years.

Fourthly: I sincerely hope that you do not fall sick on a Sabbath, and if you do, that you do not come under the care of a doctor who has read your post quoted above. He/she might just decline to treat you. It would be no good to pay God off just for the pleasure of working on Sabbath, after all.

AJ

Well said. Thank you. I am currently trying to volunteer my services (I'm retired) to a free clinic for indigents that is run by non-SDAs and is held on Sabbath once a month.I doubt their cases are emergencies.

[Overaged]

Fourthly: I sincerely hope that you do not fall sick on a Sabbath, and if you do, that you do not come under the care of a doctor who has read your post quoted above. He/she might just decline to treat you. It would be no good to pay God off just for the pleasure of working on Sabbath, after all.

AJ

Sorry if what I said bugged you, but I happen to know several people who deliberately chose a "health care job" just so they wouldn't have to worry about taking Sabbaths off. They personally told me so theres not much to argue about there. I have had some Pastors "suggest" to me that when I worked on Sabbath, I should give the money earned that day to some charity, like ADRA, and then I had another one tell me I shouldn't do that! The whole thing about tithing has gotten really screwed up in some places!

[Overaged]

BTW, do you think God is blessing you when you receive enough to pay your way?

God has blessed me equally, even when I don't receive enough.

[Overaged]

Quote:

Fourthly: I sincerely hope that you do not fall sick on a Sabbath, and if you do, that you do not come under the care of a doctor who has read your post quoted above. He/she might just decline to treat you. It would be no good to pay God off just for the pleasure of working on Sabbath, after all.

I am assuming this was said TIC? Nice, why would anyone say such a thing or even think it?

I agree. I would never go to a physician like this no matter how sick I was.

[Overaged]

As this Scripture reveals, God Himself uses wealth as a means to establish His covenant, so it would seem to me if one is to take exception for the use of wealth to reveal His grace, perhaps it would be good to call Him on the carpet and ask Him to give His reasons, although I believe He's already explained Himself quite well.

God blesses!

No one has taken exception to that. A totally different point was being made.

[Overaged]

I grew up in the Adventist medical world and I never heard of or met anyone who fit any of these descriptions!There is no conscientious Dr. that would ever be in danger of unemployment if they chose to not work on Sabbaths.Are you sure you're not just overly skeptical or bitter?

It happens more than you think Doug...there's no bitterness. It's just that when people appear to be saying stuff about those "windows of heaven" that is not true; I tend to question it.

[larryboy]

Yup, things have gotten a bit messed up... and it is always curious how some have all the answers for everyone else! I would stand by what I said, I don't doubt the things you said and wouldn't really be a "judgment" to wonder about someone's integrity and love in such a case.

[Overaged]

Thanks Larry; I appreciated that post. I guess to me, the tithe principle has gotten a bit warped, and I have had bad experiences with it. But I have also had good experiences with it. I do recall one time, when I was "tempted" to not tithe, because I needed $1200.00 for a course I wanted to take; and I would not be able to get that money myself, in time to get in on the course. I decided to trust God and tithe, and wouldn't you know it - a customer I had worked for, like 2 years ago contacted me and said: "I want to help you with that tuition. What is your address? I will send you a check for $1200.00 tomorrow." I was flabbergasted. Indeed, God had blessed me tremendously that day; and yes, it was a financial blessing.

There are other times though, when the "blessings" are definitely not financial. This stems out of our almost total inability at times, to recognize God. (Luke 24:15-16). When those "windows of heaven" open for us, do we recognize the blessings of God, when it is not financial? Are we so glued to the modern day "name it and claim it" ministries that we become poisoned against God, because that money we wanted/needed did not come?

I have learned by hard experience, that we can and must trust God, even in the dark. Even in poverty and privation. Even when the windows of heaven [seem like they] don't open. Far too often, we train people to treat the tithe like any other financial investment. You put in this much. You get that much. To be honest; everytime I hear "testimonies" like that, it makes me cringe, for the largest and best part of the tithe principle is only being followed "from afar." (Mat. 26:58)

[LifeHiscost]

...everytime I hear "testimonies" like that, it makes me cringe, for the largest and best part of the tithe principle is only being followed "from afar." (Mat. 26:58)

So then your suggesting that the advice to "prove God" as He tells us to is poor advice?

God blesses!

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

...everytime I hear "testimonies" like that, it makes me cringe, for the largest and best part of the tithe principle is only being followed "from afar." (Mat. 26:58)

So then your suggesting that the advice to "prove God" as He tells us to is poor advice?

God blesses!

I think you need to re-read what I wrote and stop twisting it out of context