Pedophiles and Sex Offenders in the Church

[LifeHiscost]

We've discussed this before, but it's a crucial point. The claim is that God's power helps people live better lives, but there simply is not the evidence for this. The exact same number of unbelievers live good lives as believers.

Even if *some* who claim to be believers are really not, some clearly are, so there should be *some* difference between the two communities, yet there is not.

Whatever God is doing in the world, it appears not to be helping people to live better lives.

It is an error to believe that professed Christians are all loyal to God, who say they are Christians.

"Loving God means keeping his commandments, and his commandments are not burdensome."1 John 5:3 NLT

"If you [really] love Me, you will keep (obey) My commands."

"Jesus replied, “And why do you, by your traditions, violate the direct commandments of God?"

Matthew 15:3 NLT

The vast majority of professed Christians have no compunction in dishonoring God's express commands. Therefor to hold them up as an example for Christian conduct is to ignore the fact that they have chosen a different master.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

If he repents ever so heartily, the church must let his case alone. If he goes to heaven, it must be alone, without the fellowship of the church. A standing rebuke from God and the church must ever rest upon him, that the standard of morality be not lowered to the very dust. The Lord is displeased with your course in these things. {1T 215.1}

There are times where it is not only appropriate, but necessary to have a "standing rebuke." Any pedophile who sincerely repents and seeks God would be understanding of this.

It seems God so thought also, in certain cases.

"...in the name of the Lord Jesus. You must call a meeting of the church. I will be present with you in spirit, and so will the power of our Lord Jesus. Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns."

1 Corinthians 5:4-6 NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Seems logical to me.

God blesses!

Well; not to be graphic or anything but the fig leaf thing was not related to the size of anything! How do you get that out of the Word? Certainly it has nothing to do with the OP.

[phkrause]

It is an error to believe that professed Christians are all loyal to God, who say they are Christians.

"Loving God means keeping his commandments, and his commandments are not burdensome."1 John 5:3 NLT

"If you [really] love Me, you will keep (obey) My commands."

"Jesus replied, “And why do you, by your traditions, violate the direct commandments of God?"

Matthew 15:3 NLT

The vast majority of professed Christians have no compunction in dishonoring God's express commands. Therefor to hold them up as an example for Christian conduct is to ignore the fact that they have chosen a different master.

God blesses!

Couldn't have said it any better LHC. Like I've mentioned on a few occasions, a Christian is one that follows Christ's example not one that just calls himself one. And Jesus never promised Christian's an easy life or free from hardships, I should know, have been through many, as we all have. The sun shines on the good and the evil, and it also rains on all. Was just reading a book to my 17 month old grandson called "My own Psalm 91 book". Verse 16 says "God wants you to live a long, good life. Lots of people live long lives but the only way to live a HAPPY life is by living for God." I thought that was pretty good. I think there are many who think they are living for God and there are those who don't even know it, but they are living for God.

[Overaged]

Glad you had a good laugh LHC; I am not so sure this subject is something to laugh about tho

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Desire is still not a process related to reason. Please address my definition as I stated it.

I will repeat it again, when I refer to the mind I am referring to the process of reason. There is no rational system that can explain desires that I know of.

Are you saying that your mind has no control over what you desire?

[LifeHiscost]

"God wants you to live a long, good life. Lots of people live long lives but the only way to live a HAPPY life is by living for God." I thought that was pretty good. I think there are many who think they are living for God and there are those who don't even know it, but they are living for God.

Precisely my sentiments, PK. God does not give me the right or responsibility to determine who is or who isn't moved by the Spirit in God's direction. He only asks me to determine by the pure Word, what He would have me do under the circumstances of which I have opportunity to be aware.

But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’

But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” Matthew 13:26-31 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Sorry. My bad.

God blesses!

[John317]

Are you saying that your mind has no control over what you desire?

Originally Posted By: cardw

Yes

Originally Posted By: John317

Is your desire a separate power, apart from you, that you can't control or change with your mind?

Quote:

Can you change the fact that you get hungry with your mind? You can deny it or ignore it, but your body is going to get hungry for food.

You can certainly choose which food you are going to eat, but you can't change the fact that you get hungry.

There's a huge difference between biological necessities like air, water, food, and sleep and our desires that are not grounded in such necessities but arise because of individual choice and personality.

There is no bilogical necessity for anyone to molest or rape another person. People can control their desires to have sexual relations with someone, and they can certainly keep from acting those desires out. That is what we're talking about here, not about whethe we can keep from getting hungry for food.

There is nothing immoral about desiring food or water or sleep, but there is something definitely wrong in desiring to have sex with a child. So we are talking here about making moral choices, not about whether it is wrong to satisfy biological needs in order to sustain life.

[LifeHiscost]

I think that pretty well sums it up.

God blesses!

[John317]

:-)!

[monty]

Well said John317, this is what seperates us from the animal kingdom!

[Sonny]

Christianity tells me that I commit adultery because I'm attracted to other women.

Let me make this even clearer:

Human nature is self-seeking! Human nature is always trying to ascend - be it socially, economically or academically - we are all slaves to this bent to self, i.e., outside Christ.

[John317]

Very true. I hadn't thought of it just that way, but it is certainly true. The animals simply go by their urges and desires and don't think of the rightness or wrongness of their desires. There are a lot of people in the jails and prisons like that and too many also on the streets.

[Sonny]

All these social ills are due to one thing: Living our lives without God.

"For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, [the result?] but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts [minds] were darkened." [Romans 1:21]

We need God! That's the bottom line.

[cardw]

There's a huge difference between biological necessities like air, water, food, and sleep and our desires that are not grounded in such necessities but arise because of individual choice and personality.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Christianity tells me that I commit adultery because I'm attracted to other women.

Let me make this even clearer:

Human nature is self-seeking! Human nature is always trying to ascend - be it socially, economically or academically - we are all slaves to this bent to self, i.e., outside Christ.

Sonny,

Dialoging with you is like talking to a "Speak & Spell"

No matter how many times you pull the string the same thing keeps coming out.

When you can address the concept being talked about with some type of reasoning then I will respond, but this repetition of the same thing without presenting any rationale or evidence is boring and frankly insulting.

[Sonny]

All these social ills are due to one thing: Living our lives without God.

That's all you need to know.

[Overaged]

When you can address the concept being talked about with some type of reasoning then I will respond,

You just "responded" even while saying you wouldn't. Nice thread hijacking here cardw. I noticed the same thing keeps coming out of your mouth too...you sure like to accuse people of being "dishonest," and "insulting." Are your sensibilities so delicate that they crumble like this everytime you can't convince someone to throw away belief in God? You eventually present the same agenda in every thread you post in. Stick to the OP; you maybe wouldn't have so many "insults" come your way.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

When you can address the concept being talked about with some type of reasoning then I will respond,

You just "responded" even while saying you wouldn't. Nice thread hijacking here cardw.

[Overaged]

It has much more to do with you accurately expressing what you are pointing out. We can only go by what you say

[cardw]

It has much more to do with you accurately expressing what you are pointing out. We can only go by what you say

[Bravus]

There is another alternative than that your interlocutors are being dishonest, cardw: they may simply not be understanding the points you're making. They may not be capable.

I'm not trying to insult anyone. Different people have different minds, thinking styles, abilities, backgrounds and educations.

Some people also intentionally block out particular ways of thinking and seeing the world.

You've laid out the argument clearly, but if you keep looking for evidence of understanding, you may be in for a long and frustrating wait.

[John317]

There's a huge difference between biological necessities like air, water, food, and sleep and our desires that are not grounded in such necessities but arise because of individual choice and personality.

Originally Posted By: cardw

So you get to choose your personality now? If my personality is not a choice and affects what I like or don't like then what I desire is not a choice. Once something is partly false it is false. You can't mix a non choice influence and a choice influence and call it choice.

Are you saying that since we don't choose our parents and our DNA, it means we have no genuine moral choices?

We don't choose our personality at the time we are born, but we do make our characters by the choices we make. No one has a ready-made character.

We also don't choose our IQ's or our natural talents or our body, and all of these things go to make up who we are, yet people still have genuine choices to make. People are responsible and accountable for their choices.

[John317]

There is no bilogical necessity for anyone to molest or rape another person. People can control their desires to have sexual relations with someone, and they can certainly keep from acting those desires out. That is what we're talking about here, not about whethe we can keep from getting hungry for food.

Originally Posted By: cardw

You're making a false choice. There is certainly a biological imperative to breed. It is as equally powerful as the need to eat. There is a biological and psychological need to be loved. These can be mixed up and directed in harmful ways just like eating the wrong things.

That fact that God made us with sexual desires and needs is no reason or excuse for people to make wrong choices, such as molesting and raping. People are able to choose whether and when to have sexual contact with others. They are also able to choose who they have it with and how they do it. Even people who have very strong sex drives are able to control it if they choose to.

Originally Posted By: cardw

You also keep presenting a false contrast. I did not say that one doesn't have a choice about acting out their desires. I said one doesn't have a choice over what stimulates them and creates their desires.

Yes, people do have a choice over what stimulates them and creates their desires. Those things are matters of habit and choice. They are not something that is imposed on us and which we have to submit to no matter what moral judgments we make.

What stimulates us and creates desires on our part is not static. They change according to our choices and according to our behavior. We choose our behavior patterns.

If people are unable to choose their behavior patters, they are often put in mental hospitals or are locked up for their own safety or for the safety of others. I worked since 1980 in a mental hospital and in a place for juvenile delinquents. All these people had various kinds of emotional, mental and behavioral problems. We had boys sometimes who had raped their mother or sister or both. Some of them had done such bad things that it was best not to know what they had done because it could cause staff to treat them differently. But much of the problem many of them had was that they blamed everyone else for their trouble and bad choices.