Pedophiles and Sex Offenders in the Church

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

What is interesting is that Christians are far less likely to consider the rights of animals and still have problems with the rights of women. How enlightened is that?

My point is the track record of Christianity is terrible.

Not having substantial evidence outside of the Word, I make this statement based on the Truth of the Word.

Most, if not all of the most egregious criminal activity is carried out by individuals who became aware of the Word and its' claims, then chose to shed accountability to its' rightful place in their lives, thereby shedding also access to the Holy Spirit Who is the only repository of all Truth and Who only can give the power necessary for personal victory over the forces of darkness.

There is absolutely no evidence for this claim.

Truth is proven by real world evidence not claims.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

There are broken partnerships and pain for the same reasons that heterosexual partners experience painful episodes in their relationships. So don't give me examples of gay partnerships that are harmful and generalize it for the whole group and imply that it's because they are gay.

The reason I stopped the practice was not because I was unhappy in it. Actually I was very happy in that sense. The reason I stopped was due to Bible study and my conviction that it was wrong for me to do it.

I respect your conviction, but I believe that belief in the Bible puts a lot of unnecessary burdens on a lot of people. Particularly in the sexual arena.

The only spiritual damage that I can see comes from shame and I think the Bible creates a lot of artificial shame for a lot of trivia. And then Christianity adds a whole lot of cultural rules and taboos.

[John317]

I believe that belief in the Bible puts a lot of unnecessary burdens on a lot of people. Particularly in the sexual arena.

The only spiritual damage that I can see comes from shame and I think the Bible creates a lot of artificial shame for a lot of trivia. And then Christianity adds a whole lot of cultural rules and taboos.

I understand what you are saying, and it is true that many people are made to feel this kind of artificial shame, but that is not the teaching of the Bible. That's due to a misuse of the Bible. The Bible itself tells me that each person, including pedophiles, homosexuals, murderers, and alcoholics, etc., are of infinite worth to the great God of the universe. So the shame that we feel because of our sins is something that God is actually trying to rescue us from. He doesn't want us to feel this shame.

As I read the Bible, it is Satan who wants us to feel shame, because he considers us and treats us as garbage. He does this because he hates the Creator and it's really the only way he can attack God and bring Him sorrow-- by attacking and harming people and other creatures which God loves.

The reality is that God lifts people up so they consider themselves as of too much worth and value to be a whore or prostitute or someone to be used and abused, involved in S&M and other perversions. God gives us insight so that we see these things for what they really are: harmful to our bodies, minds, and spirits. At the same time, he causes us to see other people as having great value to God and no longer as objects to be used for people's sexual pleasure.

[Sonny]

That's not recovery. Recovery is not having to stop yourself. It is a change of who you are.

Your nature doesn't change. The change occurs in the mind:

Paul states, "live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature."

At conversion your mind begins to do a 180. Before that Paul states that all unbelievers were "gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thought".

It's like getting your mind right. Before the driver was your nature. Everything you did was for your advancement. You were born bent to self. We are born selfish and without Christ we will continue this way, only as we get older we learn to hid it.

Only God can deliver us from temptation. Humanity has no defense against human nature. Humanism has no power...it is dead and meaningless.

[Bravus]

Except that every statistic shows it has exactly the same success rate as Christianity.

[John317]

What do you believe in when it comes to the power of the gospel in the world and in people's lives-- the Bible or statistics?

Statistics are fine for some things but there is no scientific measurement for God's work in our lives.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

That's not recovery. Recovery is not having to stop yourself. It is a change of who you are.

Your nature doesn't change. The change occurs in the mind:

Paul states, "live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature."

At conversion your mind begins to do a 180. Before that Paul states that all unbelievers were "gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thought".

Desires don't come from the mind, they come from the body.

The mind only thinks, it does not feel.

That's why recovery is not a change of mind, because addiction doesn't respond to reason. If it did it would not be addiction.

[skyblue888]

I read somewhere in the SoP that the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God! Isn't it why we read, "Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind" because the mind is the citadel. The battle is in the realm of the mind!

sky

[John317]

Desires don't come from the mind, they come from the body.

The mind only thinks, it does not feel.

That's why recovery is not a change of mind, because addiction doesn't respond to reason. If it did it would not be addiction.

But the body alone can't commit sin apart from the consent of the mind.

God restores our freedom when we are born of the Spirit. Before we're born of God, we are slaves of our flesh but afterwards, we have the ability through the Spirit to make the body obey the mind.

Sex is largely a matter of the imagination, which is a part of the mind, not the body. What happens is that the mind gets accustomed to certain kinds of stimuli, but the mind has the ability to reject the desire for those feelings.

[Gail]

I thought that the brain was the biggest sex organ...

[John317]

I read somewhere in the SoP that the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God!

Not sure what you mean. There are many people whose flesh acts contrary to the will of God.

Do you mean the flesh cannot act contrary to the will of man?

That is true. No one can be forced to commit sin. It requires the consent of the person's mind for his flesh to commit sin.

[Overaged]

quote=Stan Jensen] because one day, they will have a bad day, and cross the line. /quote]

Same with any other sin...adultery, rape, murder, theft....You are assuming once a sinner always a sinner.

While the sin of the sex offender is terrible, in God's eyes all sins are equal.

Now this will pee some folks off, but it's a true statement. If you don't won't too worry about your kids don't have any....But we do...we take risks bring kids into this world knowing it's rotten to the core. A little responsibility would help....I include myself. There are no guarantees in this world.

Sonny; I have not read the rest of this thread yet; but this comment of your's I think I would like to address. I don't think your comment is fair to the reality of such a situation. Being a pedophile, a person would always have some degree of consequence to his sinful life-style. It's kind of like the alcoholic, where they cannot trust themselves to be alone with a bottle - the pedophile will always be in danger of re-offending if precautions are not taken by a Church. Taking those precautions is by no means rejecting a sinner. It is protecting the children. Most pedophiles should be very understanding of this if they are truly interested in the Lord, and attending Church.

[Overaged]

quote=Sonny]This is not true about addictions; they are infact psychosomatic in nature; meaning they come from the mind - but this can affect the body physically. But I don't know that it is wise to call pedophilia an addiction; especially in light of your definition thereof.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Desires don't come from the mind, they come from the body.

The mind only thinks, it does not feel.

That's why recovery is not a change of mind, because addiction doesn't respond to reason. If it did it would not be addiction.

But the body alone can't commit sin apart from the consent of the mind.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Desires don't come from the mind, they come from the body.

The mind only thinks, it does not feel.

That's why recovery is not a change of mind, because addiction doesn't respond to reason. If it did it would not be addiction.

This is not true about addictions; they are infact psychosomatic in nature; meaning they come from the mind - but this can affect the body physically. But I don't know that it is wise to call pedophilia an addiction; especially in light of your definition thereof.

Pedophilia is not an addiction. It is some other disorder. So far as we know it is untreatable.

Addictions are not psychosomatic. Psychosomatic refers to a response by the body initiated by a belief. If addiction was able to change from belief, then all one would have to do is change their belief. Addiction doesn't respond to any reasoning.

Addiction is relief seeking from, according to AA, feelings of restlessness, irritability, and discontent. And these feelings come from resentment and fear that is generally driven by self centeredness and many forms of false empowerment.

[John317]

... the imagination is not a rational process. That's why the imagination is more often associated metaphorically with the heart.

The point I'm making is that the imagination is a process of the mind and is subejct to the peerson's rational processes. WE are responsible to God for what we imagine-- such as when we use our imagination to think of committing sin. A person knows when they are imagining doing things that are wrong, and at that time they choose to reject it or cherish it. Jesus said that mere cherishing of sinful thoughts is sin. It isn't necessary to act them out because the acting out of sin is the result of sinful thoughts. That is why Gen. 6: 5 says,

The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

So my point here is that we have control of our thoughts and desires, and if we don't, we can have and should have. We can train our thoughts and desires to be good ones and not evil. I know about this personally because if I didn't train myself to think good thoughts, I would continually be thinking of sex with men. If there was ever anyone addicted to these kinds of thoughts of the imagination, I was. It was a hard struggle for me to stop doing this, but the way I did it was to give my thoughts over to Christ and His Spirit, to fill my mind with thoughts of Him and of His word, and to reject the thoughts that I know God doesn't want me to have.

[Bravus]

What do you believe in when it comes to the power of the gospel in the world and in people's lives-- the Bible or statistics?

Statistics are fine for some things but there is no scientific measurement for God's work in our lives.

Huh? So the fact that exactly the same number of Christians commit every kind of sin and crime as do unbelievers is not, at least in some sense, a measure of God's work in their lives?

We've discussed this before, but it's a crucial point. The claim is that God's power helps people live better lives, but there simply is not the evidence for this. The exact same number of unbelievers live good lives as believers.

Even if *some* who claim to be believers are really not, some clearly are, so there should be *some* difference between the two communities, yet there is not.

Whatever God is doing in the world, it appears not to be helping people to live better lives.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

... the imagination is not a rational process. That's why the imagination is more often associated metaphorically with the heart.

The point I'm making is that the imagination is a process of the mind and is subejct to the peerson's rational processes. WE are responsible to God for what we imagine-- such as when we use our imagination to think of committing sin.

I said nothing about responsibility. Addiction doesn't care about responsibility. That's why it's addiction.

You are playing a game of semantics. Even the bible refers to desires and imagination as a process of the heart, NOT the mind.

You can expand your definition of the mind all you want, but I am being very clear that I am referring to the process of reason. Desire is still not a process related to reason. Please address my definition as I stated it.

I will repeat it again, when I refer to the mind I am referring to the process of reason. There is no rational system that can explain desires that I know of.

[John317]

You are playing a game of semantics. Even the bible refers to desires and imagination as a process of the heart, NOT the mind.

Do a word study of the use of the word "heart" in the Bible and you will find that the Bible's references to the heart are not to the literal heart but to the mind.

For instance:

"imaginations of man's heart." Gen 8: 1

2 Samuel 6:16

....she despised him in her heart.

1 Kings 3:9

Give therefore thy servant an understanding heart to judge thy people, ....

Psalm 15:2

He ...speaketh the truth in his heart.

Psalm 19:14

Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.

Proverbs 12:20

Deceit is in the heart of those who devise evil,

but those who plan peace have joy.

Matthew 5:28

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

2 Cor. 9:7

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give;...

NOTE: All of these references to the heart are obviously describing the processes of the human mind.

[John317]

Desire is still not a process related to reason. Please address my definition as I stated it.

I will repeat it again, when I refer to the mind I am referring to the process of reason. There is no rational system that can explain desires that I know of.

Are you saying that your mind has no control over what you desire?

Is your desire a separate power, apart from you, that you can't control or change with your mind?

Our desires can be explained by our choices and habits.

This is not to deny that the biological needs such as sleep, breathing, eating, drinking, and using the bathroom. But we can certainly control what and when we eat, what and when we drink, and when and where we go to the bathroom. For instance, I used to be addicted to sweets of all kind. I had an almost uncontrollable desire for them and would eat a whole quart of icecream at one sitting. I now no longer have such a desire. Why? Because I learned that it is bad for me, and I asked God to help me change my desires. Now I enjoy an apple with peanut butter about as much as I used to enjoy and desire icecream.

It's the same with my former desires for vodka, pornography, etc.

[Overaged]

quote=Sonny]quote=bonnie]DO NOT TRUST ME. /quote]

So all who use to be pedophiles say "do not trust me"? I doubt it.... /quote]

It matters little what you doubt.Where it came to my children and now my grandchildren I will err on the side of the pedophiles themselves.

A repentent pedophile will tell you not to put him in a position where he can easily offend again

Bonnie; I certainly agree with you on this. People who accuse church members of not doing God's will when a pedophile is closely monitored or even banned from the church need to consider the following counsel:

"I was shown that you had been wrong in sympathizing with E. The course you have taken in regard to him has injured your influence, and has greatly injured the cause of God. It is impossible for E to be fellowshiped by the church of God. He has placed himself where he cannot be helped by the church, where he can have no communion with nor voice in the church. He has placed himself there in the face of light and truth. He has stubbornly chosen his own course, and refused to listen to reproof. He has followed the inclinations of his corrupt heart, has violated the holy law of God, and has disgraced the cause of present truth. If he repents ever so heartily, the church must let his case alone. If he goes to heaven, it must be alone, without the fellowship of the church. A standing rebuke from God and the church must ever rest upon him, that the standard of morality be not lowered to the very dust. The Lord is displeased with your course in these things. {1T 215.1}

There are times where it is not only appropriate, but necessary to have a "standing rebuke." Any pedophile who sincerely repents and seeks God would be understanding of this.

[LifeHiscost]

I thought that the brain was the biggest sex organ...

I've heard the same thing. However you'll notice in the Word that when Adam and Eve experienced inner conflict after disobedience by eating of the fruit to which God commanded them not to eat, they were immediately moved to cover their sex organs.

If their brains were the biggest sex organs, wouldn't they have put sacks over their heads?

Seems logical to me.

God blesses!

[Overaged]

quote=Gail]I thought that the brain was the biggest sex organ... /quote]

I've heard the same thing. However you'll notice in the Word that when Adam and Eve experienced inner conflict after disobedience by eating of the fruit to which God commanded them not to eat, they were immediately moved to cover their sex organs.

If their brains were the biggest sex organs, wouldn't they have put sacks over their heads?

Seems logical to me.

God blesses!

Well; not to be graphic or anything but the fig leaf thing was not related to the size of anything! How do you get that out of the Word? Certainly it has nothing to do with the OP.

[LifeHiscost]

It was a hard struggle for me to stop doing this, but the way I did it was to give my thoughts over to Christ and His Spirit, to fill my mind with thoughts of Him and of His word, and to reject the thoughts that I know God doesn't want me to have.

I'm fairly certain there are some who would take nothing as proof positive evidence, not only that there is a God but also that He loves each and every human upon this earth. That is why each person must develop their own faith as opposed to receiving it from another person besides Christ.

"And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him."Heb 11:6 NLT

The greatest evidence I have of God's existence is found within myself, just as you have pointed out, in your relationship to Him above, John. At one time I had a sewer mouth, that early on I was convinced wasn't what God wanted for me. When awake it was a battle of will to a great extent, gradually escaping the habit by determination to change.

However, when it came to sleep, there were dreams that were beyond my control of which I was ashamed of, in which I knew if I didn't get help from someone with more power than I had, I would never change.

I took it to God in prayer, told Him I wasn't able to control my thoughts while sleeping, asked Him one time to remove the dreams from my experience, and I've never had a dream of illicit sexual behavior since that time, without any effort on my own part, and that was some 45 years ago.

Praise God from Whom all blessings flow.

"“I am the Lord, the God of all the peoples of the world. Is anything too hard for me?"Jeremiah 32:27 NLT

God blesses!

[John317]

What you say is so true, LHC. The book of First John as well as John's Gospel shows that Christ's followers get their greatest confidence of their salvation from their experience with Christ. No one can remove that evidence or persuade them that it isn't a reality.

1 John 2:28

And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.

1 John 3:14

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

1 John 3:18-19

Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

[19] By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him;

1 John 3:24

Whoever keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1 John 2:3

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 4:4

Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

1 John 4:12-13

No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

[13] By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

1 John 4:17

By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.

1 John 5:2

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.

1 John 5:14-15

And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. [15] And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.

Conclusion: Our confidnece in salvation is not based on having once made a profession of faith in Christ but is based on a personal relationship with Christ that has produced its proof, or fruit, in our very lives.