Seafood

[Dr. Rich]

Shane, Open up you eyes man, the words of Luke were NOT the same as the words of Jesus Christ. Everything Luke wrote about what Jesus said was hearsay evidence--not to be used in court for the same reason it is highly suspicious and can't be trusted. For those of you who believe the whole bible IS the words of God, then that is your choice--but Jesus only ratified (verified) the "law and the prophets" as being 'scripture'. When Paul wrote 2Tim.3:16 there was no such thing as a bible. Paul was only talking about the law and the prophets and as proof, read verse 15.

[Dr. Shane]

So when he said "every moving thing," it was already assumed that "every moving thing" would be from among the clean animals.

Genesis 9 contains instruction given to Noah but the account we have was written by Moses 900 to 1,000 years later. Point is that it is a mistake to make too much out of the exact wording. Rather we need to look at the overall message. If Jesus taught that we could eat anything, Peter obviously didn't grasp that message nor did the other apostles as they continued to teach the prohibition against eating things strangled and eating blood. We also find Paul still dealing with the issue of eating things offered to idols. So it seems pretty clear to me that Jesus didn't teach that all animals, or plants for that matter, are good for food. But those that want to cling to their own treasured beliefs are not likely to change their mind.

[fccool]

It appears that their longevity has a lot to do with genetics, culture and the omega-3s they are getting from a diet high in fish. There isn't much reason to believe the scavengers they eat are contributing to their longevity.

[Dr. Shane]

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I'm simply showing that it is possible to enjoy both long life coupled with diet containing scavengers.

There is simply no data showing that the scavengers have any impact on the longevity of either the Japaneses or Icelanders. Such an assumption is purely speculative.

60-year-old smokers that are physically active have a longer life expectancy than 60-year-old nonsmokers that are sedimentary. Concluding that the smoking must not be hurting the active 60-year-olds would be much like claiming the sea-scavengers are not hurting the Japaneses or Icelanders. Except we know for a fact that the smoking is indeed hurting the active 60-year-olds and no studies have been done on the sea-scavengers impact.

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People who eat mostly seafood seem to live just as long as vegetarians and maintain healthy lifestyle.

I think the Eskimo diet is mostly sea food and they have a lifespan of about 50 years old. So there is more at play than just diet.

[Nan]

Just a generic comment....I do not like cockroaches and

I look on these scavengers as the cockroaches of the sea..

and choose not to eat them!!

[Gerr]

Who said you can't eat those things? God said "Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant." Gen 9:3

If that was a blanket statement giving permission to disregard what He had previously said, then I dare you to have a salad of Oleander greens topped with Foxglove.

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So what is the problem now? When the Hebrews were out in the wilderness they had no refrigeration or stoves to make sure their food was cooked at the right temp so God gave them a health code (not part of the ten commandments) in order to help keep them healthy so they could enter into the land that was promissed to them.

Oh, and the unclean could not be eaten because they were the only ones that required refrigeration?

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Jesus said that it is NOT what goes into your mouth that defiles you, it is what comes out (words) that defile. And, when the nation of Israel ceased to be, so did all of the statutes, health codes, rules and regulations. But since the covenant was not incuded in these codes, then we still have the covenant.

Was Jesus talking about health or moral pollution? Was He saying that what goes into your stomach won't hurt you? If that is what He was saying, again, I dare you to have a salad bowl of Oleander greens along with Foxglove.

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Just because some idiot tells you that these foods are unclean does NOT make them unclean. Many Adventists have lorded it over others not to do things that they can't back up from the words of Jesus Christ. Ever since 1888 they started to pick and choose what verses in the bible they want to believe and which ones they don't want to believe. The truth is there--but YOU must first seek it.

Paul was a liar, and now Moses was an idiot?

[Gerr]

Just a generic comment....I do not like cockroaches and

I look on these scavengers as the cockroaches of the sea..

and choose not to eat them!!

What an analogy! Yeah, Dr. Rich, have a fried chocolate-covered cockroaches for dessert!

[fccool]

I think the Eskimo diet is mostly sea food and they have a lifespan of about 50 years old. So there is more at play than just diet.

I think it's pretty obvious that there's more to it than that, but that's exactly my point! There's no need to throw around claims like "Eat scavengers and live a sickly life".

In our day and age and environment there are no guarantees ... PERIOD! You may have the healthiest diet, and exercise regularly and fall to cancer because of other unknown factors.

I know a handful people from experience. It does seem unfair, but for that reason I choose not to make a huge deal of people eating shrimp. There are more important things in life.

[Gail]

Japanese women also walk to the market often (everyday?) to buy their food fresh. Walking and carrying groceries is great for avoiding osteoporosis, which they do.

They also eat lots of seaweed and tofu and that might also contribute to their longevity.

When I watch the sushi makers I notice that they don't use a lot of whatever meat they are putting into the sushi. Sometimes it's only a thin slice. If the Japanese do that with all their meat then they are not eating it the same as North Americans who eat slabs of meat at a time. When I order a sushi lunchbox (mine is veggie) I get tempura, miso soup, salad, tofu and rice as well as the sushi.

[phkrause]

Not only that, from many reports they are having the same health problems as here in the US. The city, I forget the name, that was mentioned in the NG article was a seacoast city where fish is the number one food and export. I also believe that the article also mentioned fish and not the savengers!

ps: the city is Okinawa, here's a link to a study of the city. Check out towards the end of this article about how they don't have the same problems as on the mainland.

http://www.okicent.org/

[Gail]

Life expectency in the States is 76? for some reason I thought it was higher.

Hmmm...

[Gail]

Maybe because in Canada it is 80.7 (just looked that one up)

[phkrause]

Here's the actual article I was thinking of.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2005/11/longevity-secrets/buettner-text

[Gail]

Not opening for me... :(

[Bravus]

The health point (as opposed to the taste point - anyone is free to not *like* any food) with these filter feeders is that if they live in clean water they will be healthy to eat, and if not, not. Emotive language about 'garbage eaters' and 'scavengers' might have an impact, but as I say, what they eat can vary quite hugely.

There have been a number of dodgy 'arguments' made in the thread, but after the debacle of the alcohol thread I'm not going to put energy into addressing them: people believe what they believe and like what they like, and will twist and turn and attack to support those beliefs.

[Dr. Rich]

Gerry, thanks for the personal attack. It's not about me and what I eat or not neither is it about you and what you eat or not. You and I were not there at the time of creation to know what was good to eat or not so what you wrote is nonsense.

The question was about eating seafood that science has proven to be healthy to eat regardless of your own opinion. Shrimp and squid are just a few of the healthest things to eat from the sea if taken care of and prepared right.

Moses was no idiot and neither was God. What ever happened to common sense?

I see that peanut butter was just pulled from the shelves because of bacteria problems--so it can happen to any food.

[Dr. Rich]

Shane, food offered to idols is an entirely different issue. That food was off limits not because it was unclean or not, it was because of what this is a spiritual symbol of. Food offered to idols means anything but the truth. Jesus came to this world to testify to the truth--and that is NOT food offered to other gods or idols. That is the living bread and wine!

[Dr. Rich]

As the comment: "There is simply no data showing that the scavengers have any impact on the longevity of either the Japaneses or Icelanders. Such an assumption is purely speculative."

Who every wrote this has not taken the time to do a simple google search on the subject. Yes, there are studies and many of them in fact. Shellfish have high amounts of glycusamine in them.

I stand on the words of Jesus found in Matthew 15:14-17 and Mark 7:20. Now, go eat what tastes good and enjoy it.

[phkrause]

The health point (as opposed to the taste point - anyone is free to not *like* any food) with these filter feeders is that if they live in clean water they will be healthy to eat, and if not, not. Emotive language about 'garbage eaters' and 'scavengers' might have an impact, but as I say, what they eat can vary quite hugely.

There have been a number of dodgy 'arguments' made in the thread, but after the debacle of the alcohol thread I'm not going to put energy into addressing them: people believe what they believe and like what they like, and will twist and turn and attack to support those beliefs.

There are no dodgy arguments going on here, at least I have not seen any. And if you are addressing my posts, than I wish you would post to my post and not to someone else's or through. Besides I do know you don't dodge anybody. I think my point is that God has given us a list of clean and unclean and I will abide by what he's asked. Personally I will not judge what people eat. And I'm not aware where anything has changed of the clean and unclean animals since than. Those that have scales and fins still have them and those are had either or still have either or.

[Dr. Rich]

God has NOT given US a list of what to eat or not. Please be careful from now on to make sure you don't include ME in your "us" list.

And if you don't agree with what Jesus said in Matthew 15 and Mark 7 then that is your choice, but His words are very clear to me.

[Gail]

God has NOT given US a list of what to eat or not. Please be careful from now on to make sure you don't include ME in your "us" list.

You might not think so, but apparently it's not only Adventists that follow that guideline. I saw Joel Osteen talk about it to one of his audiences, so more than just Adventists have believed it to be God-given.

[Bravus]

There are no dodgy arguments going on here, at least I have not seen any. And if you are addressing my posts, than I wish you would post to my post and not to someone else's or through.

Unless I specify differently in the post, it's best to assume that I am responding to the tenor of the whole thread when I post, rather than to the post immediately preceding mine or the thread-starting post.

The dodgy arguments I was talking about are primarily in Gerry's post in response to Dr Rich here: http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/427932/Re_Seafood.html#Post427932

Talk about poisons and cockroaches is just silly rhetorical pointscoring, and irrelevant to answering Cosmin's serious question at the start of the thread.

Arguments should be made with logic, with Scripture and with mutual respect, not with ridicule and reductio ad absurdem.

[phkrause]

Unless I specify differently in the post, it's best to assume that I am responding to the tenor of the whole thread when I post, rather than to the post immediately preceding mine or the thread-starting post.

That's fine Bravus, it just seemed you were replying to me, because your comment had a number of words I used. But I'll try to keep that in mind. Thanks

[Dr. Shane]

Shane, food offered to idols is an entirely different issue. That food was off limits not because it was unclean or not, it was because of what this is a spiritual symbol of.

No, you can't have it both ways. If Jesus taught that it is not what goes into us that defiles us but what comes out of us, that means NOTHING I put into me can defile me. Following that logic, I can eat blood, animals that are strangled, meat offered to idols and even other human beings (provided I didn't murder them).

[phkrause]

No, you can't have it both ways. If Jesus taught that it is not what goes into us that defiles us but what comes out of us, that means NOTHING I put into me can defile me. Following that logic, I can eat blood, animals that are strangled, meat offered to idols and even other human beings (provided I didn't murder them).

Great point Shane.