War

[Sonny]

But David was a child of God, and he went to war...

He also committed adultery, murdered her husband, etc., etc. Praise the Lord, let's do the same. No?

[Sonny]

Rom 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

[Gerr]

That makes it okay?

[

In defense of my family, yes! The commandment is, - "You shall not MURDER."

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gail

But David was a child of God, and he went to war...

He also committed adultery, murdered her husband, etc., etc. Praise the Lord, let's do the same. No?

Point being ... David was still the apple of God's eye despite the most terrible sins he committed.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

That makes it okay?

[

In defense of my family, yes! The commandment is, - "You shall not MURDER."

That's a bad argument. It's okay to kill, but not murder.

[Gerr]

[

G: In defense of my family, yes! The commandment is, - "You shall not MURDER."

S: That's a bad argument. It's okay to kill, but not murder.

G: You don't see a difference?

[Sonny]

You don't see a difference?

I think you are trying to legitimize sin saying murder is wrong, but killing is okay. It sounds like the flesh to me....

[Stan]

I think you are trying to legitimize sin saying murder is wrong, but killing is okay. It sounds like the flesh to me....

Robert, Robert, Robert.....

[Woody]

Quote:

Robert, Robert, Robert.....

Now Now ... it's not nice to give away identities. I thought he had done a great job of hiding the fact. :)

[ClubV12]

The old testament address', at least partially, this issue in the laws of Moses, which are many!

But as I recall it says something about a thief entering your house at night and then specifies conditions under which he can, or cannot, be killed. Or a thief entering your house in the day time, slightly different rules on killing in these circumstances. Again, as I recall, one of the circumstances was whether he was armed or not, day time or nightime.

We do have various state laws that address the issue today as well. They very from state to state of course. "A man's castle" kind of laws and the use of deadly force, similiar to the laws of Moses.

Now, perchance you DID kill the thief, but there was a question of it's lawfullness. He wasn't armed and you killed him during the day, for instance. You might have to flee to a "city of refuge" (cities that were always within a day's journey) where you would be safe from the victims family. Once there, the matter would be reviewed, for your good,or bad. It was lawful for the immediate family member's of one killed, to seek and kill the "murderer" if they could get to them before they reached a city of refuge.

So there is indeed a distinct difference between killing and murder.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

You don't see a difference?

I think you are trying to legitimize sin saying murder is wrong, but killing is okay. It sounds like the flesh to me....

Is it murder for the state to terminate someone no longer deemed worthy of existence because of the malignity of their crimes?

[skyblue888]

Yes David was a child of God and yet a man of war because like the other nations the Isrealites had chosen to defend themselves with the sword and God had winked at their ignorance just as He winked at their polygamy. There was no need for them to fight with the sword. When God delivered them from Egypt, the Israelites were unarmed and God delivered them without them having to fight at all but after the Red Sea crossing the next day they saw that the weapons of the Egyptian soldiers had washed to shore and the temptation to pick up those weapons was too strong and ever after they fought with the sword.

Did not Jesus say, "He who lives by the sword will perish by the sword." This goes to show that the principles of the kingdom of God's grace were never fully lived up to by the Israelites. They had chosen to be like the other nations and in the end they said, "We have no king but Ceasar."

Jesus is our perfect example. He never used the sword. How could He? He was the revelation of God to man.

sky

[Sonny]

Yes because they practice injustice. The rich man generally is not punished and the poor man is.

God has given the problems of this world over to its governments. That doesn't mean that He approves of how they handle things. He has done this because the human race, through Adam, chose another god - i.e., the god of this world.

Proof that He doesn't approve - compare:

Rom 13:1 Everyone must obey state authorities, because no authority exists without God's permission....if you do evil, then be afraid of them, because their power to punish is real.

Luke 22:25 Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles have power over their people, and the rulers claim the title "Friends of the People.' 26 But this is not the way it is with you; rather, the greatest one among you must be like the youngest, and the leader must be like the servant. 27 Who is greater, the one who sits down to eat or the one who serves? The one who sits down, of course. But I am among you as one who serves.

In Luke Christ is basically stating that our leaders are self-seeking - ie, everything they do is not as servants of people, but rather their own political agenda. Yet, even though their polices are bad, some crime is held back.

[aldona]

Quote:

"The harmonica excessively stimulates the nerves, plunges the player into a nagging depression and hence into a dark and melancholy mood that is apt method for slow self-annihilation. If you are suffering from any nervous disorder, you should not play it; if you are not yet ill you should not play it; if you are feeling melancholy you should not play it."

From my own humble experience, whenever I find a speaker or writer splitting hairs about whether the commandment forbids "killing" or "murder", it means he/she is about to defend their own favorite pet kind of taking life - whether it is abortion, capital punishment, killing in war, hunting for sport (when not necessary for self defence or food/clothing), etc, etc - while being careful to explain why it falls under the category of "killing" but not "murder".

I don't know about other languages, but in Polish there are different words for "kill" and "murder", and every Polish Bible I have seen says "thou shalt not kill."

AJ

[Sonny]

Yes David was a child of God and yet a man of war because like the other nations the Isrealites had chosen to defend themselves with the sword and God had winked at their ignorance just as He winked at their polygamy.

Very good....The more we understand agape the more we can understand the following:

"And they loved not their lives even unto death"

John 12:25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.

1 Peter 2:21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 22 "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." 23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

[Gerr]

So it was murder for the state to terminate Ted Bundy?

[Sonny]

So it was murder for the state to terminate Ted Bundy?

God has given the governing officials the responsibility to deal with sin. They do it very imperfectly.

Yes, technically speaking, sin is sin. Murder is sin. If not, let's change God's law.

Coveting is sin, yet we see no arrest here. Adultery is sin, yet there's very little punishment here also. Sodomy is sin, but now it's not. You can do as you please....Homosexuality is acceptable. Theft? Well it depends who is stealing. A rich man (as long as he doesn't ripoff other rich people) can rip people off with impunity. There are all types of injustices....

[Woody]

Quote:

Theft? Well it depends who is stealing. A rich man (as long as he doesn't ripoff other rich people) can rip people off with impunity. There's all types of injustices....

May I point out that our church can discipline you for stealing including disfellowshipping. But if you steal from the richest of the rich ... you are not allowed to be disciplined. (Of course we know that the richest of the rich is God Himself)

For you see ... you can be disciplined for stealing from anyone except for stealing of the tithe which is Gods. :)

[ClubV12]

A thief you say?

Interesting foot note: Mafia type organized crime is rampant in Japan. Drugs, vice, you name it. BUT, stealing is not allowed by organized crime, it could cost you your life and will certainly lead to expulsion from the "family". Honesty is greatly rewarded and is taught from a young age. Return that lost wallet, get a reward, a handshake, a smile. Keep it, and your looking at serious jail time. Great reward or great punishment, your call,,, what a concept. You know, it's not that far from the biblical principle, life or death, your call!

[Sonny]

Mafia type organized crime is rampant in Japan. Drugs, vice, you name it.

Then wipe out the mafia not those who are not committing crime. What a concept....

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

You don't see a difference?

I think you are trying to legitimize sin saying murder is wrong, but killing is okay. It sounds like the flesh to me....

Is that you Robert???

[Guest]

Very good....The more we understand agape the more we can understand the following:

"And they loved not their lives even unto death"

That is you!!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Very good....The more we understand agape the more we can understand the following:

"And they loved not their lives even unto death"

That is you!!

Well at least welcome him back Richard.

[Guest]

I guess we should be flattered that he wants to come back that badly. He obviously can't live without us. What else can we do but take him back?

[Woody]

Yes. And as the 'official' welcomer ... I am happy to welcome him with a Woodys Welcome.