War

[Bravus]

Haven't read this whole thread, but thought these lyrics were relevant. Won't tell you who wrote and sang them yet, but they make a lot of sense to me.

FOR THE GREATER GOOD OF GOD

Are you a man of peace

Or a man of holy war

Too many sides to you

Don’t know which anymore

So many full of life

But also filled with pain

Don’t know just how many

Will live to breathe again

A life that’s made to breathe

Destruction or defense

A mind that’s vain corruption

Bad or good intent

A wolf in sheep’s clothing

Or saintly or sinner

Or some that would believe

A holy war winner

They fire off many shots

And many parting blows

Their actions beyond a reasoning

Only God would know

And as he lies in heaven

Or it could be in hell

I feel he’s somewhere here

Or looking from below

But I don’t know, I don’t know

Please tell me now what life is

Please tell me now what love is

Well tell me now what war is

Again tell me what life is

More pain and misery in the history of mankind

Sometimes it seems more like

The blind leading the blind

It brings upon us more famine, death and war

You know religion has a lot to answer for

Please tell me now what life is

Please tell me now what love is

Well tell me now what war is

Again tell me what life is

And as they search to find the bodies in the sand

They find its ashes that are

Scattered across the land

And as the spirits seem to whistle on the wind

A shot is fired somewhere another war begins

And all because of it you’d think

That we would learn

But still the body count the city fires burn

Somewhere there's someone dying

In a foreign land

Meanwhile the world is crying stupidity of man

Tell me why, tell me why

Please tell me now what life is

Please tell me now what love is

Well tell me now what war is

Again tell me what life is

Please tell me now what life is

Please tell me now what love is

Well tell me now what war is

Again tell me what life is

For the greater good of God (x8)

Please tell me now what life is

Please tell me now what love is

Well tell me now what war is

Again tell me what life is

Please tell me now what life is

Please tell me now what love is

Well tell me now what war is

Again tell me what life is

For the greater good of God (x8)

He gave his life for us

He fell upon the cross

To die for all of those

who never mourn his loss

It wasn’t meant for us

to feel the pain again

Tell me why, tell me why

[ClubV12]

If God didn't kill all the people when the flood came, what do you call it?

Put them to sleep? :)

[Bravus]

If you take the OT literally, there's no escaping it: God is the most effective executor of genocide (of all genomes - at least it wasn't focused on a particular race) in the history of the world. We don't know the total world population at the time but taking it down to 8 from that isa 99.9999% kill ratio in anyone's language.

[John317]

Bravus, do you trust God?

Do you trust the Bible as His self-revelation? Or do you trust your own opinion above that of the Bible?

To say many of the things you do on the Forum, you have to reject much of the Bible as well as the Spirit of prophecy.

[John317]

Do we hate those whom we are trying to kill in war?

Can you love those who wish you harm ... yet out of self defense ... try to KILL them?

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

Wonder where in the Great Commission this is. Just sayin'

You won't find anything like it in the Great Commission, because the Great Commission is not for the governments of the world but for the disciples of Chrsit. God does not ask the govenments of this world to obey the commandmens of Christ. The govenments and rulers have a different work to do than the church. The state's responsibility is to keep law and order and to suppress evil, through force if necesssary. See vvs. 3, 4 below.

Romans 13:1-7

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. [2] Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, [4] for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. [5] Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. [6] For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. [7] Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

[Bravus]

I trust God, but that means sometimes not trusting all of the Bible and Ellen White.

Look around at this discussion: I simply weighed in to the middle of an on-going discussion of whether or not God kills.

My statement was not an indictment of God, it was a simple statement of fact. The Bible says God did it.

Those who want to argue that God does not kill must deal with that fact.

That's my point and my whole point.

[Bravus]

Romans 13:1-7

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. [2] Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, [4] for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. [5] Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. [6] For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. [7] Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

This one keeps getting trotted out, but if taken literally it would mean it was an evil action to be a member of the resistance opposing Hitler. Schindler would be a bad guy.

[John317]

I trust God, but that means sometimes not trusting all of the Bible and Ellen White.

My statement was not an indictment of God, it was a simple statement of fact. The Bible says God did it.

Yes, the Bible says over and over that God did it. It also says that God will destroy the wicked at the end. Do we say that also is untrue?

People have to decide whether to accept their feelings & opinions about this or whether they are going to trust the Bible and Ellen White.

If the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy are untrustworthy on something so central in Scriptrue as this, perhaps it is wrong on many other things.

Do you trust the Bible and Ellen White when it comes to telling us that Christ is both fully man and fully God? Or that homosexuality is a sin? Or that the last-day church will have in it the manifestation of the Spirit of prophecy?

My point is that once we start jettisoning ideas and teachings that we don't like for whatever reason, it becomes a matter of accepting what we like and rejecting everything else that we might find personally objectionable. At that point, people are no longer placing their faith in the word of God or even in God Himself but in their own opinions.

[Bravus]

Big important questions. Too big, and a bit of a threadjack, to get into here. Let me set it out properly in a blog post and start a new thread.

[John317]

Romans 13:1-7

Originally Posted By: Bravus

This one keeps getting trotted out, but if taken literally it would mean it was an evil action to be a member of the resistance opposing Hitler. Schindler would be a bad guy.

Who was ruling in the Roman Empire at the time Paul wrote the book of Romans? Wasn't Nero the Emperor at that time?

He was very much like Hitler-- a great tyrant who killed many innocent Christians.

How do you make sense of this, considering what Saint Paul writes in Romans 13: 1-7?

Is this an instance where readers should swiftly discard the counsel of the Bible because it appears to be spewing out nonsense?

[Bravus]

Oh no you don't. I want to know what *you* do with it. *Was* it wrong to oppose Hitler?

[John317]

Who was Paul's letter written to?

Did Christ or the apostles ever tell Christ's followers to take up arms against evil men or evil rulers?

[Bravus]

Please answer the question.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

And yet, God killed them ALL but a short time later!

False! God doesn't kill. God is an expression of His law. To kill would make God a sinner.

No Robert, God can't be a sinner. He is the creator, He created the law. Therefore He IS above the law. He can do anything He want's, and it could never be a sin. Totally impossible.

And yes God does kill. It's in the Bible from Gen. to Rev. You can't just explain them all away with coincidence that God had nothing to do with. Like I've seen you try to do with Sodom and Gomorrah. A volcano nearby. Haha

You can be sure that God chose how those people would die. First, He said He would do it. Then, He did it. Then, He said He did it. What you're doing is calling God a liar when you say He didn't do it.

And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. Gen 18:26

And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it. Gen 18:28

And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake. Gen 18:29

I will not do it, if I find thirty there. Gen 18:30

I will not destroy it for twenty's sake. Gen 18:31

I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2Pe 2:6

[shelly]

The bible clearly has a difference between war and murder. The bible records that the nation of Israel was to kill all of the inhabitants when taking posession of the promised land. We ignore that everyone from men, women, children, and cattle were to be destroyed. How can we now claim that defending one's lands is wrong based on the commandment to not kill. Moses had already recieved the 10 commandments when God instructed Israel to committ what we would call genocide today.

[ClubV12]

God has not changed. He is still and will remain in the "annihilation mode" when it serves his purpose until, in the end, the entire earth is cleansed (genocide on a massive scale if your prefer that word).

The tribes, peoples and nations that the israelites were instructed to purge from the land brought about their own death sentence. Just like Sodom and it's neighboring towns did, or the people of the flood and many other examples. When a peoples "cup of iniquity is full or almost full" God WILL take action. It may be a plague, crop failure, an earthquake, a volcano, a neighboring people making war on them, evil or good angels or man that will do His bidding. He has an unlimited number of ways to address the problem of sin. If a peoples cup IS full, annihilation is the last remaining option.

[Sonny]

He is the creator, He created the law. Therefore He IS above the law. He can do anything He want's, and it could never be a sin. Totally impossible.

[Sonny]

Please answer the question.

Romans 13 is speaking of a police force... Even within Hitler's regime you needed police to make sure things didn't get out of hand. The problem is that many laws go against God's law. Here in the states abortion is okay. So if as a citizen you tried to stop a doctor from performing you would be arrested.

I think we read too much into Romans 13. Basically Paul is stating that God has given the problem of this world over to the governing powers. Without a police force we would have anarchy. Even a bad government is better than none at all.

Here's another point: The Romans had Christ killed/murdered. So again we must be careful that we don't make that statement in Romans 13 more than it is. It isn't a blank check.

[Guest]

So He can't sin. Killing is sin, BTW.

Not to God it isn't. He created everything. So He can do whatever He wants with it, and it's not a sin.

It was a sin for Moses to kill one Egyptian. But God drowned a whole army of them in the sea, and it was not a sin.

Lets say for the sake of the argument, that God could sin. Who would you send to do anything about it?

[Sonny]

He created everything. So He can do whatever He wants with it, and it's not a sin.

[Sonny]

You need to read all the Bible.....As to Sodom and Gomorrah, let's look at bit closer:

How can I give you up Ephraim? (Not how can I destroy you) How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I set you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me. My sympathy is stirred. (Hosea 11:8)

Deuteronomy 29:23 and Genesis 14:2,8 give the names of all four cities destroyed when God poured fire upon the Cities of the Plain: Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim. According to Hosea, then, these last two cities, and by implication, Sodom and Gomorrah with them, were handed over and given up to destruction.

The implication is that God doesn't destroy, rather He gave them up - He removes Himself - He abandons those who reject Him. Why? Agape can't force or coerce. Hence, being righteous, He must move on.

What happens when God removes Himself?

I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us? [Deuteronomy 31:17]

What do you do with this info, Richard?

[Sonny]

He can do whatever He wants with it, and it's not a sin.

Oh, I see, do as I say not as I do! Our politicians are already doing a fine job of this.

[Guest]

I would vehemently rejected him and most likely die at his hands..

I guess the choice is yours...and therefore you do have that option.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

I would vehemently rejected him and most likely die at his hands..

I guess the choice is yours...and therefore you do have that option.

Yes, the choice is mine to reject your view of God. It's that simple.

[CoAspen]

Wow, I have now learned the Lucifer did not originate sin either....wait a minute..who was that masked man? God creates laws for others but not Himself......sounds like a despot!

Nope, reject that idea!

(cardw must be loving this train of posts)