War

[Guest]

Yes, the choice is mine to reject your view of God. It's that simple.

As long as scripture backs up my view, I'll be sticking with it, rather than falling for some cooked up idea that says the Bible doesn't really mean what it says.

So I'll go with what the Bible actually says, and you are free to follow what you think the Bible MUST be saying, or should be saying. No way we should take the word of God at face value, right?

[Sonny]

I'll go with what the Bible actually says,

Okay, which one?

"The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and He [the Lord] moved David . . . to . . . number [take a census of] Israel and Judah (2 Sam. 24:2).

Now Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel (1 Chron. 21:1)

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So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance, but he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore, He [God] killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David, the son of Jesse (1 Chron. 10:13, 14).

Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it” . . . But his armorbearer would not. . . . Therefore, Saul took a sword and fell on it. . . . So Saul . . . died (1 Chron. 10:4, 6).

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And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharoah which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go” (Exodus 4:21).

But when Pharoah saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said . . . But Pharoah hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go (Exodus 8:14, 32).

Sounds like what you say is not so cut and dry. There are many, many more statements like the above.

[Guest]

Okay, which one?

If you were willing to do God's will, you would be given the gift of discernment.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Okay, which one?

If you were willing to do God's will, you would be given the gift of discernment.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Richard ... I hope you are not saying that some scriptures are not true and we have to discern which ones are true and which ones are false. ??? If this is your intent. I have to strongly disagree with you.

In Peace

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Okay, which one?

If you were willing to do God's will, you would be given the gift of discernment.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

So you don't know? Just man up and say you don't. That's the honest answer.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I'll go with what the Bible actually says,

Okay, which one?

Both of them. Cf 1 Ki 22, Job 1 & 2.

[Sonny]

(2 Sam. 24:2) vs (1 Chron. 21:1)?

(1 Chron. 10:13, 14) vs (1 Chron. 10:4, 6)?

(Exodus 4:21) vs (Exodus 8:14, 32)?

Which one?

[Sonny]

While you are figuring that question out here's another one:

I [God] will strike the Shepherd [Jesus]. . . . We esteemed Him [Jesus] stricken, smitten by God (Mark 114:27; Isaiah 53:4).

Did God strike Christ? Did God smite Christ? No! But you and Richard will say - that's how it reads Sonny!!! Why do you question what God explicitly states?

Well, you need to read all the Bible. Not just those verses that makes God look and act like one of us.

So what happened?

My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? (Mark 15:34).

God removed Himself from Christ. He forsook Christ. Why? Christ became sin for us. He took upon Himself our God abandonment.

[Gerr]

Both of them. Cf 1 Ki 22, Job 1 & 2.

[Sonny]

Both of them. Cf 1 Ki 22, Job 1 & 2.

Sorry, I didn't reference those. Please direct yourself back to my original post. Tell me why God says He did these things when He didn't! Why is God taking the blame? This might help:

And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

What was the condition of those two goats? What were the qualifications of the two goats? Did the goats have to meet certain specifications? They had to be without blemish. One of them or both of them? Both of them had to be without blemish, so that you could interchange the goats. You cast lots and the lot falls on either this goat or the other. So we must be clear that the second goat doesn’t represent Satan as we know him but Lucifer as God created him, because both Christ and Lucifer were spotless.

Look now at the second goat for a moment. What is the name of the second goat in your Bible? In the KJV it is “Scapegoat.” In the original it is “Azazel,” and some of the modern translations will have that word. What does the word “Azazel” mean? In the Hebrew, words have meanings. What does the word mean? We do not know today because the Hebrew language changed in the ninth century and we do not know exactly what it means.

But here is what we have from the best of the scholars. According to the Hebrew scholars (these are not Christian scholars, but Jewish scholars), “Azazel” is the name of the devil. So the Hebrew scholars back us up. We do have not the Hebrew manuscript but we do have the Syriac manuscript, which is one of the oldest manuscripts. The Syriac manuscript for “Azazel” has this phrase “the angel that revolted.” Very interesting and a very reliable manuscript. Most Christian scholars interpret Azazel as the Scapegoat. What does scapegoat mean? If you looked it up in a dictionary, what does it mean? We use it in our English language.

Someone has to take the blame. That is the issue! When you deal with sin in a legal sense, as a transgression of the law, there are three things involved. First there is guilt. Then there is punishment. Then there is responsibility.

The thing is this: who is responsible for sin? One of the clear teachings of the Bible is the sovereignty of God. That means that nothing happens in the universe without the permission of God. That’s what it means. God is sovereign. Did God know that Lucifer would sin? Yes. Then why did He create him? That’s one of the big questions.

If God is sovereign, then He has allowed Satan to come in. He has allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve. This has created a problem and this was not solved on the cross. Let me give you an illustration. When Adam sinned and God came to visit him, what did he say to God when God asked why did you sin? He said, “This woman, whom You gave....” So upon whom was he putting the blame? On God. Today you will hear it all the time: “If God is love why is He allowing all the sicknesses and problems? If God is love, why is He allowing a drought in America?” These are the kind of questions that have to be solved if the great controversy is to come to an end.

So what does God do? God actually assumes the blame! He assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. There is a text - it’s in the Old Testament, where God is speaking. He says, “I have created evil.” You will find many texts in the Bible where God assumes the blame for many things. For instance God said, “I have hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” These texts cause a lot of problems to many Christians. You wonder why those texts are there. Well, it’s because God assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. Because He’s sovereign and He allows things to happen, He has to assume the blame. Does He assume the blame for a good reason? Yes. But we will not know it until the judgment.

[Gerr]

Both of them. Cf 1 Ki 22, Job 1 & 2.

[Sonny]